I think for this card we can almost ignore the meld card. The other one is very weak and the cube implications are rare. If others disagree that can place it here.
Now as far as this card I had to check it twice. Crazy impressive with things like Porphorous, Hellrider,Hero of Oxid Ridge, Mayor of Avabruk, and Champion of the Parish and anthems in general but really strong on it's own. Could end up being in the same league as rabblemaster and that is easily red's best 3. I'd been begging for more power from red's 3 slot and this is walk I am talking about. Instant include for me at almost any size.
On empty board this puts out the same amount of damage as rabble master except for that 1 point on turn 1.
Really Excited.
Now I just need a good red anthem to be printed. MAybe it is time for the Alpha Orcish Oriflamme.
This is almost strictly better than Rabble in my book. I'll test and probably keep.
I'm of the same opinion. Ignoring that one damage that Rabblemaster makes the turn he comes out, you're getting the same amount of damage spread across more bodies the turn it can actually attack, plus it has higher toughness. This card looks sweet.
While definitely no strictly better than Rabblemaster or even close to that (we should stop using strictly better because it's almost never right lol) this is still an insane card for a three drop. I wish it had another ability like vigilance or something, but that's cause I'm crazy greedy.
That 3 toughness will be a big deal on an attacking 3 drop. I'm definitely warming up to this guy. But geez, no idea what I'll cut. Probably Magus of the Wheel or Fire Imp.
I think for this card we can almost ignore the meld card. The other one is very weak and the cube implications are rare. If others disagree that can place it here.
Agree. The land seems very meh. If you're pushing a <> maybe it's good enough.
This, though, it s pretty interesting card. It's 4 power worth of attackers across 3 bodies on t4 when played on curve, and any anthem-like effects (hello hellrider and hero of oxid ridge, both of which curve nicely with this card) obviously makes it a lot better. It's not a great attacker all by itself, though, so it will require testing to see how often you can make a good attack with your 2/3 on t4.
I like it a lot, it's land looking playable is also a bonous.
With the meld cards I was wondering this, would it be too strong to draft them as a package? It seems very strong to get 2 cards for one but it's not like it would always be a first pick and it may give some of the fringe meld cards more of a shot. It feels a bit like some kind of conspiricy style draft altering fun. Thoughts?
I'm higher on the land then most people and am thinking of testing both of them. I imagine since one half is a land the meld is a lot easier than most other melds.
You could probably give out the land for free with the creature and not break anything. My only concern would be having a way of communicating that to the drafters and having them see what the land does. This could be a good case for using a 2-in-1 or 3-in-1 proxy/insert for the draft.
It's also nice that the tokens are Humans. This could be the push I need to add some more Human tribal bonuses to my cube.
I think the land is good on its own if you support colorless. I've been wanting a good red utility land for a while so this that's something off my bucket list. I'm going to at least test two of the melds (this and the Bruna / Gisela hybrid)
I hate hate hate the idea of playing just one of the meld cards in a cube. It already annoys me to have to ignore stuff like the Commander text on Daretti, Scrap Savant and the absurd wording on Council's Judgment for two-player. Having an entire SIDE of a card be totally irrelevant just makes my eye twitch.
I hate hate hate the idea of playing just one of the meld cards in a cube. It already annoys me to have to ignore stuff like the Commander text on Daretti, Scrap Savant and the absurd wording on Council's Judgment for two-player. Having an entire SIDE of a card be totally irrelevant just makes my eye twitch.
See, that's almost an appeal for me. The weirder the card, the better. Power level comes first but when there's some un-aesthetically appealing I'm probably more likely to try it over a similar prettier option.
I like this a lot and I am intrigued by the land as well so I am definitely going to include at least half of this guy not sure how I feel about melds yet though.
While definitely no strictly better than Rabblemaster or even close to that (we should stop using strictly better because it's almost never right lol) this is still an insane card for a three drop. I wish it had another ability like vigilance or something, but that's cause I'm crazy greedy.
Sal, we generally agre on things but I've gotta hold the line here. You're simultaneously saying that this card is "insane" (which is hyperbolic at best) and that adding abilities to it would be asking too much (it wouldn't, honestly), yet you think Rabblemaster is still equal or better? Um... what?
Rabblemaster is a fine card, but I've always felt it was laregely overrated/overhyped by the Cube and Standard communities (mostly because they were short on options at the time). Its main cache comes from its ability to pressure control decks with few or no blockers, which is neat but also pretty linear. Its initial token is basically a sacrificial opening salvo (very rarely surviving, let alone connecting, against the average boardstate). Its toughness is nerfed to make up for the likelihood that it'll be swinging for 3+ every turn. And it turns every other Goblin you control (not just the tokens) into "her dur must attack" idiots. All these are drawbacks that Garrison doesn't have. So yeah, I'm standing by my very reasonable statement of "this is almost strictly better than Rabble in my book."
As to the idea of "strictly better" being overused or a meaningless term, I definitely think that's a losing argument. As long as WotC makes functional reprints and cards that are at least partially evocative by earlier designs, that term will be useful (especially to the Cube community).
