I'm not as sold as everyone else just yet. She's weak against every removal spell and a poor topdeck. She rumbles well, but I think it's easy to overestimate the rest of her abilities, since cube isn't saturated with nonbasics and Imposing Sovereign gets worse when your opponent has had extra time to deploy creatures. The baseline's probably reasonable enough to test, but White 3-drops are pretty ludicrous. Still hope to hear good results.
I'm not as sold as everyone else just yet. She's weak against every removal spell and a poor topdeck. She rumbles well, but I think it's easy to overestimate the rest of her abilities, since cube isn't saturated with nonbasics and Imposing Sovereign gets worse when your opponent has had extra time to deploy creatures. The baseline's probably reasonable enough to test, but White 3-drops are pretty ludicrous. Still hope to hear good results.
Whilst your criticisms about timing have some validity (and certainly I'd be fine with this card costing 1 less), I don't think you're being entirely fair here. I shouldn't have to tell you this, but "dies to removal" begins to lose meaning as a complaint when we're talking about creatures that cost less than 4. I also question that topdeck comment. She's not "poor" as a topdeck unless you're expecting a huge Hail Mary. A 3-power first striker is solid the majority of the time. Does her Kismet ability lose value/relevance over time? Sure. But it's also great on curve (especially on the play). Ultimately, I'd be about as happy to see a Thalia 2.0 off the top as I would most 3 drops in white. It's not gonna take over a game singlehandedly, but it WILL be an effective body just the same.
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
I'm not as sold as everyone else just yet. She's weak against every removal spell and a poor topdeck. She rumbles well, but I think it's easy to overestimate the rest of her abilities, since cube isn't saturated with nonbasics and Imposing Sovereign gets worse when your opponent has had extra time to deploy creatures. The baseline's probably reasonable enough to test, but White 3-drops are pretty ludicrous. Still hope to hear good results.
She has good stats and relevant disruption and a splashable casting cost. She's not a complete stat monster like Brimaz or can be milked for tokens like Hallowed Spiritkeeper / Blade Splicer, but I think she's overall more useful than the pseudo-anthems like Mirror Entity and Soltari Champion.
The Imposing Sovereign effect is actually really useful against all the token generators we have running around these days, now they have to wait a turn before they puke up a wall of defense. Unlike OG Thalia, her ability doesn't mess with your stuff and doesn't make your planeswalkers / armageddons / equipment cost more.
Yeah, we regularly see decks with 5-10 non basics around here, and hosing fetch lands is so insane. Maybe we value them higher, but it's rare that a player here isn't valuing and running non-basics.
I'm not as sold as everyone else just yet. She's weak against every removal spell and a poor topdeck. She rumbles well, but I think it's easy to overestimate the rest of her abilities, since cube isn't saturated with nonbasics and Imposing Sovereign gets worse when your opponent has had extra time to deploy creatures. The baseline's probably reasonable enough to test, but White 3-drops are pretty ludicrous. Still hope to hear good results.
I agree with this, I definitely don't think she breaks into the top tier of white 3 drops. But I wouldn't sleep on the non-basic coming into play tapped clause. I'm potentially biased by my double fetch land cube, but shutting down 2 turns (fetch + fetch dual) seems like such a crushing tempo blow when it happens.... Then add in wasteland or LD effects on top of that...
I'm excited to test, but I wouldn't surprised if she was on par with the soltari champion, silverblade paladin quality of white 3 drop.
FWIW I also suspect she's better in legacy than in modern/standard based on her tempo inefficiency to removal that you mentioned.
I love Thalia 1.0 and am looking forward to trying this new version.
3 power first strike for a splashable 3 mana is fine but I really like the redundancy it offers in case you miss out on Thalia 1.0 or Imposing Sovereign. Probably going to try it out over Silverblade Paladin.
I'm not as sold as everyone else just yet. She's weak against every removal spell and a poor topdeck. She rumbles well, but I think it's easy to overestimate the rest of her abilities, since cube isn't saturated with nonbasics and Imposing Sovereign gets worse when your opponent has had extra time to deploy creatures. The baseline's probably reasonable enough to test, but White 3-drops are pretty ludicrous. Still hope to hear good results.
I agree with this, I definitely don't think she breaks into the top tier of white 3 drops. But I wouldn't sleep on the non-basic coming into play tapped clause. I'm potentially biased by my double fetch land cube, but shutting down 2 turns (fetch + fetch dual) seems like such a crushing tempo blow when it happens.... Then add in wasteland or LD effects on top of that...
