Hopefully I'm not overstepping posting this up in here but I seen people wondering how to discuss the topping of meld cards together and I have been wondering about 2 for 1 picks since the mechanic was spoiled.
How do people feel about using the meld cards as 2 for 1 picks? For example, you pick Gisela and get a FREE Bruna. This removes the feel bads I have around having a meld card that can't be melded and lessens the downside of some of the meld cards being a lot less playable than others (looking at you Bruna) by making them more of the icing on the cake than a full pick. It gives players the option of running both creatures or just the one that is more cube able if they don't feel they have the room in their deck for both halfs.
Getting 2 cards for 1 pick is powerful but cube is meant for powerful things and it's not like it will always be a first pick, just a solid value pick if your in the colours.
This approach feel like a fun conspiricy style way to spice up some the draft in an interesting way.
This is a cool idea. It does make them more powerful certainly, but it's not like that's better than a Sol Ring or something. I've heard of people doing similar things with Squadron Hawk, for example.
I think you could give it a shot. These cards don't seem insane individually, and the trend seems like it may be "One good card, one mediocre card". Including both puts limitations on your deck, and you're not even guaranteed at assembling the combo.
I'll probably just play the ones that are good enough on their own and, if it happens that both are good enough, I'll include the meld card after somehow. I don't like the X-in-1 picks and don't feel the need to start now, especially since two of the meld cards spoiled so far are totally cubeable on their own.
Honestly, literally all the Meld cards boil down to "1 of these is Cubeable, the other sucks" so I feel like this whole thing's a non-issue. Just cube with Gisela, Garrison, and MAYBE the black 5 drop. And I believe we were told that there's only 3 Melds (the one's spoiled today) in the entire set, right?
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I think you could give it a shot. These cards don't seem insane individually, and the trend seems like it may be "One good card, one mediocre card". Including both puts limitations on your deck, and you're not even guaranteed at assembling the combo.
Yea the good/mediocre thing is mainly why the idea occurred to me, specifically with Gisela/Bruna where Bruna is only decent because casting her late game with gisela in the yard seems like a decent finisher.
Yea it's a bit awkward to pull off but it's also a fun deck building challenge to work towards, maybe it's not suited to the most hardcore of cubes but my playgroup only cubes with me and I think they will eat this kinda thing up.
As for not being guaranteed to get the combo, I get what you mean but that can be said of any combo and doesn't put me off, a bit of variance and tension appeals to me; knowing gisela is in the yard or your opponent playing the meld land on turn 2 puts you on edge and keeps you guessing.
This is a cool idea. It does make them more powerful certainly, but it's not like that's better than a Sol Ring or something. I've heard of people doing similar things with Squadron Hawk, for example.
Yea that was pretty much my train of thought when I was looking at them. It just makes them more viable as cube cards because the option is there.
It seems like a good way to do it to me. The lesser cards of the two meld pairs are obviously kind of garbage and I would never put them into my cube, but if drafters want to dilute their 40 for a shot at combo glory, it's hard to think of a good reason why I shouldn't let them, aside from, I guess, singleton aesthetics.
Honestly, literally all the Meld cards boil down to "1 of these is Cubeable, the other sucks" so I feel like this whole thing's a non-issue. Just cube with Gisela, Garrison, and MAYBE the black 5 drop. And I believe we were told that there's only 3 Melds (the one's spoiled today) in the entire set, right?
That's simultaneously relieving and disappointing. I don't want the whole set to turn into Coldsnap's inbred draft environment, but I feel like one of the splashiest mechanics they've ever done deserves more than 3 pairs, only one of which is reasonably attainable in regular limited.
I think the idea is reasonable, but defeats the purpose of the mechanic a little. Part of the experience of these cards is snapping up both pairs in a draft and getting excited, rather than having readymade combos seeded into the cube.
I'll probably just play the ones that are good enough on their own and, if it happens that both are good enough, I'll include the meld card after somehow. I don't like the X-in-1 picks and don't feel the need to start now, especially since two of the meld cards spoiled so far are totally cubeable on their own.
Yea I totally get that logic, it could suck and no one will bother ever using the other card but it doesn't hurt to have one laying about and ready to go in case on a whim someone decides to live the dream, rather than having to explain that you don't have one so they just have to ignore most of the cards text.
It'll the same vein as pick a hawk and get multiple one or pick nissa and get nissa's chosen. It'll work for cube who enjoy stuff like that, but I'll pass personally pass for my own cube.
I'll cube the ones that are good enough on their own (counting the meld as flavor text) and just ignore the other half. The only thing I dislike more than Meld in a singleton limited format is warping the draft process to make them work. But for folks that hand out free Squadron Hawks and Kindles, you could do something like that for Meld, I guess.
