For cubes that are more combat-centric, these effects can be too temporary for my liking. But in combo-oriented cubes, the disruption is harder to overcome and is more important. There are certainly cube lists out there where Sculler is a great inclusion, but it ultimately didn't fit my configuration.
I'd rather run Mesmeric Fiend, and that still feels pretty meh/bad. Orzhov is too deep for a redundant, hard-to-cast version of a card that they have two mono colored versions of.
My cube is a bit more combo oriented than most, and been pretty happy with mesmeric fiend/tidehollow sculler effects. However, I speculate in many lists I see around here they don't quite deserve to make the cut.
Orzhov is sooooo stacked. I believe the power level of most of the cards not in the top tier, run close together. Giving larger cubes orzhov section a lot of flexibility. Tidehollow Sculler belongs in that list IMO.
Top tier:
Lingering souls
Vindicate
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
I don't think I would fault anyone for running any card in the second tier over another card in the second tier. .. Some cards are more powerful, some cards are more flexible, some cards are more synergistic, some cards are more fun. I sometimes change cards around just to mix it up!
Cool card, but too outclassed by Orzhov options nowadays. Would it even be in like the top 7 of Orzhov? We just got 2 pretty good exile effects in the last few sets.
Edit - There's no way this is even close to anguished unmaking in power level. I also think it's noticeably worse than gerrard's verdict, bad sorin, and unburial rights, and given the amount of removal cubes have nowadays, I actually like castigate more as disruption if you wanted that effect in BW (although I don't know why you would given how many great options there are for that effect in B). It's probably also worse than the khans of tarkir 4 cmc exile.
Edit - There's no way this is even close to anguished unmaking in power level. I also think it's noticeably worse than gerrard's verdict, bad sorin, and unburial rights, and given the amount of removal cubes have nowadays, I actually like castigate more as disruption if you wanted that effect in BW (although I don't know why you would given how many great options there are for that effect in B). It's probably also worse than the khans of tarkir 4 cmc exile.
It's pretty format dependent. Large difference between a 450 powered with combo support and 600 unpowered for example.
Tidehollow sculler sees fringe play in modern/legacy, anguished unmaking doesn't come close.
In generic limited, sorin planeswalkers would be by far the best card.
Unburial rites is awsome if you have gifts ungiven and a couple self mill/dredge effects (IE commune with the gods, life from the loam, satyr wayfinder) but is super narrow otherwise.
In more powerful formats, having a low curve is very important as is disruption and mana effeciency. Cube has a ton of competition for 3+ mana spells, that some "less powerful" 1-2 mana spells come at a premium.
A low curve, lower powered deck with proper disruption, would beat a slow deck with a high mana curve that has more powerful cards (within reason).
The format is always cube in the cube forum, and in that context asmallcat is 100% correct--anguished unmaking is leaps and bounds ahead of tide hollow sculler. I think it's safe to ignore their spot on the curve and look at what they do, with Tidehollow Sculler essentially countered by removal and Anguished Unmaking being that hard removal which answers pretty much everything, something that is much much more valuable in cube than a two-color mesmeric fiend.
I agree that there's no room for Mesmeric Fiend in a 360, but at the largest cube size I think 1 mesmeric fiend variant is a fine inclusion. They can absolutely destroy a gameplan.
The format is always cube in the cube forum, and in that context asmallcat is 100% correct--anguished unmaking is leaps and bounds ahead of tide hollow sculler. I think it's safe to ignore their spot on the curve and look at what they do, with Tidehollow Sculler essentially countered by removal and Anguished Unmaking being that hard removal which answers pretty much everything, something that is much much more valuable in cube than a two-color mesmeric fiend.
No.
YOUR cube is a format, my cube is a format, MTGO cube is a format. Acknowledgement of the variation that exists within formats and how the efficacy of a card is contingent upon those variations is essential.
There's some cards that are fairly static in power dependent on the cube composition, some vary wildly. Tidehollow sculler's power varies wildly.
In a full-on combo cube tidehollow sculler would be excellent and anguished unmaking would be close to unplayable.
In my cube format, which isn't that far off of a lot of peoples here. I'm 100% sure that for the decks that actively want a sculler effect, tidehollow sculler is reasonably close in power to anguished unmaking. The lack of good hand disruption options AND plethora of removal spells in BW make it a more desired effect to build a 3-0 deck.. You will likely get 1-2 expensive universal removal spells anyway, and that's all you want. Ideally you want at least 3 early curve hand disruption spells.
I agree that there's no room for Mesmeric Fiend in a 360, but at the largest cube size I think 1 mesmeric fiend variant is a fine inclusion. They can absolutely destroy a gameplan.