I'm excited to test, but I wouldn't surprised if she was on par with the soltari champion, silverblade paladin quality of white 3 drop.
FWIW I also suspect she's better in legacy than in modern/standard based on her tempo inefficiency to removal that you mentioned.
I think she's leagues above Silverblade Paladin and probably more consistent than Mirror Entity and Soltari Champion.
Thalia's value lies in the fact that she's basically the love child of Porclain Legionnaire and Imposing Soverign. Having that ability strapped onto a 3/2 first striker is SO MUCH better than a 2/1 with no combat abilities. It allows you to get through token generating planewalkers much easily since their defense is now delayed by a turn. Thalia 2.0 is also a pretty decent play post-wrath since any creature they cast won't be able to block for a turn.
Honestly, I'm not that excited about her non-basic clause. I mean, I'll take it, but it's her least impressive attribute, IMO, and I'd probably run her without it. I agree that she doesn't crack the top tier 3 cmc options in white, but she seems very promising.
I'm not as sold as everyone else just yet. She's weak against every removal spell and a poor topdeck. She rumbles well, but I think it's easy to overestimate the rest of her abilities, since cube isn't saturated with nonbasics and Imposing Sovereign gets worse when your opponent has had extra time to deploy creatures. The baseline's probably reasonable enough to test, but White 3-drops are pretty ludicrous. Still hope to hear good results.
Being weak against removal is something I will never holds a 3 drop to, ever.
I don't think she's bad, but I'd be surprised if she lived up to this thread's hype. She's fragile, doesn't have a lot of sweet interactions, and isn't going to be punishing many nonbasics in the average matchup. She'll probably be sweet as an aggressive white beatdown 3-drop, but there are plenty of cards that fill that role already.
Not sure if I'm going to cube her. I ran Kismet in my peasant cube forever, but no one else liked it.
The single W in the casting cost makes this card so much sexier since I want to be running this with stuff like Sinkhole and Braids. Corner case but I'm enjoying the fact that it kills Thragtusk and Reflector Mage in combat (both will still get value but at least it's something for aggro).
I don't think she's bad, but I'd be surprised if she lived up to this thread's hype. She's fragile, doesn't have a lot of sweet interactions, and isn't going to be punishing many nonbasics in the average matchup. She'll probably be sweet as an aggressive white beatdown 3-drop, but there are plenty of cards that fill that role already.
Not sure if I'm going to cube her. I ran Kismet in my peasant cube forever, but no one else liked it.
Uhh.....
- She actually does have a lot of sweet interactions since she helps bolster already-established disruption strategies commonly played in aggro
- Her non-basic clause is probably her least impressive ability, but it's better than nothing
- Most 3-drops fail the SHOCK test let alone the bolt test
- Kismet isn't attached to a 3/2 first striker
For me it's probably going to be that 1WW guy that makes flying tokens when he dies. Forget the name.
Hallowed Spiritkeeper has been a house for my token happy cube. It is one of those cards that isn't part of the the most explosive wins but has helped so many comebacks and wrecks the big removal decks that white has trouble with.
If you could only have one, would you choose Spiritkeeper or Mirror Entity for the token decks? I'm leaning towards Mirror Entity but I'd be open to thoughts on this.
Flickerwisp is also a potential cut for Thalia but it's a crowd favorite over here.
Hallowed Spiritkeeper > Mirror Entity in my book since it's also abusable with Recurring Nightmare. Mirror Entity doesn't always make the cut in my white aggro decks, but Hallowed Spiritkeeper usually does.
I'm surprised to see a lot of people aren't too down with Flickerwisp, I think it's the best cubable blink effect (not card, that'd be Restoration Angel). It has good power, evasion, and its blink effect can do so many things like...
- Abuse dozens upon dozens of awesome ETB triggers
- Take out a blocker for a turn
- Kill any creature token
- Give one of your creatures pseudo-vigilance
- Use a minus ability on a planeswalker and flicker it to reset its loyalty counters
- Flicker an opponent's planeswalker to bring its loyalty down
- "Untap" a mana source
- Make your opponent's equipment / auras Rancor fall off
For me it's probably going to be that 1WW guy that makes flying tokens when he dies. Forget the name.
Hallowed Spiritkeeper has been a house for my token happy cube. It is one of those cards that isn't part of the the most explosive wins but has helped so many comebacks and wrecks the big removal decks that white has trouble with.
If you could only have one, would you choose Spiritkeeper or Mirror Entity for the token decks? I'm leaning towards Mirror Entity but I'd be open to thoughts on this.
Flickerwisp is also a potential cut for Thalia but it's a crowd favorite over here.
