I have been thinking about which lands I should run in my mono colored section of my cube and at what size.
I have made a list below of what I think are the strongest lands in each color. Am I missing any? I would like to have a discussion which would be included a 360 staple, 540, 720, or 720+. I have listed my thoughts by color.
Volrath's Stronghold is really strong and I think should be in at 360
I think Cabal Coffers and Phyrexian tower are close 2nd and 3rds depending on what you are doing in black. I think running both in 360 is a pretty tight squeeze, and So I think it depends on which decks need more support. I don't think the other 3 should be included unless you are at 720 or bigger, and each one depends on what your cube needs.
I don't think any are really 360 staples
I think I prefer Barbarian Ring the best since it comes in untapped, maybee at 540
Then looming spires, but I don't think I would play this till 720.
The rest are all 720+ IMO Ghitu Encampment I think used to be better, but may have outlived its day with the full cycle of dual color manlands out there.
Kjeldoran Outpost and Karakas I think are the best cards. Kjeldoran Outpost I think takes the spot for consistency though and can be run at 360. Karakas is more cube dependent. in its Thread found Here people have mentioned there is not quite enough targets for it yet, but my cube at 360 has 24 targets and it has an effect almost every game it comes down. Kor Haven I think is probably a 540. I think smaller cubes should run only Maze of Ith, but I wouldn't blame people for running it Windbrisk Heights I thing is actually better than the other 3 cards in low powered cubes where 3 attacking creatures can easily happen, or in cubes which push a token theme. so either slower cubes or 720+
Gaea's Cradle thread is here and a reddit thread
Peoples opinion seem to be quite polar on this card. Probably from the types of cubes running it combined with the the high varience. I think it is better in unpowered cubes generally, but I can see even unpowered cubes not running it, especially if they don't want to proxy one. Treetop village I think has seen better days. If your cube has space for this, I would find space for the dual color manlands such as Lumbering Falls Yavimaya Hollow probably belongs only in bigger lists of 720 or bigger. Regenerate a target creature can be good, but smaller cubes I think are to tight with the drawback of tC
I think blue land cards depend highly on Powered vs unpowered environment.
In a powered Environment I think tolarian Academy and academy ruins take the cake if artifacts are supported.
In unpowered I think Academy Ruins is better since you will lack the 0 cost artifacts. (albeit some exceptions).
In an unpowered cube without artifact support I think Shelldock Isle is the better land to have. Tolaria West I think is an interesting card, as it can help Blue splash for an extra color but I don't consider it a staple. possibly good at 540+
Faerie Conclave has tough competition with other man lands such as creeping tar pit and celestial colonnade, but many people have had positive results with it.
Riptide Laboratory - has a small discussion here. I think the consensus is that there are not enough targets for it to be competitive, but tribal cubes, and large cubes might want it.
What do you think of my analysis? Am I missing anything?
What did I get wrong? I have not been cubing for very long, so I am sure that much of my analysis has flaws. Plus I have never cubed with power so take it with an entire block of salt
At 450 I only run Faerie Conclave, Volrath's Stronghold, and Treetop Village, although I keep adding Shelldock Isle and taking it out again. If I were running a powered cube I'd definitely include Tolarian Academy and probably Academy Ruins as well, and the only thing keeping me from running Gaea's Cradle is the price tag. I don't think it's really necessary to have a utility land in each color, and the rest don't really get there based on power level for me. If you really want your decks to have access to these lands, though, you might try including them in a separate utility land draft.
This thread probably belongs in the Card and Archetype Discussion thread, maybe a mod could move it there?
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We like 1 per color, and have Stronghold, Ring, Haven, Tolaria West, and Cradle right now. Cradle and Stronghold are noticeably above the others in power. Closest swap would probably be Heights for Haven, but I could also see cutting Tolaria West (it's kind of a pet card).
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
You are using the term 720 very liberally, most lands here are far from playable at that size.
In white Karakas and Kor Haven are great. Kjeldoran Outpost played poorly here, the drawback is real and the upside is slow and low impact in most decks. It was cut over five years ago. Windbrisk Heights requires specific conditions to be playable, has a very relevant drawback for the decks that want to play it and triggering it is often a win more.
Shelldock Isle is the best blue land, but Faerie Conclave also sees play every draft and punches players and planeswalkers. Tolarian Academy and Academy Ruins require blue artifacts to be a supported archetype, but they are up there if you do. I did not see many lists playing Tolaria West, there are few worthy targets to tutor with it.
