If this card lacked the tap symbol, then calling it a fixed Pack Rat would certainly be apt. As is, I prefer calling it a black Enclave Cryptologist.
It would be a snap include for me if it lacked that damn tap symbol. As printed, I will give it try in Reaver Drone's place. I do like black discard enablers since it makes the reanimator deck more flexible. And the potential for some mid- to late-game card advantage is nothing to sneeze at. Plus, all my black 1-drops are currently just a bunch of 2/X guys with various minor drawbacks. It would be nice to give the color an utility 1-drop.
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When you include all the metrics that go into card design, Pack Rat is not a printable card. So "fixed Pack Rat" is a perfectly reasonable description of this card.
Pack Rat is still pretty bonkers in cube. Forcing your opponent to have exact answers for it isn't impossible for the opponent in a format with x amount of sweepers and x amount of 1-3 costed answers, but when they don't then the pack is back.
Are you guys all just discounting the fact that the ability costs 2B AND A CARD? Those tokens ain't free.
No it isn't. Pack Rat was the biggest mistake they've printed in a long time, since the impact that it had on one of the most played and critical formats it was in was beyond warped by its very presence. It is absolutely, 100% unprintable, since limited is a critical factor when designing cards. The most format-warping limited card since Jitte.
I mean, I've been playing with Pack Rat for years now--I understand the mechanics and still stand by my statements. You're pitching cards, but you're technically using cards to make almost any creature and when I'm turning lands into creatures that get bigger the more you pitch/play then that's a pretty awesome feeling that only one of the X amount of wraths decisively stops.
And yeah, Pack Rat was an unprintable mess despite it's relatively lower power level in other formats. There is no worse feeling than facing a Pack Rat in limited, and no better feeling than having one on your side.
No it isn't. Pack Rat was the biggest mistake they've printed in a long time, since the impact that it had on one of the most played and critical formats it was in was beyond warped by its very presence. It is absolutely, 100% unprintable, since limited is a critical factor when designing cards. The most format-warping limited card since Jitte.
This seems like the wrong mindset though. Maybe it should have been Mythic (for Limited purposes), but saying it shouldn't be printed? Like, you didn't even qualify that statement...
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Strong is one thing. Pack Rat was on another level. Comparing it to Jitte in regards to limited is not a hyperbole. I played a lot of RTR limited and other limited in general, and there hasn't been a card since then that has dominated and really one before until you go back to Jitte.
Like, unless your opponent has the literal answer for Pack Rat the turn you play it or one of the sweepers (only sweeper?) you could draft, they lose. No ifs, no buts, a pack rat that isn't immediately answered or isn't answered by Supreme Verdict wins every time. And this is a card that costs two. So imagine you're playing limited with your limited deck and you realize that on T3 you've just lost the game. There really hasn't been another card like that since or before not including Jitte. It's that strong and bumping it to mythic would help a little but it would still show up, causing the problem.
You can attack a planes walker. You can play creatures after a wrath. But you really can't deal with a Pack Rat in RTR limited--or most limited formats if you just placed it in any of them--once the mana gets open to make another rat.
That's little hyperbolic. While it was the best card since Jitte, I beat T2 rat, T3 activate multiple times just with a good draw from a normal limited deck.
I doubt they would print it exactly as is knowing what they now know, but maybe as a mythic with 1BB activation.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
I don't think it's hyperbolic at all, and from my experience that can happen but it's extremely rare. There are always ways to get around cards, sure--artifact removal wasn't non-existant during jittes run for example--but when the percentage is extremely low it doesn't really matter that it's possible when the overwhelming majority of games like that end up with Rat player winning.
I'm starting to regret referring to this card as a "Fixed Pack Rat."
