I love this card. With the slew of ETB/Leaves play/sac abilities in cube this has applications in all colors. Worst case is a hasty recurring creature.
Things I like about the vat:
- Costs nothing to imprint. You can imprint without worrying about the timing. (Eg no need to leave mana open)
- (Edit) Unlike other imprints, there is no card disadvantage here as you are imprinting something already dying.
- You can hose opponents’ recursion - and better yet - use it against him multiple times!
- You can upgrade your imprints when needed
- Your “Unimprinted” cards go back to the yard for further abuse.
This card has come under fire with the recent printing of Biogenic Ooze. What do you think of Kalonian Hydra? A 5 cost green beater that ends the game quickly. It doesn't provide any value if removed on sight, but it does have good synergies to go along with its built-in fast clock. Hadana's Climb ends the game on the spot if my math is correct.
Bonus Question: What are the best fatties in cube that see play despite providing no value when killed on sight?
Kalonian Hydra is still good, but I think it's been squeezed out of smaller cubes because of the printing of Ooze and Gearhulk.
The best fattie that provides no immediate value is Wurmcoil Engine, although I'm not sure that is in line with what you are asking since it does usually give you something when removed. Of the big creatures that just do nothing if they die before swinging, Sphinx of the Steel Wind is probably the best.
This is a symmetrical effect that plays well in many red decks and doesn't require much effort to build around.
What I like:
In aggro, it hurts you more than the opponent, but the mission is the end the game quickly and your life total is often irrelevant. It does that job very well, especially if it can come down on turn 2 (more to be said on this later). It's probably the best 2 drop in red if it comes down on turn 2.
In midrange decks, it's a decent support player. Eidolon can give you some pseudo-reach and/or stall the opponent while you find some other way to end the game.
Against storm and spells matter decks, Eidolon is one of the best cards you can have.
What I don't like:
The double red cost means it doesn't often come down on turn 2 unless your deck is at least primarily red. If it was 1 colorless and 1 red, I think this card would see a lot more play.
The symmetrical effect isn't as good of a payoff as many other cheap, symmetrical effects commonly seen in cube, a la Winter Orb or Balance (they're both easier to cast as well).
The storm archetype isn't run in some cubes, lowering Eidolon's power level.
Overall:
Eidolon is acceptable in a 360 cube (powered or unpowered), but not a staple. Obviously, as cube size increases the inclusion of Eidolon is more warranted.
I forced mono-red a lot in the past iteration of the MTGO vintage cube, and Eidolon was always fantastic. Always demanded an answer from the opponent because of how much damage it represented at it's manacost, and they're answer usually also shocked them, which is a great floor. I imagine Eidolon plays better in powered than unpowered, and I don't run it at 360 unpowered, but I'd guess its not bad in unpowered, either.
Bonus Question: What are the best fatties in cube that see play despite providing no value when killed on sight?
I love this type of question as it's hard to properly answer. What makes a value creature? If a creature can get exiled immediately after being cast without any value, does that automatically make it not a value creature? If so, Consecrated Sphynx isn't a value creature, which makes me think that might not be the only way one should judge value. Do death triggers make a creature a value creature? What about haste, or creatures with valuable effects once in the graveyard? It's not black and white.
I think the best no-value fatties that are meant to be hard cast normally (and not cheated in with reanimate, sneak/show, etc) are probably Baneslayer Angel, Lyra Dawnbringer, Kalonian Hydra, Carnage Tyrant, Abyssal Persecutor and Doom Whisperer (which is arguably a value creature), off the top of my head.
I actually prefer to run a certain amount of expensive creatures that don't have value to keep removal good. Too great of a density of value creatures makes removal actively bad and board wipe essential to recover when you fall behind. What playable green 5 cmc creature sees cube play and isn't a value card besides Kalonian Hydra?
Great response and I think Consecrated Sphinx answers my question adequately. Some of the other 5 drops you mentioned might qualify better since you need your turn to come around again, Sphinx provides value on their draw step.
I try to justify inclusion based on the Vindicate test rather than the Terminate test since so much of the flexible removal in the cube is sorcery speed. So Consecrated Sphinx would pass the removal test in my book.
Eidilon's strength in the mono-red deck makes it more than worth including IMO, as it punishes some of the best early blockers they can play if you get it down on t2. I think it will be a long time before I cut it.
The poor mans Sword of Feast and Famine. The card can pay for itself the turn it comes into play and has the potential to make future turns very explosive. The lands untap before blockers are assigned allowing you to play instant speed interaction to clear the board the same turn. Almost reminds me of the Kaladesh "Expertise" cycle in that it is almost free to cast and has a very high ceiling. Has Totem Armor to help mitigate 2 for 1 scenarios.