Volrath's Stronghold is the strongest black land and Urborg will often table yet always make maindecks. Mortuary Mire is also surprisingly useful despite reading bad. The rest of what you have written is unplayable in 720.
I do not play any red lands currently. ETBT is a terrible drawback in aggro decks. Ghitu Encampment was played for the longest amount of time, but a 2/1 first strike body was too often irrelevant by the time you want to be attacking with man lands. Barbarian Ring was rarely activated yet the damage piles up quickly, especially in aggro mirrors.
Treetop Village and Gaea's Cradle are both strong green cards. I haven't played Yavimaya Hollow but judging on how painful it is to keep mana up for Thrun, I do not expect it to do well.
I like hanweir outpost? I think is the name, for red. Giving haste is nice in dial colored decks
Hanweir battlements i think this is the best option for red. more so if you run hanweir garrison which is a great cube card in its own right although the meld will likely never come together.
Why is your opinion on this card that it is now marginally playable? In the cards thread you mentioned you also liked cabal pit, and felt urborg wasn't worth the place in cube? has your opinion on the card changed over the years? or am I misunderstanding you?
Do you think this card is better than Tower and Coffers?
No. I think that Stronghold is good, and none of the other ones are. If you're supporting some kind of mono-black build, Urborg might be the best second option, but it's just not all that exciting.
No. I think that Stronghold is good, and none of the other ones are. If you're supporting some kind of mono-black build, Urborg might be the best second option, but it's just not all that exciting.
Agreed with this. Urborg is very much one-half of a two-card combo several times over, and cards like that are the ones that tend to slide out of cubes first - they do nothing by themselves, and need you to have drafted something else first to be considered. Cabal Coffers is OK, but I cut it for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and haven't looked back.
My favorite mono-colored nonbasics are the 5 onslaught cycle lands (Secluded Steppe, et all). Cycling is one the most powerful abilities in the game, and to have that on a land at a cost of only one colored mana is great. Sweet synergy with bouncelands for those running them (which also go really well with temples - scry another wonderful mechanic).
General comments...
Volraths' Stronghold is a card that gets much better as the quality of your creatures goes up and if you run a very high variance between your top cards and weakest cards (powered lists for instance). In much the same way tutors are amazing in combo focused lists and not nearly as powerful in more midrange focusesd lists. Same thing applies to stronghold. Is the creature worth spending 1B extra to get back to re-use versus playing the next card you draw or what you have in your hand?
In powered lists, this very likely does not apply but in unpowered lists where ramping mana early is hard to come by, Lake of the Dead is actually a pretty insane card. High risk/high reward. The more good stuff focused a cube list is, the less likely there is enough incentive to go mono (or heavily mono). Black has the best devotion support though, so it's the easiest color to make viable.
Tolarian Academy is insane if you have the density of artifacts. Playable in even unpowered if picked early. Academy Ruins is a more limited version of Volraths' with all the same cube design constraints applying. I agree though that Shelldock Isle is likely the most powerful blue land in your average unpowered list.
Red and white have crap (other than cycle lands). Green has Treetop Village, which is awesome and very much a flavor win IMO. If I had to pick just one, that would be the one.
To be honest, my choice for red would be Great Furnace at this point. I don't like Ghitu Encampment or Barbarian Ring a ton, and although Hanweir Battlements isn't terrible by any means, Furnace is pretty abusable in red now. I feel like the risk-reward scenario of the artifact lands fits best in red.
After getting both Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Daretti, Scrap Savant, I added Great Furnace as my "red" land. Swapped it for Hanweir Battlements to make the Writhing Township achievement possible. After the first draft with it, the player playing it said: "I should have run a mountain instead." He did note that it could use some more testing though.
I do like the idea of running Kher Keep in that slot. There are a bunch of cards that would like the constant token fodder.
We've messed around with Phyrexian Tower off and on a while back and it performed pretty well for us. Having an instant speed sac outlet on-hand at all times is powerful and the ability to ramp your mana is also great. We ended up cutting it because it was so hard to categorize because it seemed that non-black token decks were taking it all the time just to have a little extra ramp. I haven't re-tested since adding C mana to my cube but I imagine it would be better now... but my black section is MUCH tighter than it was a year ago.