I only like mirror entity in GW (ways to generate mana). Like spiritkeeper a decent amount more.
I understand people cutting mirran crusader for his polarizing power (bonkers against some archetypes, meh against others). He's also not very synergistic.. Leading to a mediocore play experience. But on an individual card power level, he's the #2 white 3 drop in my eyes. (subject to debate)
I'm not as sold as everyone else just yet. She's weak against every removal spell and a poor topdeck. She rumbles well, but I think it's easy to overestimate the rest of her abilities, since cube isn't saturated with nonbasics and Imposing Sovereign gets worse when your opponent has had extra time to deploy creatures. The baseline's probably reasonable enough to test, but White 3-drops are pretty ludicrous. Still hope to hear good results.
Being weak against removal is something I will never holds a 3 drop to, ever.
I've heard people saying this multiple times in this forum and it's 1000% incorrect.
Losing tempo efficiency to removal (while generating no value) is absolutely something that devalues a card. In a format of bolts, shocks, path to exile, doom blades, multiple wrath of gods 3 mana creatures that generate no value to sorcery speed removal need to be excellent to be playable.
How well creatures align with the removal of the format is one of the central attributes in magic that determines a creatures value. In a powered cube too.... I was too high on Drana, underestimating this concept. I will never make that mistake again.
I always found Mirran Crusader to be meh unless he was buffed by equipment, counters, anthems, or Elspeth. I'd like him more if he could be enchanted by Rancor, zzz.
Also, he's also nowhere near my #2 in the 3 cmc white section. My top 5 would be
- Brimaz, King of Oreskos
- Blade Splicer
- Flickerwisp
- Hallowed Spiritkeeper
- Monastery Mentor (would rank higher in a powered cube)
I think Brimaz and Blade Splicer are the clear top 2, the order of 3-5 is splitting hairs for me and is very cube dependent probably, but it'd definitely be between those three.
I'm not as sold as everyone else just yet. She's weak against every removal spell and a poor topdeck. She rumbles well, but I think it's easy to overestimate the rest of her abilities, since cube isn't saturated with nonbasics and Imposing Sovereign gets worse when your opponent has had extra time to deploy creatures. The baseline's probably reasonable enough to test, but White 3-drops are pretty ludicrous. Still hope to hear good results.
Being weak against removal is something I will never holds a 3 drop to, ever.
I've heard people saying this multiple times in this forum and it's 1000% incorrect.
Losing tempo efficiency to removal (while generating no value) is absolutely something that devalues a card. In a format of bolts, shocks, path to exile, doom blades, multiple wrath of gods 3 mana creatures that generate no value to sorcery speed removal need to be excellent to be playable.
How well creatures align with the removal of the format is one of the central attributes in magic that determines a creatures value. In a powered cube too.... I was too high on Drana, underestimating this concept. I will never make that mistake again.
I think Drana is extremely impressive and she doesn't disappoint in my powered 360 cube. She's amongst the weaker 3 drop but that's because other black 3 drops are absolutely busted.
Finding a cut for this is going to be brutal. I love my white 3-drops and my players adore the shadow guys. I may cut Mirror Entity but that seems bad too.
You're definitely in the minority there, but I'm still surprised and impressed that this set symbol has been generating so many opinions.
Anyway, I'm more concerned with that wonky-ass 80s Glam look Thalia's sporting. I hope the regular art looks a little less unintentionally silly.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
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Whilst your criticisms about timing have some validity (and certainly I'd be fine with this card costing 1 less), I don't think you're being entirely fair here. I shouldn't have to tell you this, but "dies to removal" begins to lose meaning as a complaint when we're talking about creatures that cost less than 4. I also question that topdeck comment. She's not "poor" as a topdeck unless you're expecting a huge Hail Mary. A 3-power first striker is solid the majority of the time. Does her Kismet ability lose value/relevance over time? Sure. But it's also great on curve (especially on the play). Ultimately, I'd be about as happy to see a Thalia 2.0 off the top as I would most 3 drops in white. It's not gonna take over a game singlehandedly, but it WILL be an effective body just the same.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
She has good stats and relevant disruption and a splashable casting cost. She's not a complete stat monster like Brimaz or can be milked for tokens like Hallowed Spiritkeeper / Blade Splicer, but I think she's overall more useful than the pseudo-anthems like Mirror Entity and Soltari Champion.
The Imposing Sovereign effect is actually really useful against all the token generators we have running around these days, now they have to wait a turn before they puke up a wall of defense. Unlike OG Thalia, her ability doesn't mess with your stuff and doesn't make your planeswalkers / armageddons / equipment cost more.