I like the idea of drafting the meld cards as one pick. But I will have to convince My cube partner that this is not 'cheating' or too house rulesy for us.
This would probably be pretty fun, but I personally wouldn't want to do it. If the cards aren't draftable by themselves, and so you use a get-two-for-one-pick rule, then I'd think you could make a whole bunch of cards Cubable if you tacked free picks onto them. Which is to say, if you're doing this, you're doing it to support a draft gimmick to make pet cards playable, and I'm not sure these are the pet cards I'd want to make playable.
I'm definitely testing both hanweir cards as individual picks. I think both are cubable and a red grave Titan is awesome too. If battlements tapped for R I'd definitely include it. I'll ask my cube group if that should be grouped, and if we agree it feels better to group them I'm going to include the component cards to brisela. Gisela is good on her own, and Bruna definitely fits into a final forty if Gisela is already there. It also helps that I love the brisela art.
Bruna definitely fits into a final forty if Gisela is already there. It also helps that I love the brisela art.
That's the thing: Garrison and probably Gisela are cubable without meld. If you give away the other card with them, you get random and epic-feeling meld blowouts. It's not like Squadron Hawk where extra copies are absolutely necessary.
A big facet of combos and synergies in Limited (including Cube) is the opportunity cost associated with drafting all the pieces. It's part of the push-pull (and decision-making) of the format, especially draft. Giving stuff out for free undermines all that.
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I honestly think without meld gisela barely doesn't make it. Bruna while definitely slotting into a deck with gisela would not be close to cubable without her, and there is a lot of power when they are together. The garrison is good but at the point where you would meld it, it's honestly a fair meld card. Grave Titan after a vulnerable turn and 6 mana.
You get Duskwatch Recruiter and Krallenhorde Howler with only 1 pick, since one is one the back of the other. The way I've decided to think of it is that I'm cubing Brisela, Voice of Nightmares -- and if you pick brisela out of a pack, obviously you'll get the stuff on the other side of brisela.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
You get Duskwatch Recruiter and Krallenhorde Howler with only 1 pick, since one is one the back of the other. The way I've decided to think of it is that I'm cubing Brisela, Voice of Nightmares -- and if you pick brisela out of a pack, obviously you'll get the stuff on the other side of brisela.
This is a false equivalency. Meld cards are more akin to Voltron strategies than Transform cards. Would you give out free equipment wIth Stoneforge?
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
You get Duskwatch Recruiter and Krallenhorde Howler with only 1 pick, since one is one the back of the other. The way I've decided to think of it is that I'm cubing Brisela, Voice of Nightmares -- and if you pick brisela out of a pack, obviously you'll get the stuff on the other side of brisela.
This is a false equivalency. Meld cards are more akin to Voltron strategies than Transform cards. Would you give out free equipment wIth Stoneforge?
*That* is a false equivalency. SFM is a single faced card. It is physically unrelated to any other cards, and certainly to any specific named equipment.
As far as the rules engine/gatherer is concerned Brisela will be a single magic card, that just happens to physically be double sized. The other "face" of Brisela -- meaning, if you physically pick Brisela up and turn her 180 degrees -- consists of Bruna and Gisela. If you can't see how that is more similar to normal DFC's than than something like SFM or even Nissa Revane, I honestly don't know what to tell you.
If you look at it this way, there are three options with regard to the white meld cards:
1. Have one of your cube slots occupied by Gisela. If you pick her, only she is added to your card pool, and the back half of the card is totally irrelevant.
2. Have one of your cube slots occupied by Bruna. If you pick her, only she is added to your card pool, and the back half of the card is totally irrelevant.
3. Have one of your cube slots occupied by Brisela. If you pick her, both of her front faces are added to your card pool, and all parts of the card(s) are relevant.
We'll probably go with 3, but I wouldn't fault anyone for choosing 1.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Well, I wouldn't expect anyone to actually cube Bruna without Gisela
But I suspect you will in practice see some people include just gisela, and some people bundle them into a single pick (and some include neither). Just based on the nature of the mechanic, that is somehow a little more aesthetically palatable to me than the Squadron Hawk or Nissa Revane cases were.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
You get Duskwatch Recruiter and Krallenhorde Howler with only 1 pick, since one is one the back of the other. The way I've decided to think of it is that I'm cubing Brisela, Voice of Nightmares -- and if you pick brisela out of a pack, obviously you'll get the stuff on the other side of brisela.
This is a false equivalency. Meld cards are more akin to Voltron strategies than Transform cards. Would you give out free equipment wIth Stoneforge?
*That* is a false equivalency. SFM is a single faced card. It is physically unrelated to any other cards, and certainly to any specific named equipment.