That being said, I want to close that topic with this: Pack Rat is far from unbeatable, but the fact that he's a one-man show that takes over the game very quickly when left unchecked is unprecedented on a 2-drop. There was an old saying when you had Masticore in play back in his era: you no longer have a deck, you have a Masticore. Pack Rat is on a similar, but much better boat. My deck can be utter jank, but as long as I get that turn 2 Pack Rat and a 3rd land, it doesn't matter what I draw because Pack Rat makes all your draws live and that's something no other 2-drop (and most cards in general) can boast.
Getting back on topic, I don't think I really gave this guy a fair assessment. I think I would have easily put this card in my cube if we didn't just get Reaver Drone in OGW and the slew of black 2 drops in SOI. Discard outlets are always useful, and this guy provides both an outlet and sac fodder for Recurring Nightmare on top of being a zombie / having synergies with other Zombies.
As a discard outlet for a dedicated Reanimator deck, he falls pretty short. I'm not a fan of paying additional mana to discard a card unless your name is Survival of the Fittest / Pack Rat (dun dun dun). I'm definitely going to keep my eye on this card. I'm not too high on Relentless Dead, so maybe I'll test this in its place in the future.
I like that this is a T1 play with a much higher upside than your typical 1 drop. Whoever compared it to Cryptologist I think has the better comparison. Cryptologist is only playable because it's a 1 drop.
Not to keep bringing up Pack Rat, but that card is really only busted if it goes unanswered, and it was pretty slow even in my cube. Someone killing Pack Rat after activation usually meant the Pack Rat guy lost the game since they spent 2 cards and 5 mana for a 1/1. That's pretty awful.
This new guy in the same scenario gets you a 2/2 for 3 mana even if they kill it upon activation. And you gain tempo most likely if they kill it before activation since it's a 1 drop and a lot of removal costs more than that.
No it isn't. Pack Rat was the biggest mistake they've printed in a long time, since the impact that it had on one of the most played and critical formats it was in was beyond warped by its very presence. It is absolutely, 100% unprintable, since limited is a critical factor when designing cards. The most format-warping limited card since Jitte.
Just as an aside, while I think it's clear pack rat was a mistake to print at rare for it's native limited format,
The mistake was magnified by not printing proper answers to the card, and putting it in a slower format.
If there was an echoing truth at common , a conditional sweeper at uncommon and the format was a bit faster, pack rat would have been MUCH more fair.
Not disagreeing with you, just reduces the "unprintability" of pack rat a bit that may be obvious from looking at it's dominance.
IE Liliana of the Veil was pretty fair during it's standard season, but if it was printed during the mono black devotion era, it would have been broken through the FACE. Doubt they'll reprint LoV as it's "too good", but if they do, it's probably fine if that format is hostile to the card.
Can the discussion be keep mainly on Cryptkeeper? I don't mind if you guys joint the relation between the two cards,but lately it's been purely about pack ret.
I am most definitely running this card. The second ability is pretty incredible and something I think you can enable quickly and it's such a unique card. Discarding is a real cost but one that you probably recoup quickly.
We've gotten quite a few Zombie tribal enablers that are quite good on their own outside of a dedicated Zombie tribal deck, so I think this is an archetype that just might get there for cube without being parasitic. In my cube I'm already running 8 Zombies and zombie token generators including Gravecrawler and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet without making any effort whatsoever to support Zombie tribal. Any of the following along with Cryptbreaker seem like reasonable cube additions that have a lot of synergy together:
Maybe it's time to start supporting Zombie tribal explicitly?
My playgroup really likes Cryptbreaker. The fact that it is black and not blue (Cryptologist) means it can be played in BG and BR reanimator decks.
And perhaps Zombies can be a thing now--of the cards you mentioned I still do like Graveborn Muse and Fleshbag, and I want to give Relentless Dead a try.
No it isn't. Pack Rat was the biggest mistake they've printed in a long time, since the impact that it had on one of the most played and critical formats it was in was beyond warped by its very presence. It is absolutely, 100% unprintable, since limited is a critical factor when designing cards. The most format-warping limited card since Jitte.