I like it a lot, it's land looking playable is also a bonous.
With the meld cards I was wondering this, would it be too strong to draft them as a package? It seems very strong to get 2 cards for one but it's not like it would always be a first pick and it may give some of the fringe meld cards more of a shot. It feels a bit like some kind of conspiricy style draft altering fun. Thoughts?
I think the land is good on its own if you support colorless. I've been wanting a good red utility land for a while so this that's something off my bucket list.
I can't stress enough how down I am on both running the land and gifting meld combos to players with no in-draft (or gods forbid in-sealed) opportunity cost. I'm personally of the opinion the WotC designed most of the meld pairs in such a way that only one would be Constructed/Cube playable specifically with this kind of thing in mind. (Forgive the run-on there.) The land is super meh to me, honestly. I could maybe see running it if the haste ability had a lower opportunity cost (like literally just tapping itself), but I'm not sure it's worth a slot as is. And the Meld combo is honestly not worth sacking both a land an already solid 3-drop, IMO. Obviously you guys are free to do whatever, but I just felt you should see at least one dissenting opinion.
I hate hate hate the idea of playing just one of the meld cards in a cube. It already annoys me to have to ignore stuff like the Commander text on Daretti, Scrap Savant and the absurd wording on Council's Judgment for two-player. Having an entire SIDE of a card be totally irrelevant just makes my eye twitch.
If it's in a sleeve you need never see the reverse side of it though? If anything it seems less annoying than the two other examples you mention.
EDIT: You could even get it altered to remove the offending text on the front side?
I was about to say before your edit that a person with OCD that's as bad as Josi's would clearly be upset by the simple "7/4 >" text on a meld card, regardless of how subtle it is. Hell, even altering might not do it for some people. Personally, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over running the good halves of these meld combos and ignoring their lesser siblings.
You misread that completely. I said it's not strictly better or close to it, which is absolutely true. If there's a creature that can profitably block my 2/3, then Rabblemaster is better since I don't have to run it into attacks to have it become more than the body I paid for. If I have a siege gang commander on board, Rabblemaster is better. If Faith's Fetters is the card they play on my creature, Rabblemaster is better. If...etc etc etc because they are two cards that function in different ways.
i.e. my point is that while I think the new card is better, saying it's strictly better or anything close to that is very wrong, and while it's still a term that can be relevant, it's one of the most mis-used terms because it's apparent that people don't really understand what it means. Strictly better means it's a literal 100% upgrade. If you're running shock and upgrade it to lightning bolt, that's strictly better. If you replace Rabblemaster with this guy, then there will still be plenty of scenarios where you want a rabble master as I illustrated above, making the card literally not strictly better. The card is not strictly better. I agree that it is better, but saying it's strictly better is just not understanding what that term means. It's not even an argument, the term means something very specific and not in the way you seem to be using it.
And yes, a 2/3 for 2R that attacks for 4 across three bodies and scales up from there is insane.
I think it's toughness is the important thing to remember about Rabblemaster. On an open board it has a greater damage potential, but if you're opponent has nothing in play and no response to an attack on turn four you're probably winning that game anyway. The extra point of toughness on Garrison really makes a difference in what is likely a more average board state, that is your opponent having played a two power two or three drop on curve, and going wider in one attack means more damage gets through if your opponent only has one blocker.
I won't be running the land, nor including it as a bonus for drafting Garrison. Meld looks like it wasn't factored into how much any given meld card should cost, which is a smart move by Wotc. Needing two cards to achieve one big thing is difficult, so I'm glad they just made the individual cards good and let meld be icing on the cake.
I think this is clearly worse than rabblemaster. Hasted damage output is relevant, as well as total damage output in quick period. 3 toughness is a nice bonus and as such easily worth testing.
Any card that can take over the game at a reasonable rate should be considered and this card looks very solid.
Being a 2/3 is such an amazing benefit in cube. Almost every 2-drop and even the majority of 1-drops (!) have 2 power, so the 3rd point of toughness is really important and prevents trading down. Since most of the aforementioned 2-drops and even some of the 1-drops also have 2 toughness, the 2nd point of power means that you will win many combats. Or alternatively discourage your opponent from attacking while also being able to attack profitably. Really, a 2/3 3-drop is just so much better than a simple 2/2 for that cost.
Hanweir Garrison is a fantastic red 3-drop with a great body and a great offensive ability. I am definitely cubing it. Also, the (Melds with Cardname.) reminder text is much easier to ignore/overlook than the whole block of text that the other card of the meld pair has. Yes, if I only cube this card, I would prefer it not to have that text for aesthetical reasons, but just like Daretti, Scrap Savant's and Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath's commander ability, I can live with it.
Red 3 drop are getting kind of thick, but is there still spaces for this?
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Honestly I feel like they may be better as a MCD.
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Now as far as this card I had to check it twice. Crazy impressive with things like Porphorous, Hellrider,Hero of Oxid Ridge, Mayor of Avabruk, and Champion of the Parish and anthems in general but really strong on it's own. Could end up being in the same league as rabblemaster and that is easily red's best 3. I'd been begging for more power from red's 3 slot and this is walk I am talking about. Instant include for me at almost any size.