Casual EDH cube, so a lot of my experience doesn't translate, but:
In white I run Ancient Den and nothing else, and that's a strong consideration for a cut since white is the weakest color in the artifact subtheme. Jor Kadeen likes it, but I doubt anyone else cares. Most of the white lands are garbage, but I'm considering picking up a Kor Haven expedition the next time I order singles since another maze that taps for mana seems like a card worth testing.
In blue there's Seat of the Synod, which I really need to cut because blue doesn't even have Jor Kadeen to justify its existence, and Faerie Conclave, which is incredibly strong like everyone else has said even in EDH cube; the ability to bop planeswalkers with lands is good in a cube so dense with walkers. Academy Ruins would have a slot if I wasn't agonizing over the 20$ price tag. Shelldock Isle is actually really terrible in my cube since it's 60 card decks.
Black is pretty spicy. Despite not being a popular cube inclusion Bojuka Bog is a staple in EDH and my cube has a lot of dredge and heavy graveyard based (11/62) and in general my cube gets a lot of value out of graveyards, so hitting someone with bog is actually pretty solid. Separately, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is a solid fixing card and Cabal Coffers incentivizes mono-black, (mono colors need incentives to be worth building) but I've found my players love playing the Urborg/Coffers lottery and when it works it's big game. Keeping both in because they're fun and both have their own purpose. Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower would both be considerations if they weren't so damn expensive.
Red is in an interesting place. Red is the only color that I should be justifying the artifact land in since multiple generals actually want it, but I'm not running Great Furnace because, ironically, red for me actually has plenty of lands I want in its place. (Which is funny because everyone here kinda agrees red has bad offerings for normal cube) Kher Keep is solid because sacrifice and token themes exist in red, and my EDH cube is much slower and more durdly which allows it to be milked for value. Spinerock Knoll is quite usable since life totals are high enough that a 7 damage turn is very common without heavily swinging the game, and it requires basically no commitment since anyone else can trigger it for you.
Green has no non-fixing lands in my cube, which I really should rectify. Blighted Woodlands is an easy include that I just never bothered to add after it came out. Oran-Rief, the Vastwood warrants testing. Without as strong of evasion Treetop Village actually loses it's shine in EDH cube unlike Faerie Conclave, as the ground is often quite gummed up.
As a sidenote, I include both Mirrorpool and Sea Gate Wreckage as colorless lands and am excited to see if anyone makes use of them. If they're bad they'll come out, but I'm interested to see.
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I forgot about Kor Haven. It's a tedious card to play against which is why it's not in either of my lists. I think it gets in on power level, so I fully expect you will not be disappointed. Maze is more powerful obviously, but not as much as it might appear (tapping for mana early is very relevant).
I'm in the process of getting a list together to go powered in my 450. It's going to be about 20 cards coming in, including Gaea's Cradle, which has me thinking about green lands.
Curious: what are opinions on Treetop Village in these times of 10 dual creature lands in the cube? Faerie Conclave is tough to cut, even though it's a 3rd blue land in my list, because it's cheap planeswalker removal in blue. Treetop seems a little more redundant in green than Conclave is in blue, although obviously it dodges wraths.
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I have made a list below of what I think are the strongest lands in each color. Am I missing any? I would like to have a discussion which would be included a 360 staple, 540, 720, or 720+. I have listed my thoughts by color.
Black
Volrath's Stronghold is really strong and I think should be in at 360
I think Cabal Coffers and Phyrexian tower are close 2nd and 3rds depending on what you are doing in black. I think running both in 360 is a pretty tight squeeze, and So I think it depends on which decks need more support. I don't think the other 3 should be included unless you are at 720 or bigger, and each one depends on what your cube needs.
Red
I don't think any are really 360 staples
I think I prefer Barbarian Ring the best since it comes in untapped, maybee at 540
Then looming spires, but I don't think I would play this till 720.
The rest are all 720+ IMO
Ghitu Encampment I think used to be better, but may have outlived its day with the full cycle of dual color manlands out there.
White
Kjeldoran Outpost and Karakas I think are the best cards. Kjeldoran Outpost I think takes the spot for consistency though and can be run at 360.
Karakas is more cube dependent. in its Thread found Here people have mentioned there is not quite enough targets for it yet, but my cube at 360 has 24 targets and it has an effect almost every game it comes down.