Pack Rat is printable at mythic, or at rare in a set with lots of removal. The reason why Pack Rat was so dominant in RTR is that there are a total of 5 cards in the set that could kill it:
Electrickery
Ultimate Price
Golgari Charm
Izzet Charm
Street Spasm
Golgari Charm, Electrickery and Ultimate price only work before the Rat has made a 2nd copy. Izzet Charm only works before Rat has made a 3rd copy. Eltrickery isn't a maindeckable card, and the other 4 are uncommons, 3 of which were very first-pickable.
A 1BB activation cost would've done some work towards printability for limited too. But it was undoubtedly a mistake. And even with more draftable answers, it's a very problematic card.
We've gotten quite a few Zombie tribal enablers that are quite good on their own outside of a dedicated Zombie tribal deck, so I think this is an archetype that just might get there for cube without being parasitic. In my cube I'm already running 8 Zombies and zombie token generators including Gravecrawler and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet without making any effort whatsoever to support Zombie tribal. Any of the following along with Cryptbreaker seem like reasonable cube additions that have a lot of synergy together:
Maybe it's time to start supporting Zombie tribal explicitly?
My playgroup really likes Cryptbreaker. The fact that it is black and not blue (Cryptologist) means it can be played in BG and BR reanimator decks.
And perhaps Zombies can be a thing now--of the cards you mentioned I still do like Graveborn Muse and Fleshbag, and I want to give Relentless Dead a try.
What kind of decks do you see Cryptbreaker used in?
We already support zombie tribal, but Cryptbreaker does not seem like a good fit in those to me since they're either hard aggro or aggressive midrange with disruption/stax effects. This seems so slow to me, even if the card looks good in a vacuum. Unless this card could spark a more controlling type of zombie builds, I have a hard time seeing this card work for us.
I have no zombie synergy going on in my Cube but I am drawn to this card. I love Pack Rat in Cube though, a lot. Recently I remember being tied 1-1 with 7 mins to play, my opponent stalled slightly and I got Pack Rat going, he was dead within 2 minutes. Cryptbreaker isn't going to be like this at all, but a T1 Cryptbreaker presents some pretty interesting game options but tapping him sucks. Still, keen to keep following this thread to see if he starts getting some love.
I just took out my Black 1 drop aggro support as my Cube group aren't really aggro players so I am doing something different with Black and Cryptbreaker could work here I guess.
If you don't play aggro, but want to support a discard/recursion zombie theme, it's fine. If you support black aggro, it's too slow and there's no room.
It would be a snap include for me if it lacked that damn tap symbol. As printed, I will give it try in Reaver Drone's place. I do like black discard enablers since it makes the reanimator deck more flexible. And the potential for some mid- to late-game card advantage is nothing to sneeze at. Plus, all my black 1-drops are currently just a bunch of 2/X guys with various minor drawbacks. It would be nice to give the color an utility 1-drop.
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Not printable? Mark, that's straight hyperbole.
Are you guys all just discounting the fact that the ability costs 2B AND A CARD? Those tokens ain't free.
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No it isn't. Pack Rat was the biggest mistake they've printed in a long time, since the impact that it had on one of the most played and critical formats it was in was beyond warped by its very presence. It is absolutely, 100% unprintable, since limited is a critical factor when designing cards. The most format-warping limited card since Jitte.
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And yeah, Pack Rat was an unprintable mess despite it's relatively lower power level in other formats. There is no worse feeling than facing a Pack Rat in limited, and no better feeling than having one on your side.
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This seems like the wrong mindset though. Maybe it should have been Mythic (for Limited purposes), but saying it shouldn't be printed? Like, you didn't even qualify that statement...
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Like, unless your opponent has the literal answer for Pack Rat the turn you play it or one of the sweepers (only sweeper?) you could draft, they lose. No ifs, no buts, a pack rat that isn't immediately answered or isn't answered by Supreme Verdict wins every time. And this is a card that costs two. So imagine you're playing limited with your limited deck and you realize that on T3 you've just lost the game. There really hasn't been another card like that since or before not including Jitte. It's that strong and bumping it to mythic would help a little but it would still show up, causing the problem.
