Would be playable (though still not really Mythic feeling) as a 3/3. As is? Easily a hard pass.
Are you serious?
Generally.
This would be busted as a 3/3
It would be strong. As is, everyone agrees it's a pass. You're implying there's no middle ground between this being top weak and too strong. That seems unreasonable.
they would never print that, let alone in a standard legal set.
Given their current trends and apparent design philosophy, I would actually have to agree with you on this point.
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
It would be strong. As is, everyone agrees it's a pass. You're implying there's no middle ground between this being top weak and too strong. That seems unreasonable.
+1/+1 on a cheap creature is a big difference. There exist 1/2s for 1 mana with upside, and they are unplayable trash. A vanilla 2/3 for 1 mana would be insanely good. There is a world of middle ground between those two. Getting a 3/3 for 2 with upside would in fact be busted regardless of whether this card is good enough (and I think most would agree it's borderline).
Let's put it this way: The creature needs SOMETHING to push it. Given that it's not short on abilities, I suggested P/T. Arguably a more reasonable improvement would just be +0/+1. I'd be down for that.
But saying, in effect, "it's not good enough but we shouldn't improve it" seems like an awful mentality with which to approach both card evaluation and card (re)design.
I throw stuff out there. Sometimes I go out on a limb. I think it's better to approach these things from a pragmatic, "can we fix? Yes, we can" perspective than just the sort of depressing fatalism that I often see here.
[quote from="L4ragorn »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/cube-new-card-discussion/724902-emn-cube-grim-flayer?comment=26"][quote from="Edward Mass »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/cube-new-card-discussion/724902-emn-cube-grim-flayer?comment=19"]
It would be strong. As is, everyone agrees it's a pass. You're implying there's no middle ground between this being top weak and too strong. That seems unreasonable.
While I don't disagree with any of your logic, I think there is a high chance that most people here, including yourself are underrating the card.
I think people are too hyper focused on his stats, and don't appreciate how powerful his "on damage" ability is, when combined with a reasonable body.
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that by the end of the year Grim Flayer will be consensus #4 or #5 golgari in most standard cubes.
If someone wants to give me 2:1 odds, I'll bet money on it
His filtering ability is really powerful, he has trample, and he can became a 4/4 (or enter the battefield as such) for no extra mana. So I think it would be plenty busted as a 3/3. The difference to Fleacemane Lion is, that the Lion is vanilla until you pump an extra 5 mana into it.
[quote from="L4ragorn »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/cube-new-card-discussion/724902-emn-cube-grim-flayer?comment=26"][quote from="Edward Mass »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/cube-new-card-discussion/724902-emn-cube-grim-flayer?comment=19"]
It would be strong. As is, everyone agrees it's a pass. You're implying there's no middle ground between this being top weak and too strong. That seems unreasonable.
While I don't disagree with any of your logic, I think there is a high chance that most people here, including yourself are underrating the card.
I think people are too hyper focused on his stats, and don't appreciate how powerful his "on damage" ability is, when combined with a reasonable body.
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that by the end of the year Grim Flayer will be consensus #4 or #5 golgari in most standard cubes.
If someone wants to give me 2:1 odds, I'll bet money on it
</blockquote></blockquote>
Years ago this I remade my golgari section to be aggro focused and this guy would have been great leading the dredge mangler, putrid leech, lotleth troll and pals. But the problem wasn't the lacking of attacking goodness from these monstrosities, it is just that no one in my group wanted to play Aggro golgari or jund. They wanted the immensely powerful removal spells and reanimation stuff. Currently they are pushing for Gitrog monster to get an extended run because the guild currently lacks a capstone spell in my cube, and troll will likely be the replacement as we have more discard outlets than before.
So where does that leave the flayer? Probably in the same place as many powerful X/Y 2 drops. These are cards I love on paper but don't seem to draw anyone into the color pair and eventually end up in my on deck box. Make this guy a 4/4 for GGB without the delirium and we are in business. Those stats may sound kind of stupid (For standard) but alas I think that is where my bar for this is unless his ability triggered on attack.