You were saying that players "get two cards" via Transform cards and I was saying that's not accurate in practice. A Transformer is one card, one permanent (generally). Transform cards simply takes on different characteristics if the Transform condition is met. Beyond the obvious aesthetic similarities, Transform and Meld don't really work the same. Honestly, Transform has more in common with Flipping (i.e. the Kamigawa mechanic), Morph and Level up than with Meld.
Now I'm not saying any of this to argue that you and your play group can't do what you want with your format or your cards. I'm merely pointing out a problem with your logic.
How do people feel about using the meld cards as 2 for 1 picks? For example, you pick Gisela and get a FREE Bruna. This removes the feel bads I have around having a meld card that can't be melded and lessens the downside of some of the meld cards being a lot less playable than others (looking at you Bruna) by making them more of the icing on the cake than a full pick. It gives players the option of running both creatures or just the one that is more cube able if they don't feel they have the room in their deck for both halfs.
Getting 2 cards for 1 pick is powerful but cube is meant for powerful things and it's not like it will always be a first pick, just a solid value pick if your in the colours.
This approach feel like a fun conspiricy style way to spice up some the draft in an interesting way.
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Yea the good/mediocre thing is mainly why the idea occurred to me, specifically with Gisela/Bruna where Bruna is only decent because casting her late game with gisela in the yard seems like a decent finisher.
Yea it's a bit awkward to pull off but it's also a fun deck building challenge to work towards, maybe it's not suited to the most hardcore of cubes but my playgroup only cubes with me and I think they will eat this kinda thing up.
As for not being guaranteed to get the combo, I get what you mean but that can be said of any combo and doesn't put me off, a bit of variance and tension appeals to me; knowing gisela is in the yard or your opponent playing the meld land on turn 2 puts you on edge and keeps you guessing.
Yea that was pretty much my train of thought when I was looking at them. It just makes them more viable as cube cards because the option is there.
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That's simultaneously relieving and disappointing. I don't want the whole set to turn into Coldsnap's inbred draft environment, but I feel like one of the splashiest mechanics they've ever done deserves more than 3 pairs, only one of which is reasonably attainable in regular limited.
I think the idea is reasonable, but defeats the purpose of the mechanic a little. Part of the experience of these cards is snapping up both pairs in a draft and getting excited, rather than having readymade combos seeded into the cube.
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Yea I totally get that logic, it could suck and no one will bother ever using the other card but it doesn't hurt to have one laying about and ready to go in case on a whim someone decides to live the dream, rather than having to explain that you don't have one so they just have to ignore most of the cards text.
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That's the thing: Garrison and probably Gisela are cubable without meld. If you give away the other card with them, you get random and epic-feeling meld blowouts. It's not like Squadron Hawk where extra copies are absolutely necessary.
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This is a false equivalency. Meld cards are more akin to Voltron strategies than Transform cards. Would you give out free equipment wIth Stoneforge?
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
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*That* is a false equivalency. SFM is a single faced card. It is physically unrelated to any other cards, and certainly to any specific named equipment.
As far as the rules engine/gatherer is concerned Brisela will be a single magic card, that just happens to physically be double sized. The other "face" of Brisela -- meaning, if you physically pick Brisela up and turn her 180 degrees -- consists of Bruna and Gisela. If you can't see how that is more similar to normal DFC's than than something like SFM or even Nissa Revane, I honestly don't know what to tell you.
If you look at it this way, there are three options with regard to the white meld cards:
1. Have one of your cube slots occupied by Gisela. If you pick her, only she is added to your card pool, and the back half of the card is totally irrelevant.
2. Have one of your cube slots occupied by Bruna. If you pick her, only she is added to your card pool, and the back half of the card is totally irrelevant.
3. Have one of your cube slots occupied by Brisela. If you pick her, both of her front faces are added to your card pool, and all parts of the card(s) are relevant.
We'll probably go with 3, but I wouldn't fault anyone for choosing 1.
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But I suspect you will in practice see some people include just gisela, and some people bundle them into a single pick (and some include neither). Just based on the nature of the mechanic, that is somehow a little more aesthetically palatable to me than the Squadron Hawk or Nissa Revane cases were.
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A custom version of a third modern masters: MM2019
(filter->rarity to see in set rarity).
You were saying that players "get two cards" via Transform cards and I was saying that's not accurate in practice. A Transformer is one card, one permanent (generally). Transform cards simply takes on different characteristics if the Transform condition is met. Beyond the obvious aesthetic similarities, Transform and Meld don't really work the same. Honestly, Transform has more in common with Flipping (i.e. the Kamigawa mechanic), Morph and Level up than with Meld.
Now I'm not saying any of this to argue that you and your play group can't do what you want with your format or your cards. I'm merely pointing out a problem with your logic.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
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