Sure, but there's a lot of PERMANENT discard at just B. I'm saying I don't think I'd play Mez Fiend even if it was a 2/2 like the Sculler here.
The format is always cube in the cube forum, and in that context asmallcat is 100% correct--anguished unmaking is leaps and bounds ahead of tide hollow sculler. I think it's safe to ignore their spot on the curve and look at what they do, with Tidehollow Sculler essentially countered by removal and Anguished Unmaking being that hard removal which answers pretty much everything, something that is much much more valuable in cube than a two-color mesmeric fiend.
No.
YOUR cube is a format, my cube is a format, MTGO cube is a format. Acknowledgement of the variation that exists within formats and how the efficacy of a card is contingent upon those variations is essential.
There's some cards that are fairly static in power dependent on the cube composition, some vary wildly. Tidehollow sculler's power varies wildly.
In a full-on combo cube tidehollow sculler would be excellent and anguished unmaking would be close to unplayable.
In my cube format, which isn't that far off of a lot of peoples here. I'm 100% sure that for the decks that actively want a sculler effect, tidehollow sculler is reasonably close in power to anguished unmaking. The lack of good hand disruption options AND plethora of removal spells in BW make it a more desired effect to build a 3-0 deck.. You will likely get 1-2 expensive universal removal spells anyway, and that's all you want. Ideally you want at least 3 early curve hand disruption spells.
We are on the cube forums, it is silly to discuss cards in context of other formats like legacy or modern, or expect other users to. And even though our cubes are different like all cubes there, there are general principles and concepts that have to be true if we're going to have a general cube discussion. Saying "this is a good/bad cube card" needs to mean something without adding a million caveats. And even in a combo cube there's no way I run sculler of anguished unmaking, as the instant speed aspect of that Anguished Unmaking is certainly going to have an effect against combo decks along with being that great against so many other decks. (EDIT: I misinterpreted your comment, I thought you meant a cube that features combo--yes, in an all combo cube then tide hollow sculler would be better. However since that is not a cube I really consider when evaluating card power and not one I think most people would, anguished unmaking is generally a lot better as hard removal>>>>temporary discard.)
Acknowledging the variations between formats is big, but even bigger is acknowledging the similarities in order to have general discussions that are all inclusive. Adding a caveat like "in my such and such cube this is how it performs" is certainly helpful, but when someone else says "this card is bad and I don't like it", I'm not going to question whether he believes it's bad in every possible of iteration of cube out there--I'm going to understand it's a personal experience he had with his cube, take that for what it is, and use his response + the sum of all the other opinions and draw my own conclusions for my own group.
I agree that there's no room for Mesmeric Fiend in a 360, but at the largest cube size I think 1 mesmeric fiend variant is a fine inclusion. They can absolutely destroy a gameplan.
Sure, but there's a lot of PERMANENT discard at just B. I'm saying I don't think I'd play Mez Fiend even if it was a 2/2 like the Sculler here.
The permanent discard really drops off the bigger your cube list gets, and I've found that Mez Fiend is pretty fine in the 720/1080 variants. Plus it's a creature so there's some benefit to it there (along with the negatives, of course.)
A 2/2 Mes Fiend for 1B would be very cool. I would like that. Sculler has the relevance of being an artifact and a zombie, but WB is far too tight now.
I'd play a 2/3 Zombie Mesmeric Fiend, maybe even if it was BB. The 3rd toughness would be huge on an effect like this, and the additional pressure would make it easier to maindeck as a generic aggro beater.
The format is always cube in the cube forum, and in that context asmallcat is 100% correct--anguished unmaking is leaps and bounds ahead of tide hollow sculler. I think it's safe to ignore their spot on the curve and look at what they do, with Tidehollow Sculler essentially countered by removal and Anguished Unmaking being that hard removal which answers pretty much everything, something that is much much more valuable in cube than a two-color mesmeric fiend.
No.
YOUR cube is a format, my cube is a format, MTGO cube is a format. Acknowledgement of the variation that exists within formats and how the efficacy of a card is contingent upon those variations is essential.
There's some cards that are fairly static in power dependent on the cube composition, some vary wildly. Tidehollow sculler's power varies wildly.
In a full-on combo cube tidehollow sculler would be excellent and anguished unmaking would be close to unplayable.
In my cube format, which isn't that far off of a lot of peoples here. I'm 100% sure that for the decks that actively want a sculler effect, tidehollow sculler is reasonably close in power to anguished unmaking. The lack of good hand disruption options AND plethora of removal spells in BW make it a more desired effect to build a 3-0 deck.. You will likely get 1-2 expensive universal removal spells anyway, and that's all you want. Ideally you want at least 3 early curve hand disruption spells.
We are on the cube forums, it is silly to discuss cards in context of other formats like legacy or modern, or expect other users to. And even though our cubes are different like all cubes there, there are general principles and concepts that have to be true if we're going to have a general cube discussion. Saying "this is a good/bad cube card" needs to mean something without adding a million caveats. And even in a combo cube there's no way I run sculler of anguished unmaking, as the instant speed aspect of that Anguished Unmaking is certainly going to have an effect against combo decks along with being that great against so many other decks. (EDIT: I misinterpreted your comment, I thought you meant a cube that features combo--yes, in an all combo cube then tide hollow sculler would be better. However since that is not a cube I really consider when evaluating card power and not one I think most people would, anguished unmaking is generally a lot better as hard removal>>>>temporary discard.)
Acknowledging the variations between formats is big, but even bigger is acknowledging the similarities in order to have general discussions that are all inclusive. Adding a caveat like "in my such and such cube this is how it performs" is certainly helpful, but when someone else says "this card is bad and I don't like it", I'm not going to question whether he believes it's bad in every possible of iteration of cube out there--I'm going to understand it's a personal experience he had with his cube, take that for what it is, and use his response + the sum of all the other opinions and draw my own conclusions for my own group.
Sorry for the condescending tone in my post, I took some adderall this morning and it brings that out in me.
I like bringing other formats into the discussion (within reason) as it's interesting to identify WHY a card is good in some formats and not others. Sometimes the factors that make card A good in it's standard format, but bad in modern; are the same factors why it's good in a large unpowered cube and bad in a tight powered cube.
When I see blanket statements like card A is WAY better than card B, if those cards value are highly context specific, discussing nuances of a format become important.
But yeah, I agree with you, if someone says "Card A is > Card B" without context, we can assume he's implying it's about his cube... Which is ok... It's when disagreements occur, that people can end up talking past each other. Asmallcat appeared to replying to my post above his with his comment saying there's "No way tidehollow sculler is = to anguished unmaking". A pointless discussion if I'm only referring to my cube, and he's referring only to his.
I'd play a 2/3 Zombie Mesmeric Fiend, maybe even if it was BB. The 3rd toughness would be huge on an effect like this, and the additional pressure would make it easier to maindeck as a generic aggro beater.
I would snap off that card so hard haha. Zombie synergies, disruption vs combo, enough power to beat down and a blocker vs agro (strip their removal spell, block 2/2's).
Not in the realm of unprintable either... Unlikely for sure, but not impossible.
Nekrataal is still great after all these years. Yeah, Shriekmaw and arguably Skinrender are better, but it's hard to have too many kill spells on bodies in black. This one gets extra points for having 2 power, so you can do 'lark and Alesha shenanigans.
I was kind of hoping we'd get around to this one because it's one of those cards that I know why it should be great but just never got there for us in practice. When I look at a card like Shriekmaw I see flexibility, splashability, evasion, synergy. I look at Nekrataal and I see an overcosted kill spell that leaves behind an abysmal body. Not something I'm willing to spend 4 mana on in any theatre.
After reading every possible argument for it and never seeing it play out, it finally got the axe and hasn't been missed.
As a sidenote I really enjoy the original printing's art and flavour text; the subtype "Nekrataal" makes it even better.
This has been my issue too. With all the kill spells and 187 bodies, I tend to lean towards cheaper/easier to splash variants (shriek maw, bone shredder) or the more unique ones. (Skin Render and...well I guess just Skin Render?) Not that Nekrataal is bad, it just has played out as the worst/hardest to cast of the options.
Nekrataal's nowhere near the chopping block for me. It's solid removal, and a 2/1 first strike body is hardly abysmal. It does a great job of holding back weenies after it's taken down your opponent's biggest creature. Sure, Shriekmaw's better, but Nekrataal's still a close 2nd as black 187 creatures go.
As a sidenote I really enjoy the original printing's art and flavour text; the subtype "Nekrataal" makes it even better.
Flavorwise, I think that WoTC made a mistake by changing Nekrataal into a Human. From the original art and flavor text, you know this was supposed to be something far more horrifying than a mere homo sapien. A real opportunity was lost to make an entire tribe of murderous nekrataals, each one with a different hat and targeting restriction. I'm tempted run the original for the old frame and that sweet flavor text, but I'm a stickler for Oracle text on the cards in my cube so I run the 9th edition, and in foil so it still has a black border. I'll let my Nekrataal be a Human Assassin, but no way do I ever run any version where he doesn't wear the electric purple turban!
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
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He does suffer a little from creature power creep over the past twenty years, but he's still good. That's good design, since not many creatures are still considered well balanced after 20 years. You're playing a sorcery speed Terror and getting a 2/1 first striker for 1B. I've first picked this guy in weak packs, and the only time I wouldn't run him is when I'm playing against a very deep black deck, and then he's just sideboarded.
I also agree, I always thought he was a zombie because of the "Nekra" in his name, but Wahtzee apparently had other things in mind.
Nekrataal holds a special place in my heart because he was in the first pre-con deck I ever played and probably the first good card I've ever cast.
Nostalgia goggles aside, I still think he's a staple even with Kalitas being around. The range of things that Nekrataal can kill that Skinrender can't is quite large. First strike is huge as tokens become more popular, and he's a 187 creature that fits into the 2-power or less family (Reveilark / Imperial Recruiter / Alesha).
His only true downside is that he can't hit black / artifact creatures, so he could be a dud in certain matchups.
Nekrataal is an old standby in decks of mine stretching back to Visions release. He featured in my first UB control deck. His Terror effect was excellent.
In my cube he's stuck so far. Eventually Wizards will print another 187 creature in black, maybe even a 2/2 for a similar cost and Nekrataal will make his way out, but today is not that day.
As a side note, this card is a prime example for me of the veteran bias against new art. The Moeller piece is great. Poised above a caravan of travelers ready to strike from behind the rocks. Screamy McLightningface with the chalk outlines of bugs on his swords is just a lower quality piece of work.
At least with the always superior new invitational illustrations, I understand why veterans want to keep the tribute to the winner intact. But stuff like this just baffles me. If you showed both of these pieces to someone who had never seen either one and asked them which one they preferred, you'd get Moeller's piece 99/100 I'll wager. But that's not much like the ratio in the cube community.
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Orzhov is sooooo stacked. I believe the power level of most of the cards not in the top tier, run close together. Giving larger cubes orzhov section a lot of flexibility. Tidehollow Sculler belongs in that list IMO.
Top tier:
Lingering souls
Vindicate
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Second tier:
Gerrard's Verdict
Unburial Rites
Sorin solemn Visitor
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Anguished Unmaking
Tidehollow sculler
Obzedat, ghost council
I don't think I would fault anyone for running any card in the second tier over another card in the second tier. .. Some cards are more powerful, some cards are more flexible, some cards are more synergistic, some cards are more fun. I sometimes change cards around just to mix it up!
Last Updated 02/07/24
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Edit - There's no way this is even close to anguished unmaking in power level. I also think it's noticeably worse than gerrard's verdict, bad sorin, and unburial rights, and given the amount of removal cubes have nowadays, I actually like castigate more as disruption if you wanted that effect in BW (although I don't know why you would given how many great options there are for that effect in B). It's probably also worse than the khans of tarkir 4 cmc exile.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
It's pretty format dependent. Large difference between a 450 powered with combo support and 600 unpowered for example.
Tidehollow sculler sees fringe play in modern/legacy, anguished unmaking doesn't come close.
In generic limited, sorin planeswalkers would be by far the best card.
Unburial rites is awsome if you have gifts ungiven and a couple self mill/dredge effects (IE commune with the gods, life from the loam, satyr wayfinder) but is super narrow otherwise.
In more powerful formats, having a low curve is very important as is disruption and mana effeciency. Cube has a ton of competition for 3+ mana spells, that some "less powerful" 1-2 mana spells come at a premium.
A low curve, lower powered deck with proper disruption, would beat a slow deck with a high mana curve that has more powerful cards (within reason).
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I agree that there's no room for Mesmeric Fiend in a 360, but at the largest cube size I think 1 mesmeric fiend variant is a fine inclusion. They can absolutely destroy a gameplan.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
No.
YOUR cube is a format, my cube is a format, MTGO cube is a format. Acknowledgement of the variation that exists within formats and how the efficacy of a card is contingent upon those variations is essential.
There's some cards that are fairly static in power dependent on the cube composition, some vary wildly. Tidehollow sculler's power varies wildly.
In a full-on combo cube tidehollow sculler would be excellent and anguished unmaking would be close to unplayable.
In my cube format, which isn't that far off of a lot of peoples here. I'm 100% sure that for the decks that actively want a sculler effect, tidehollow sculler is reasonably close in power to anguished unmaking. The lack of good hand disruption options AND plethora of removal spells in BW make it a more desired effect to build a 3-0 deck.. You will likely get 1-2 expensive universal removal spells anyway, and that's all you want. Ideally you want at least 3 early curve hand disruption spells.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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Sure, but there's a lot of PERMANENT discard at just B. I'm saying I don't think I'd play Mez Fiend even if it was a 2/2 like the Sculler here.
We are on the cube forums, it is silly to discuss cards in context of other formats like legacy or modern, or expect other users to. And even though our cubes are different like all cubes there, there are general principles and concepts that have to be true if we're going to have a general cube discussion. Saying "this is a good/bad cube card" needs to mean something without adding a million caveats. And even in a combo cube there's no way I run sculler of anguished unmaking, as the instant speed aspect of that Anguished Unmaking is certainly going to have an effect against combo decks along with being that great against so many other decks. (EDIT: I misinterpreted your comment, I thought you meant a cube that features combo--yes, in an all combo cube then tide hollow sculler would be better. However since that is not a cube I really consider when evaluating card power and not one I think most people would, anguished unmaking is generally a lot better as hard removal>>>>temporary discard.)
Acknowledging the variations between formats is big, but even bigger is acknowledging the similarities in order to have general discussions that are all inclusive. Adding a caveat like "in my such and such cube this is how it performs" is certainly helpful, but when someone else says "this card is bad and I don't like it", I'm not going to question whether he believes it's bad in every possible of iteration of cube out there--I'm going to understand it's a personal experience he had with his cube, take that for what it is, and use his response + the sum of all the other opinions and draw my own conclusions for my own group.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
The permanent discard really drops off the bigger your cube list gets, and I've found that Mez Fiend is pretty fine in the 720/1080 variants. Plus it's a creature so there's some benefit to it there (along with the negatives, of course.)
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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Sorry for the condescending tone in my post, I took some adderall this morning and it brings that out in me.
I like bringing other formats into the discussion (within reason) as it's interesting to identify WHY a card is good in some formats and not others. Sometimes the factors that make card A good in it's standard format, but bad in modern; are the same factors why it's good in a large unpowered cube and bad in a tight powered cube.
When I see blanket statements like card A is WAY better than card B, if those cards value are highly context specific, discussing nuances of a format become important.
But yeah, I agree with you, if someone says "Card A is > Card B" without context, we can assume he's implying it's about his cube... Which is ok... It's when disagreements occur, that people can end up talking past each other. Asmallcat appeared to replying to my post above his with his comment saying there's "No way tidehollow sculler is = to anguished unmaking". A pointless discussion if I'm only referring to my cube, and he's referring only to his.
Last Updated 02/07/24
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I would snap off that card so hard haha. Zombie synergies, disruption vs combo, enough power to beat down and a blocker vs agro (strip their removal spell, block 2/2's).
Not in the realm of unprintable either... Unlikely for sure, but not impossible.
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Nekrataal
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Cheers,
rant
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This has been my issue too. With all the kill spells and 187 bodies, I tend to lean towards cheaper/easier to splash variants (shriek maw, bone shredder) or the more unique ones. (Skin Render and...well I guess just Skin Render?) Not that Nekrataal is bad, it just has played out as the worst/hardest to cast of the options.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Flavorwise, I think that WoTC made a mistake by changing Nekrataal into a Human. From the original art and flavor text, you know this was supposed to be something far more horrifying than a mere homo sapien. A real opportunity was lost to make an entire tribe of murderous nekrataals, each one with a different hat and targeting restriction. I'm tempted run the original for the old frame and that sweet flavor text, but I'm a stickler for Oracle text on the cards in my cube so I run the 9th edition, and in foil so it still has a black border. I'll let my Nekrataal be a Human Assassin, but no way do I ever run any version where he doesn't wear the electric purple turban!
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I also agree, I always thought he was a zombie because of the "Nekra" in his name, but Wahtzee apparently had other things in mind.
Nostalgia goggles aside, I still think he's a staple even with Kalitas being around. The range of things that Nekrataal can kill that Skinrender can't is quite large. First strike is huge as tokens become more popular, and he's a 187 creature that fits into the 2-power or less family (Reveilark / Imperial Recruiter / Alesha).
His only true downside is that he can't hit black / artifact creatures, so he could be a dud in certain matchups.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
In my cube he's stuck so far. Eventually Wizards will print another 187 creature in black, maybe even a 2/2 for a similar cost and Nekrataal will make his way out, but today is not that day.
At least with the always superior new invitational illustrations, I understand why veterans want to keep the tribute to the winner intact. But stuff like this just baffles me. If you showed both of these pieces to someone who had never seen either one and asked them which one they preferred, you'd get Moeller's piece 99/100 I'll wager. But that's not much like the ratio in the cube community.