How would you rank the golgari guild with this guy in?
My list would be:
Maelstrom Pulse
Abrupt Decay
Pernicious Deed
Life/Death
Gitrog Monster
Deathrite Shaman
Putrify
This Guy
Dred Mangler
Vraska
But I only run about 4 so it is hard for me to consider him. And I think most are in the same boat.
I'm running Deed, Pulse, Quagmire and Deathrite Shaman. Meren would probably be my next add. Card was really decent when we tested it and felt like it could draw players into an archetype.
Meren is ridiculous. It has earned the respect of several people who aren't regular Cubers. Last night a guy was talking about my Cube and said, "That Golgari 4-drop is so busted!"
I completely forgot about Meren, I never picked her up, assuming she would get cheap as some point, my bad. So yeah that puts one more ahead of flayer.
This guy seems very solid and worth an include. Later in the game having a 2 drop with 4/4 trample and upside is a nice bonus because you will have mana for other spells.
I am very interested in trying him out.
How would you rank the golgari guild with this guy in?
My list would be:
Maelstrom Pulse
Abrupt Decay
Pernicious Deed
Life/Death
Gitrog Monster
Deathrite Shaman
Putrify
This Guy
Dred Mangler
Vraska
Top 4 power level for Golgari (assuming mid-sized powered cube) Is unquestionably:
#1 Pernicious Deed
#2 Maelstrom Pulse
#3 Abrupt Decay
#4 Deathrite shaman
These are the stone cold staples.
I suspect this guy is #5. Competition is Quagmire, Lotleth troll, life/death, Meren.
It does depend how people draft golgari decks. This guy is built more for card advantage midrange style decks. Ideally with graveyard interaction.
He seems great in recurring nightmare builds that have some disruption, or in any "rock" style midrange deck. Playable in agro, but not great.
I think Deed, Pulse, and Decay are the easy top 3. After that I think it's up to the cube owner and the types of cards you want to include. I'm running Deathrite and Garruk as 4 and 5, but Lotleth and Meren would be perfectly acceptable there as well. I think this guy could easily slot into either of those #4 or #5 places for testing depending on the play group preference.
I put Lotleth at #3 because of reanimator support. However, we are starting to get enough discard outlets, that I'm starting to think of swapping out the Troll for something else. If we get another good discard outlet (Cryptbreaker is pretty close)I might swap out the Troll, but I don't think this is the card I'd want in that slot. I'd probably try Meren or Deathrite.
After reading all the threads in here, I have to say that most people seems to have criminally underated Grim Flayer since it was spoiled. With all the respect I have for everyone here, asking it to be a 3/3 or a 2/3 creature seems unfair. Man, that card is damn strong in Standard right now. It's already a major cornerstone of the format and as a 3/3, seriously, it would have been put on the banlist by now, along with Smuggler's Copter, Reflector Mage and Emrakul, that's for sure.
With that said, as a 2/2, it's still more than enough good for cube. I mean, that card is so versatile. Any GB decks, regardless of its archetype, could run this without any shame. Good in aggro, good in midrange, good in combo. This card is so nuts. Love its unique effect.
For us, in a pure powerlevel perspective, the golgari guild standing now details like this :
Pernicious Deed >> Maelstrom Pulse > Abrupt Decay > Lotleth Troll = Grim Flayer >> Deathrite Shaman = Elves of Deep Shadow > Meren of Clan Nel Toth = Life // Death = Garruk, Apex Predator > Vraska, the Unseen = Catacomb Sifter = Putrid Leech
After reading all the threads in here, I have to say that most people seems to have criminally underated Grim Flayer since it was spoiled. With all the respect I have for everyone here, asking it to be a 3/3 or a 2/3 creature seems unfair. Man, that card is damn strong in Standard right now. It's already a major cornerstone of the format and as a 3/3, seriously, it would have been put on the banlist by now, along with Smuggler's Copter, Reflector Mage and Emrakul, that's for sure.