Kor Haven I think is probably a 540. I think smaller cubes should run only Maze of Ith, but I wouldn't blame people for running it
Windbrisk Heights I thing is actually better than the other 3 cards in low powered cubes where 3 attacking creatures can easily happen, or in cubes which push a token theme. so either slower cubes or 720+
Green
Gaea's Cradle thread is here and a reddit thread
Peoples opinion seem to be quite polar on this card. Probably from the types of cubes running it combined with the the high varience. I think it is better in unpowered cubes generally, but I can see even unpowered cubes not running it, especially if they don't want to proxy one.
Treetop village I think has seen better days. If your cube has space for this, I would find space for the dual color manlands such as Lumbering Falls
Yavimaya Hollow probably belongs only in bigger lists of 720 or bigger. Regenerate a target creature can be good, but smaller cubes I think are to tight with the drawback of tC
Blue
I think blue land cards depend highly on Powered vs unpowered environment.
In a powered Environment I think tolarian Academy and academy ruins take the cake if artifacts are supported.
In unpowered I think Academy Ruins is better since you will lack the 0 cost artifacts. (albeit some exceptions).
In an unpowered cube without artifact support I think Shelldock Isle is the better land to have.
Tolaria West I think is an interesting card, as it can help Blue splash for an extra color but I don't consider it a staple. possibly good at 540+
Faerie Conclave has tough competition with other man lands such as creeping tar pit and celestial colonnade, but many people have had positive results with it.
Riptide Laboratory - has a small discussion here. I think the consensus is that there are not enough targets for it to be competitive, but tribal cubes, and large cubes might want it.
What do you think of my analysis? Am I missing anything?
What did I get wrong? I have not been cubing for very long, so I am sure that much of my analysis has flaws. Plus I have never cubed with power so take it with an entire block of salt
Edits: I have added Hanweir Battlements and Riptide Laboratory to there respective sections as well as changed my position on Faerie Conclave, since many people have had positive results with it.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
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In blue, Tolarian Academy and Academy Ruins are great in the artifact.dec shells. Faerie Conclave is boss. Shelldock Isle is okay in bigger, slower cubes.
Black has Volrath's Stronghold and not much else. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is marginally playable.
Red is pretty weak. Ghitu Encampment and/or Barbarian Ring can be used if you have a quota to meet or something, but otherwise nothing.
Green has Treetop Village and Gaea's Cradle, which are great. Don't like any other green lands.
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In white Karakas and Kor Haven are great. Kjeldoran Outpost played poorly here, the drawback is real and the upside is slow and low impact in most decks. It was cut over five years ago. Windbrisk Heights requires specific conditions to be playable, has a very relevant drawback for the decks that want to play it and triggering it is often a win more.
Shelldock Isle is the best blue land, but Faerie Conclave also sees play every draft and punches players and planeswalkers. Tolarian Academy and Academy Ruins require blue artifacts to be a supported archetype, but they are up there if you do. I did not see many lists playing Tolaria West, there are few worthy targets to tutor with it.
Volrath's Stronghold is the strongest black land and Urborg will often table yet always make maindecks. Mortuary Mire is also surprisingly useful despite reading bad. The rest of what you have written is unplayable in 720.
I do not play any red lands currently. ETBT is a terrible drawback in aggro decks. Ghitu Encampment was played for the longest amount of time, but a 2/1 first strike body was too often irrelevant by the time you want to be attacking with man lands. Barbarian Ring was rarely activated yet the damage piles up quickly, especially in aggro mirrors.
Treetop Village and Gaea's Cradle are both strong green cards. I haven't played Yavimaya Hollow but judging on how painful it is to keep mana up for Thrun, I do not expect it to do well.
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Hanweir battlements i think this is the best option for red. more so if you run hanweir garrison which is a great cube card in its own right although the meld will likely never come together.
Why is your opinion on this card that it is now marginally playable? In the cards thread you mentioned you also liked cabal pit, and felt urborg wasn't worth the place in cube? has your opinion on the card changed over the years? or am I misunderstanding you?
Do you think this card is better than Tower and Coffers?
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Agreed with this. Urborg is very much one-half of a two-card combo several times over, and cards like that are the ones that tend to slide out of cubes first - they do nothing by themselves, and need you to have drafted something else first to be considered.
Cabal Coffers is OK, but I cut it for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and haven't looked back.