Thoughts? Also what Enchant Creatures do you find playable in cube?
That's a very optimistic analysis. Besides the regular aura issues of requiring a creature in play and being weak to removal and bounce, the effect you get is conditional and will often do nothing. We know this from Sword of Feast and Famine. To really abuse it, you need a steady stream of cards, and that a large chunk of them will be proactive and unconditional. That or a curve full of 4 and 5 drops, which is non viable in most cubes and has a self contradiction with the card's need for cheap creatures to enchant. It doesn't even add trample.
Totem Armor is not a very helpful mechanic in general, it does nothing against white spot removals, Control Magic effects, edicts, -X/-X or bounce.
Re: Bear Umbra, I want to be favorable to the oddball card with a powerful effect, but there are just so many ways for it to do nothing, and such a narrow band of decks I’d be excited to play it in that I just don’t see it.
In my cube, I run Rancor and Madcap Skills as my only positive Enchant Creatures.
I ran Empyrial Armor for a while too, and it was pretty good, but it lost a lot of stock when I pulled the WhiteShadow2-drops
Rancor is the best aura, but I play elephant guide too. In white I play gryffs boon and angelic destiny. And in red I play splinter twin. Not to mention blues mind control and blacks necromany effects
The non-artifact clause still hits most of the relevant targets in cubes.
Negatives
It costs 5 life
It's a sorcery
The mana cost is black intensive
Doesn't kill artifact creatures.
Requires 2 legal targets to cast, making it somewhat restrictive.
This card was initially added to my cube when my cube was much weaker and has continued to be a favorite for my playgroup as my cube has become much leaner. Having removal that exiles two creatures for three mana has been very powerful, but the 5 life is a heavy cost.
I liked it in Peasant, but that’s a lot more midrangey and a lot less combo oriented than a rare/powered cube. I think the power’s there, but it doesn’t do anything against common board states where you immediately need removal.
Sorcery speed is a big drawback versus Reckless Spite, which can at least interact with a Twin combo or Hellrider (kind of), but Malicious Affliction has an edge on both of them.
The more your list’s about Obstinate Baloths and Baneslayer Angels, and the less it’s about combos or aggro, the better that kind of card gets
Yeah, 5 life and needing 2 targets is rough. I want to run some of these 2 target black kill spells, but they never seem to get there. This one is sorcery speed, reckless spite can't hit black creatures, and affliction was too inconsistent at hitting morbid.
This is probably great in bigger cubes or slower, more dragony cubes. In a small, tuned list though there's too many games where you don't have 2 targets or can't lose 5 life.
It is definitely very flexible, but a lot of its combinations feel a little overpriced at 5 mana. I do like it is a hard counter for non creatures and not something softer like mana leaking them, but the -3/-3 isn't blowing my mind as threats by that stage are going to be a bit bigger than this can kill and the boomerang is useful but situational.
I think I could find a slot if it shaved a mana off, or at least I would be much more interested but 5 mana is just such a pain to hold open, especially when you are hoping to counter a non creature but have to settle on bounce + kill a X/3 creature.
I think it’s deefinitely playable, but I could never see running it before Strix or Ashiok.
Silumgar 2.0, Scarab God, Thief of Sanity and Hostage Taker are all stronger, and I don’t know if it’s better from a value-spell standpoint than Ribbons of Night, but I could see jamming it in one of their places.
I hate to admit it, but it’s probably stronger than Psychatog or Tezzeret AoB, but I think it’s less cubeworthy because it’s more generic midrange value and less of a combo-enabler than either.
It's an okay card in a sea of good options. It's a card I'd play in my UB control decks, but I could never cube it over one of the like ~10+ better cards available.
Things I like about the vat:
- Costs nothing to imprint. You can imprint without worrying about the timing. (Eg no need to leave mana open)
- (Edit) Unlike other imprints, there is no card disadvantage here as you are imprinting something already dying.
- You can hose opponents’ recursion - and better yet - use it against him multiple times!
- You can upgrade your imprints when needed
- Your “Unimprinted” cards go back to the yard for further abuse.
This card has come under fire with the recent printing of Biogenic Ooze. What do you think of Kalonian Hydra? A 5 cost green beater that ends the game quickly. It doesn't provide any value if removed on sight, but it does have good synergies to go along with its built-in fast clock. Hadana's Climb ends the game on the spot if my math is correct.
Bonus Question: What are the best fatties in cube that see play despite providing no value when killed on sight?
The best fattie that provides no immediate value is Wurmcoil Engine, although I'm not sure that is in line with what you are asking since it does usually give you something when removed. Of the big creatures that just do nothing if they die before swinging, Sphinx of the Steel Wind is probably the best.