You can attack a planes walker. You can play creatures after a wrath. But you really can't deal with a Pack Rat in RTR limited--or most limited formats if you just placed it in any of them--once the mana gets open to make another rat.
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I doubt they would print it exactly as is knowing what they now know, but maybe as a mythic with 1BB activation.
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That being said, I want to close that topic with this: Pack Rat is far from unbeatable, but the fact that he's a one-man show that takes over the game very quickly when left unchecked is unprecedented on a 2-drop. There was an old saying when you had Masticore in play back in his era: you no longer have a deck, you have a Masticore. Pack Rat is on a similar, but much better boat. My deck can be utter jank, but as long as I get that turn 2 Pack Rat and a 3rd land, it doesn't matter what I draw because Pack Rat makes all your draws live and that's something no other 2-drop (and most cards in general) can boast.
Getting back on topic, I don't think I really gave this guy a fair assessment. I think I would have easily put this card in my cube if we didn't just get Reaver Drone in OGW and the slew of black 2 drops in SOI. Discard outlets are always useful, and this guy provides both an outlet and sac fodder for Recurring Nightmare on top of being a zombie / having synergies with other Zombies.
As a discard outlet for a dedicated Reanimator deck, he falls pretty short. I'm not a fan of paying additional mana to discard a card unless your name is Survival of the Fittest / Pack Rat (dun dun dun). I'm definitely going to keep my eye on this card. I'm not too high on Relentless Dead, so maybe I'll test this in its place in the future.
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Not to keep bringing up Pack Rat, but that card is really only busted if it goes unanswered, and it was pretty slow even in my cube. Someone killing Pack Rat after activation usually meant the Pack Rat guy lost the game since they spent 2 cards and 5 mana for a 1/1. That's pretty awful.
This new guy in the same scenario gets you a 2/2 for 3 mana even if they kill it upon activation. And you gain tempo most likely if they kill it before activation since it's a 1 drop and a lot of removal costs more than that.
I don't know. Could be good I'm thinking.
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Just as an aside, while I think it's clear pack rat was a mistake to print at rare for it's native limited format,
The mistake was magnified by not printing proper answers to the card, and putting it in a slower format.
If there was an echoing truth at common , a conditional sweeper at uncommon and the format was a bit faster, pack rat would have been MUCH more fair.
Not disagreeing with you, just reduces the "unprintability" of pack rat a bit that may be obvious from looking at it's dominance.
IE Liliana of the Veil was pretty fair during it's standard season, but if it was printed during the mono black devotion era, it would have been broken through the FACE. Doubt they'll reprint LoV as it's "too good", but if they do, it's probably fine if that format is hostile to the card.
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And perhaps Zombies can be a thing now--of the cards you mentioned I still do like Graveborn Muse and Fleshbag, and I want to give Relentless Dead a try.
Pack Rat is printable at mythic, or at rare in a set with lots of removal. The reason why Pack Rat was so dominant in RTR is that there are a total of 5 cards in the set that could kill it:
Electrickery
Ultimate Price
Golgari Charm
Izzet Charm
Street Spasm
Golgari Charm, Electrickery and Ultimate price only work before the Rat has made a 2nd copy. Izzet Charm only works before Rat has made a 3rd copy. Eltrickery isn't a maindeckable card, and the other 4 are uncommons, 3 of which were very first-pickable.
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We already support zombie tribal, but Cryptbreaker does not seem like a good fit in those to me since they're either hard aggro or aggressive midrange with disruption/stax effects. This seems so slow to me, even if the card looks good in a vacuum. Unless this card could spark a more controlling type of zombie builds, I have a hard time seeing this card work for us.
I just took out my Black 1 drop aggro support as my Cube group aren't really aggro players so I am doing something different with Black and Cryptbreaker could work here I guess.
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