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I agree with this, I definitely don't think she breaks into the top tier of white 3 drops. But I wouldn't sleep on the non-basic coming into play tapped clause. I'm potentially biased by my double fetch land cube, but shutting down 2 turns (fetch + fetch dual) seems like such a crushing tempo blow when it happens.... Then add in wasteland or LD effects on top of that...
I'm excited to test, but I wouldn't surprised if she was on par with the soltari champion, silverblade paladin quality of white 3 drop.
FWIW I also suspect she's better in legacy than in modern/standard based on her tempo inefficiency to removal that you mentioned.
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3 power first strike for a splashable 3 mana is fine but I really like the redundancy it offers in case you miss out on Thalia 1.0 or Imposing Sovereign. Probably going to try it out over Silverblade Paladin.
Modern:
Dredge | Restore Balance | Titanshift
My [360][Unpowered][Modern-Frame] Cube
I think she's leagues above Silverblade Paladin and probably more consistent than Mirror Entity and Soltari Champion.
Thalia's value lies in the fact that she's basically the love child of Porclain Legionnaire and Imposing Soverign. Having that ability strapped onto a 3/2 first striker is SO MUCH better than a 2/1 with no combat abilities. It allows you to get through token generating planewalkers much easily since their defense is now delayed by a turn. Thalia 2.0 is also a pretty decent play post-wrath since any creature they cast won't be able to block for a turn.
Honestly, I'm not that excited about her non-basic clause. I mean, I'll take it, but it's her least impressive attribute, IMO, and I'd probably run her without it. I agree that she doesn't crack the top tier 3 cmc options in white, but she seems very promising.
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Being weak against removal is something I will never holds a 3 drop to, ever.
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Not sure if I'm going to cube her. I ran Kismet in my peasant cube forever, but no one else liked it.
Uhh.....
- She actually does have a lot of sweet interactions since she helps bolster already-established disruption strategies commonly played in aggro
- Her non-basic clause is probably her least impressive ability, but it's better than nothing
- Most 3-drops fail the SHOCK test let alone the bolt test
- Kismet isn't attached to a 3/2 first striker
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Flickerwisp is also a potential cut for Thalia but it's a crowd favorite over here.
I'm surprised to see a lot of people aren't too down with Flickerwisp, I think it's the best cubable blink effect (not card, that'd be Restoration Angel). It has good power, evasion, and its blink effect can do so many things like...
- Abuse dozens upon dozens of awesome ETB triggers
- Take out a blocker for a turn
- Kill any creature token
- Give one of your creatures pseudo-vigilance
- Use a minus ability on a planeswalker and flicker it to reset its loyalty counters
- Flicker an opponent's planeswalker to bring its loyalty down
- "Untap" a mana source
- Make your opponent's equipment /
aurasRancor fall offMy High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
I only like mirror entity in GW (ways to generate mana). Like spiritkeeper a decent amount more.
I understand people cutting mirran crusader for his polarizing power (bonkers against some archetypes, meh against others). He's also not very synergistic.. Leading to a mediocore play experience. But on an individual card power level, he's the #2 white 3 drop in my eyes. (subject to debate)
Last Updated 02/07/24
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I've heard people saying this multiple times in this forum and it's 1000% incorrect.
Losing tempo efficiency to removal (while generating no value) is absolutely something that devalues a card. In a format of bolts, shocks, path to exile, doom blades, multiple wrath of gods 3 mana creatures that generate no value to sorcery speed removal need to be excellent to be playable.
How well creatures align with the removal of the format is one of the central attributes in magic that determines a creatures value. In a powered cube too.... I was too high on Drana, underestimating this concept. I will never make that mistake again.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Also, he's also nowhere near my #2 in the 3 cmc white section. My top 5 would be
- Brimaz, King of Oreskos
- Blade Splicer
- Flickerwisp
- Hallowed Spiritkeeper
- Monastery Mentor (would rank higher in a powered cube)
I think Brimaz and Blade Splicer are the clear top 2, the order of 3-5 is splitting hairs for me and is very cube dependent probably, but it'd definitely be between those three.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I think Drana is extremely impressive and she doesn't disappoint in my powered 360 cube. She's amongst the weaker 3 drop but that's because other black 3 drops are absolutely busted.
Let's just agree to disagree.
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Blade Splicer
Monastery Mentor
Eldrazi Displacer
Mirror Entity
Hallowed Spiritkeeper
Brimaz
Flickerwisp
I think Mirror Entity will be my cut, but... that's a tough cut. Can't add any more three drops though!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms: