Loving that art too. Big hope the white one will allow me another disenchant effect that isn't only a disenchant effect , maybe is a tap a creature escalate?
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
This card performed worse than I thought it would. I just removed it after not seeing it in action since it was added. I think it's just too clunky for most Cube environments nowadays - it is similar to the issues I had with Primal Command earlier this year.
A better way of me to sum up this card: any deck with Red as its main colors can use it, but no deck particularly needs or wants it real bad. Was often the 24th card or got edged out by other cards with the same cmc.
Under performed here. It's a fine card but the sorcery speed and double red CC make it feel way to fair. I'm still running it but it's definitely on the block.
With more people playing narset/leovold/breacher wheel combos, has anyone tried running this ok-but-not-great card again as an extra copy of the pitch hand and draw X effect? or is it still just too clunky to be worth it?
it's less than half as good as the wheels in the combo b/c it doesn't refill your hand at the same time, so if they're already low on cards it doesn't do much but it does have 2 other modes that can help keep it from being dead?
it's less than half as good as the wheels in the combo b/c it doesn't refill your hand at the same time, so if they're already low on cards it doesn't do much but it does have 2 other modes that can help keep it from being dead?
The problem with the card is not its utility or its flexibility. This card is very good. Here are its two problems:
- Its double red is prohibitive, the decks that would like it - Combo, Control (I'll talk about aggro after) cannot afford the double red.
- Three drop in the red aggro section is very competitive. I've drafted it a few times, but every time I drafted it, I've cut it from my mainboard (24th card)
If more cards like those are printed in the future, I could see Collective Defiance make a return.
However, the red section is stretched to support multiple archetypes, that do not share as much in common:
- Welder
- Red Aggro/ Prowess/ Spells Matter
- Wildfire/ Big Red Combos/ Red Polymorph
- Aristocrats
- Storm
- Burn for control decks
- Discard Outlets/ BR reanimator
Collective is good in that it helps to support so many of the above archetypes, but it never shines.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I'm going to re-test this card as a potential combo piece with Hullbreacher and friends. Back in the day we only really had Notion Thief, so that was never on anybody's radar at the time. This is a really strong application that I think can breathes a lot of life back into this card, especially with the recent printing of Orcish Bowmasters. I was testing Wheel of Misfortune as a second red wheel for the Hullbreacher combos, but I think this fits the bill much better. This is also a good way to deal with both M&B since you can kill the hamster on curve and pick off the planeswalker hanging at 1.
The feel this card needs a bit more teeth in order to make it into today's environment. In fact I would argue, if it was pick 2, it might even have trouble breaking into cube.
Having re-tested this card, it has definitely appreciated a lot in value. Back in the day the first mode was more of a random mulligan when you needed it, but now it's a legitimate threat to combo with Hullbreacher and friends. Its damage modes have also appreciated since there's more 4 toughness creatures to hit (Questing Beast / intiative enablers), not to mention more planeswalkers running around.
I don't support storm, so the more expensive / situational draw 7s like Time Spiral / Memory Jar / Echo of Eons / etc aren't too appealing for me for draw 7 combo. I really like my suite of Timetwister / Wheel of Fortune / Day's Undoing / Windfall / Sail into the West / Collective Defiance as the other half to Fastbond / Hullbreacher and friends.
Having re-tested this card, it has definitely appreciated a lot in value. Back in the day the first mode was more of a random mulligan when you needed it, but now it's a legitimate threat to combo with Hullbreacher and friends. Its damage modes have also appreciated since there's more 4 toughness creatures to hit (Questing Beast / intiative enablers), not to mention more planeswalkers running around.
I don't support storm, so the more expensive / situational draw 7s like Time Spiral / Memory Jar / Echo of Eons / etc aren't too appealing for me for draw 7 combo. I really like my suite of Timetwister / Wheel of Fortune / Day's Undoing / Windfall / Sail into the West / Collective Defiance as the other half to Fastbond / Hullbreacher and friends.
This was literally one of the worst performing cards for me on Arena. The rate has just been abysmal - It's too slow as a discard outlet, it's burn single target damage is 4 and not etc.
This was literally one of the worst performing cards for me on Arena. The rate has just been abysmal - It's too slow as a discard outlet, it's burn single target damage is 4 and not etc.
You're comparing apples to oranges. The arena cube lacks Hullbreacher / Orcish Bowmasters / Leovold, not to mention tutors + dual lands. It's not surprising that it'd be lack luster in the arena cube since it was pretty lackluster in a lot of people's cubes before the era of Hullbreacher and friends. It's been testing well in my own cube with the appropriate context surrounding it.
This was literally one of the worst performing cards for me on Arena. The rate has just been abysmal - It's too slow as a discard outlet, it's burn single target damage is 4 and not etc.
You're comparing apples to oranges. The arena cube lacks Hullbreacher / Orcish Bowmasters / Leovold, not to mention tutors + dual lands. It's not surprising that it'd be lack luster in the arena cube since it was pretty lackluster in a lot of people's cubes before the era of Hullbreacher and friends. It's been testing well in my own cube with the appropriate context surrounding it.
I'm surprised you "need" this many draw-7 enablers, I found Wheel/ Twister/ Jar/ Spiral/ Commit was sufficient by itself.
Damn this is a sweet card I never knew about. I might test it out. That being said I think those 3 wheels you aren’t playing are super strong, are usually very high picks for me, and almost certainly better than this. Not refilling your own hand with a draw 7 seems way worse when those options are available, plus they will give you more draw triggers.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
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Check out my competitive Ezuri, Claw of Progress primer!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
The problem with the card is not its utility or its flexibility. This card is very good. Here are its two problems:
- Its double red is prohibitive, the decks that would like it - Combo, Control (I'll talk about aggro after) cannot afford the double red.
- Three drop in the red aggro section is very competitive. I've drafted it a few times, but every time I drafted it, I've cut it from my mainboard (24th card)
I could see Collective come back if more cards like:
Bedlam Reveler
Phoenix of Ash
Underworld Breach
Seasoned Pyromancer
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
Magmatic Sinkhole
If more cards like those are printed in the future, I could see Collective Defiance make a return.
However, the red section is stretched to support multiple archetypes, that do not share as much in common:
- Welder
- Red Aggro/ Prowess/ Spells Matter
- Wildfire/ Big Red Combos/ Red Polymorph
- Aristocrats
- Storm
- Burn for control decks
- Discard Outlets/ BR reanimator
Collective is good in that it helps to support so many of the above archetypes, but it never shines.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
The feel this card needs a bit more teeth in order to make it into today's environment. In fact I would argue, if it was pick 2, it might even have trouble breaking into cube.
I don't support storm, so the more expensive / situational draw 7s like Time Spiral / Memory Jar / Echo of Eons / etc aren't too appealing for me for draw 7 combo. I really like my suite of Timetwister / Wheel of Fortune / Day's Undoing / Windfall / Sail into the West / Collective Defiance as the other half to Fastbond / Hullbreacher and friends.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
This was literally one of the worst performing cards for me on Arena. The rate has just been abysmal - It's too slow as a discard outlet, it's burn single target damage is 4 and not etc.
You're comparing apples to oranges. The arena cube lacks Hullbreacher / Orcish Bowmasters / Leovold, not to mention tutors + dual lands. It's not surprising that it'd be lack luster in the arena cube since it was pretty lackluster in a lot of people's cubes before the era of Hullbreacher and friends. It's been testing well in my own cube with the appropriate context surrounding it.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I'm surprised you "need" this many draw-7 enablers, I found Wheel/ Twister/ Jar/ Spiral/ Commit was sufficient by itself.