Cheers,
rant
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Hydra is the worst of the green five drops in my cube, but its still better than what is on the outside.
Hermit > Slime > Thragtusk > Gearhulk = Ooze > Hydra >> Whisperwood
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Eidolon of the Great Revel
This is a symmetrical effect that plays well in many red decks and doesn't require much effort to build around.
What I like:
In aggro, it hurts you more than the opponent, but the mission is the end the game quickly and your life total is often irrelevant. It does that job very well, especially if it can come down on turn 2 (more to be said on this later). It's probably the best 2 drop in red if it comes down on turn 2.
In midrange decks, it's a decent support player. Eidolon can give you some pseudo-reach and/or stall the opponent while you find some other way to end the game.
Against storm and spells matter decks, Eidolon is one of the best cards you can have.
What I don't like:
The double red cost means it doesn't often come down on turn 2 unless your deck is at least primarily red. If it was 1 colorless and 1 red, I think this card would see a lot more play.
The symmetrical effect isn't as good of a payoff as many other cheap, symmetrical effects commonly seen in cube, a la Winter Orb or Balance (they're both easier to cast as well).
The storm archetype isn't run in some cubes, lowering Eidolon's power level.
Overall:
Eidolon is acceptable in a 360 cube (powered or unpowered), but not a staple. Obviously, as cube size increases the inclusion of Eidolon is more warranted.
Thoughts?
[180 classic cube]
I love this type of question as it's hard to properly answer. What makes a value creature? If a creature can get exiled immediately after being cast without any value, does that automatically make it not a value creature? If so, Consecrated Sphynx isn't a value creature, which makes me think that might not be the only way one should judge value. Do death triggers make a creature a value creature? What about haste, or creatures with valuable effects once in the graveyard? It's not black and white.
I think the best no-value fatties that are meant to be hard cast normally (and not cheated in with reanimate, sneak/show, etc) are probably Baneslayer Angel, Lyra Dawnbringer, Kalonian Hydra, Carnage Tyrant, Abyssal Persecutor and Doom Whisperer (which is arguably a value creature), off the top of my head.
I actually prefer to run a certain amount of expensive creatures that don't have value to keep removal good. Too great of a density of value creatures makes removal actively bad and board wipe essential to recover when you fall behind. What playable green 5 cmc creature sees cube play and isn't a value card besides Kalonian Hydra?
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Bear Umbra
The poor mans Sword of Feast and Famine. The card can pay for itself the turn it comes into play and has the potential to make future turns very explosive. The lands untap before blockers are assigned allowing you to play instant speed interaction to clear the board the same turn. Almost reminds me of the Kaladesh "Expertise" cycle in that it is almost free to cast and has a very high ceiling. Has Totem Armor to help mitigate 2 for 1 scenarios.
Thoughts? Also what Enchant Creatures do you find playable in cube?
The only Enchant Creature I run is Rancor.
Cheers,
rant
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Totem Armor is not a very helpful mechanic in general, it does nothing against white spot removals, Control Magic effects, edicts, -X/-X or bounce.
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In my cube, I run Rancor and Madcap Skills as my only positive Enchant Creatures.
I ran Empyrial Armor for a while too, and it was pretty good, but it lost a lot of stock when I pulled the White Shadow 2-drops
Ashes to Ashes
Positives
Negatives
This card was initially added to my cube when my cube was much weaker and has continued to be a favorite for my playgroup as my cube has become much leaner. Having removal that exiles two creatures for three mana has been very powerful, but the 5 life is a heavy cost.
What do you all think?
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Sorcery speed is a big drawback versus Reckless Spite, which can at least interact with a Twin combo or Hellrider (kind of), but Malicious Affliction has an edge on both of them.
The more your list’s about Obstinate Baloths and Baneslayer Angels, and the less it’s about combos or aggro, the better that kind of card gets
This is probably great in bigger cubes or slower, more dragony cubes. In a small, tuned list though there's too many games where you don't have 2 targets or can't lose 5 life.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Silumgar's Command
Positives
Negatives
I think I could find a slot if it shaved a mana off, or at least I would be much more interested but 5 mana is just such a pain to hold open, especially when you are hoping to counter a non creature but have to settle on bounce + kill a X/3 creature.
Silumgar 2.0, Scarab God, Thief of Sanity and Hostage Taker are all stronger, and I don’t know if it’s better from a value-spell standpoint than Ribbons of Night, but I could see jamming it in one of their places.
I hate to admit it, but it’s probably stronger than Psychatog or Tezzeret AoB, but I think it’s less cubeworthy because it’s more generic midrange value and less of a combo-enabler than either.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!