With that said, as a 2/2, it's still more than enough good for cube. I mean, that card is so versatile. Any GB decks, regardless of its archetype, could run this without any shame. Good in aggro, good in midrange, good in combo. This card is so nuts. Love its unique effect.
For us, in a pure powerlevel perspective, the golgari guild standing now details like this :
Pernicious Deed >> Maelstrom Pulse > Abrupt Decay > Lotleth Troll = Grim Flayer >> Deathrite Shaman = Elves of Deep Shadow > Meren of Clan Nel Toth = Life // Death = Garruk, Apex Predator > Vraska, the Unseen = Catacomb Sifter = Putrid Leech
I pretty much agree with most of what you're saying. Grim Flayer is a cube worthy card by itself, it just faces massive competition, especially with Lotleth Troll which is a more reliable outlet for graveyard shenanigans.
I don't think asking for it to be a 2/3 is too out of the question seeing how Sylvan Advocate is starts as a 2/3 with vigilance at 1G. Grim Flayer being multicolored could have easily been a 2/3 with maybe just a +1/+1 bonus since it fuels itself unlike Sylvan Advocate.
I also rate Life // Death much higher, but I'm a reanimator junkie and Life is seriously the the most trollish way to win out of nowhere.
Yeah, your right about Life // Death. I guess its value varies depending on how much Reanimator spells you need in order to support to archetype properly. We used to run it for a long time. Now we have Unburial Rites. It's the only reason why we can now live without it.
About Grim Flayer, I suppose it could have been a 2/3 if your nerf the Delirium boost. If you don't, its another story. Being a 4/5 makes all the difference. Speak to Tasigur and Rhino about it.
Grim Flayer is also a card that really wants to be played in multiple copies. I don't play Standard / Modern, but I'm sure it's common to suicide one Grim Flayer to get the damage trigger so that it enables Delirium for other Grim Flayers and uhh, bin Lingering Souls and fuel Goyfs assuming they're played in the same deck? I dunno, lol.
Yeah, the Flayer does appears in various Jund and Junk modern decklists. You are totally right
Being more of a constructed format card doesn't mean it's not a well rounded card for cube though. But I understand what you mean. Really serviceable constructed spell. Very, very good standard card in the moment.
Has anyone come around to actually test this guy in cube?
How good is he really compared to stuff like Putrid Leech or Werebear?
He's not bad but doesn't do itself any favors by being two colors. He's way worse in cube than in eternal formats as there are way fewer ways to consistently pack the GY. He also kinda just goes in one deck, which is fine when people love to draft that deck but it's not popular enough to warrant inclusion in my experience.
He's great if you need some extra multicolored cards at the end of your packs in most drafts.
I’ve played him in cubes other than mine and felt he was okay, but Delirium is not consistent. Lotleth Troll is a lot more useful as a discard outlet / graveyard matters trampling beater, and Sylvan Advocate in mono green has better overall P/T as a stat monster.
Generally.
It would be strong. As is, everyone agrees it's a pass. You're implying there's no middle ground between this being top weak and too strong. That seems unreasonable.
Given their current trends and apparent design philosophy, I would actually have to agree with you on this point.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
+1/+1 on a cheap creature is a big difference. There exist 1/2s for 1 mana with upside, and they are unplayable trash. A vanilla 2/3 for 1 mana would be insanely good. There is a world of middle ground between those two. Getting a 3/3 for 2 with upside would in fact be busted regardless of whether this card is good enough (and I think most would agree it's borderline).
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
But saying, in effect, "it's not good enough but we shouldn't improve it" seems like an awful mentality with which to approach both card evaluation and card (re)design.
I throw stuff out there. Sometimes I go out on a limb. I think it's better to approach these things from a pragmatic, "can we fix? Yes, we can" perspective than just the sort of depressing fatalism that I often see here.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
While I don't disagree with any of your logic, I think there is a high chance that most people here, including yourself are underrating the card.
I think people are too hyper focused on his stats, and don't appreciate how powerful his "on damage" ability is, when combined with a reasonable body.
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that by the end of the year Grim Flayer will be consensus #4 or #5 golgari in most standard cubes.
If someone wants to give me 2:1 odds, I'll bet money on it
Last Updated 02/07/24
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Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Years ago this I remade my golgari section to be aggro focused and this guy would have been great leading the dredge mangler, putrid leech, lotleth troll and pals. But the problem wasn't the lacking of attacking goodness from these monstrosities, it is just that no one in my group wanted to play Aggro golgari or jund. They wanted the immensely powerful removal spells and reanimation stuff. Currently they are pushing for Gitrog monster to get an extended run because the guild currently lacks a capstone spell in my cube, and troll will likely be the replacement as we have more discard outlets than before.
So where does that leave the flayer? Probably in the same place as many powerful X/Y 2 drops. These are cards I love on paper but don't seem to draw anyone into the color pair and eventually end up in my on deck box. Make this guy a 4/4 for GGB without the delirium and we are in business. Those stats may sound kind of stupid (For standard) but alas I think that is where my bar for this is unless his ability triggered on attack.
How would you rank the golgari guild with this guy in?
My list would be:
Maelstrom Pulse
Abrupt Decay
Pernicious Deed
Life/Death
Gitrog Monster
Deathrite Shaman
Putrify
This Guy
Dred Mangler
Vraska
But I only run about 4 so it is hard for me to consider him. And I think most are in the same boat.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I am very interested in trying him out.
Top 4 power level for Golgari (assuming mid-sized powered cube) Is unquestionably:
#1 Pernicious Deed
#2 Maelstrom Pulse
#3 Abrupt Decay
#4 Deathrite shaman
These are the stone cold staples.
I suspect this guy is #5. Competition is Quagmire, Lotleth troll, life/death, Meren.
It does depend how people draft golgari decks. This guy is built more for card advantage midrange style decks. Ideally with graveyard interaction.
He seems great in recurring nightmare builds that have some disruption, or in any "rock" style midrange deck. Playable in agro, but not great.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
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rant
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With that said, as a 2/2, it's still more than enough good for cube. I mean, that card is so versatile. Any GB decks, regardless of its archetype, could run this without any shame. Good in aggro, good in midrange, good in combo. This card is so nuts. Love its unique effect.
For us, in a pure powerlevel perspective, the golgari guild standing now details like this :
Pernicious Deed >> Maelstrom Pulse > Abrupt Decay > Lotleth Troll = Grim Flayer >> Deathrite Shaman = Elves of Deep Shadow > Meren of Clan Nel Toth = Life // Death = Garruk, Apex Predator > Vraska, the Unseen = Catacomb Sifter = Putrid Leech
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I pretty much agree with most of what you're saying. Grim Flayer is a cube worthy card by itself, it just faces massive competition, especially with Lotleth Troll which is a more reliable outlet for graveyard shenanigans.
I don't think asking for it to be a 2/3 is too out of the question seeing how Sylvan Advocate is starts as a 2/3 with vigilance at 1G. Grim Flayer being multicolored could have easily been a 2/3 with maybe just a +1/+1 bonus since it fuels itself unlike Sylvan Advocate.
I also rate Life // Death much higher, but I'm a reanimator junkie and Life is seriously the the most trollish way to win out of nowhere.
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About Grim Flayer, I suppose it could have been a 2/3 if your nerf the Delirium boost. If you don't, its another story. Being a 4/5 makes all the difference. Speak to Tasigur and Rhino about it.
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Being more of a constructed format card doesn't mean it's not a well rounded card for cube though. But I understand what you mean. Really serviceable constructed spell. Very, very good standard card in the moment.
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He's not bad but doesn't do itself any favors by being two colors. He's way worse in cube than in eternal formats as there are way fewer ways to consistently pack the GY. He also kinda just goes in one deck, which is fine when people love to draft that deck but it's not popular enough to warrant inclusion in my experience.
He's great if you need some extra multicolored cards at the end of your packs in most drafts.
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