On empty board this puts out the same amount of damage as rabble master except for that 1 point on turn 1.
Really Excited.
Now I just need a good red anthem to be printed. MAybe it is time for the Alpha Orcish Oriflamme.
I'm of the same opinion. Ignoring that one damage that Rabblemaster makes the turn he comes out, you're getting the same amount of damage spread across more bodies the turn it can actually attack, plus it has higher toughness. This card looks sweet.
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Agree. The land seems very meh. If you're pushing a <> maybe it's good enough.
This, though, it s pretty interesting card. It's 4 power worth of attackers across 3 bodies on t4 when played on curve, and any anthem-like effects (hello hellrider and hero of oxid ridge, both of which curve nicely with this card) obviously makes it a lot better. It's not a great attacker all by itself, though, so it will require testing to see how often you can make a good attack with your 2/3 on t4.
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With the meld cards I was wondering this, would it be too strong to draft them as a package? It seems very strong to get 2 cards for one but it's not like it would always be a first pick and it may give some of the fringe meld cards more of a shot. It feels a bit like some kind of conspiricy style draft altering fun. Thoughts?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
It's also nice that the tokens are Humans. This could be the push I need to add some more Human tribal bonuses to my cube.
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See, that's almost an appeal for me. The weirder the card, the better. Power level comes first but when there's some un-aesthetically appealing I'm probably more likely to try it over a similar prettier option.
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Sal, we generally agre on things but I've gotta hold the line here. You're simultaneously saying that this card is "insane" (which is hyperbolic at best) and that adding abilities to it would be asking too much (it wouldn't, honestly), yet you think Rabblemaster is still equal or better? Um... what?
Rabblemaster is a fine card, but I've always felt it was laregely overrated/overhyped by the Cube and Standard communities (mostly because they were short on options at the time). Its main cache comes from its ability to pressure control decks with few or no blockers, which is neat but also pretty linear. Its initial token is basically a sacrificial opening salvo (very rarely surviving, let alone connecting, against the average boardstate). Its toughness is nerfed to make up for the likelihood that it'll be swinging for 3+ every turn. And it turns every other Goblin you control (not just the tokens) into "her dur must attack" idiots. All these are drawbacks that Garrison doesn't have. So yeah, I'm standing by my very reasonable statement of "this is almost strictly better than Rabble in my book."
As to the idea of "strictly better" being overused or a meaningless term, I definitely think that's a losing argument. As long as WotC makes functional reprints and cards that are at least partially evocative by earlier designs, that term will be useful (especially to the Cube community).
I can't stress enough how down I am on both running the land and gifting meld combos to players with no in-draft (or gods forbid in-sealed) opportunity cost. I'm personally of the opinion the WotC designed most of the meld pairs in such a way that only one would be Constructed/Cube playable specifically with this kind of thing in mind. (Forgive the run-on there.) The land is super meh to me, honestly. I could maybe see running it if the haste ability had a lower opportunity cost (like literally just tapping itself), but I'm not sure it's worth a slot as is. And the Meld combo is honestly not worth sacking both a land an already solid 3-drop, IMO. Obviously you guys are free to do whatever, but I just felt you should see at least one dissenting opinion.
I was about to say before your edit that a person with OCD that's as bad as Josi's would clearly be upset by the simple "7/4 >" text on a meld card, regardless of how subtle it is. Hell, even altering might not do it for some people. Personally, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over running the good halves of these meld combos and ignoring their lesser siblings.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
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i.e. my point is that while I think the new card is better, saying it's strictly better or anything close to that is very wrong, and while it's still a term that can be relevant, it's one of the most mis-used terms because it's apparent that people don't really understand what it means. Strictly better means it's a literal 100% upgrade. If you're running shock and upgrade it to lightning bolt, that's strictly better. If you replace Rabblemaster with this guy, then there will still be plenty of scenarios where you want a rabble master as I illustrated above, making the card literally not strictly better. The card is not strictly better. I agree that it is better, but saying it's strictly better is just not understanding what that term means. It's not even an argument, the term means something very specific and not in the way you seem to be using it.
And yes, a 2/3 for 2R that attacks for 4 across three bodies and scales up from there is insane.
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I won't be running the land, nor including it as a bonus for drafting Garrison. Meld looks like it wasn't factored into how much any given meld card should cost, which is a smart move by Wotc. Needing two cards to achieve one big thing is difficult, so I'm glad they just made the individual cards good and let meld be icing on the cake.
Any card that can take over the game at a reasonable rate should be considered and this card looks very solid.
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Hanweir Garrison is a fantastic red 3-drop with a great body and a great offensive ability. I am definitely cubing it. Also, the (Melds with Cardname.) reminder text is much easier to ignore/overlook than the whole block of text that the other card of the meld pair has. Yes, if I only cube this card, I would prefer it not to have that text for aesthetical reasons, but just like Daretti, Scrap Savant's and Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath's commander ability, I can live with it.
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