Also, if you're considering Hanweir Battlements, you should probably also look at Flamekin Village.
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My favorite mono-colored nonbasics are the 5 onslaught cycle lands (Secluded Steppe, et all). Cycling is one the most powerful abilities in the game, and to have that on a land at a cost of only one colored mana is great. Sweet synergy with bouncelands for those running them (which also go really well with temples - scry another wonderful mechanic).
General comments...
Volraths' Stronghold is a card that gets much better as the quality of your creatures goes up and if you run a very high variance between your top cards and weakest cards (powered lists for instance). In much the same way tutors are amazing in combo focused lists and not nearly as powerful in more midrange focusesd lists. Same thing applies to stronghold. Is the creature worth spending 1B extra to get back to re-use versus playing the next card you draw or what you have in your hand?
In powered lists, this very likely does not apply but in unpowered lists where ramping mana early is hard to come by, Lake of the Dead is actually a pretty insane card. High risk/high reward. The more good stuff focused a cube list is, the less likely there is enough incentive to go mono (or heavily mono). Black has the best devotion support though, so it's the easiest color to make viable.
Tolarian Academy is insane if you have the density of artifacts. Playable in even unpowered if picked early. Academy Ruins is a more limited version of Volraths' with all the same cube design constraints applying. I agree though that Shelldock Isle is likely the most powerful blue land in your average unpowered list.
Red and white have crap (other than cycle lands). Green has Treetop Village, which is awesome and very much a flavor win IMO. If I had to pick just one, that would be the one.
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I do like the idea of running Kher Keep in that slot. There are a bunch of cards that would like the constant token fodder.
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In white I run Ancient Den and nothing else, and that's a strong consideration for a cut since white is the weakest color in the artifact subtheme. Jor Kadeen likes it, but I doubt anyone else cares. Most of the white lands are garbage, but I'm considering picking up a Kor Haven expedition the next time I order singles since another maze that taps for mana seems like a card worth testing.
In blue there's Seat of the Synod, which I really need to cut because blue doesn't even have Jor Kadeen to justify its existence, and Faerie Conclave, which is incredibly strong like everyone else has said even in EDH cube; the ability to bop planeswalkers with lands is good in a cube so dense with walkers. Academy Ruins would have a slot if I wasn't agonizing over the 20$ price tag. Shelldock Isle is actually really terrible in my cube since it's 60 card decks.
Black is pretty spicy. Despite not being a popular cube inclusion Bojuka Bog is a staple in EDH and my cube has a lot of dredge and heavy graveyard based (11/62) and in general my cube gets a lot of value out of graveyards, so hitting someone with bog is actually pretty solid. Separately, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is a solid fixing card and Cabal Coffers incentivizes mono-black, (mono colors need incentives to be worth building) but I've found my players love playing the Urborg/Coffers lottery and when it works it's big game. Keeping both in because they're fun and both have their own purpose. Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower would both be considerations if they weren't so damn expensive.
Red is in an interesting place. Red is the only color that I should be justifying the artifact land in since multiple generals actually want it, but I'm not running Great Furnace because, ironically, red for me actually has plenty of lands I want in its place. (Which is funny because everyone here kinda agrees red has bad offerings for normal cube) Kher Keep is solid because sacrifice and token themes exist in red, and my EDH cube is much slower and more durdly which allows it to be milked for value. Spinerock Knoll is quite usable since life totals are high enough that a 7 damage turn is very common without heavily swinging the game, and it requires basically no commitment since anyone else can trigger it for you.
Green has no non-fixing lands in my cube, which I really should rectify. Blighted Woodlands is an easy include that I just never bothered to add after it came out. Oran-Rief, the Vastwood warrants testing. Without as strong of evasion Treetop Village actually loses it's shine in EDH cube unlike Faerie Conclave, as the ground is often quite gummed up.
As a sidenote, I include both Mirrorpool and Sea Gate Wreckage as colorless lands and am excited to see if anyone makes use of them. If they're bad they'll come out, but I'm interested to see.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
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Curious: what are opinions on Treetop Village in these times of 10 dual creature lands in the cube? Faerie Conclave is tough to cut, even though it's a 3rd blue land in my list, because it's cheap planeswalker removal in blue. Treetop seems a little more redundant in green than Conclave is in blue, although obviously it dodges wraths.
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