Dude, I had a bunch of those. There was a Gorilla Alien one that was a transparent blue color that I had, and it was sweet. I also had the big brown T-Rex that had the cool roar sound it made when you squeezed it.
I've never run Top, because opinions on it around here seem to be kind of meh, so I never bothered prioritizing trading for or buying one. In Channel Fireball MTGO videos, LSV has often said that Top just isn't good enough in most cube decks. To the people who've run it, would you say it's better or worse than Scroll Rack on power level?
My older brother got me into role playing games at a really young age, so while I had Matchbox cars, Star Wars figures (including the Yoda hand puppet!), Legos, GI Joes and more, I was a lot more excited about my D & D and Champions (superhero RPG) characters than I'd ever been about toys.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
LSV hates Top, yes, but he also hates Tangle Wire, and that's just dumb.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Well, LSV is pretty heavily biased towards control so it's no surprise that he hates Tangle Wire. If he hates Top in the control decks he likes, I'm inclined to give that more credence. However, I've never run or played Top so I'm asking those of you who run it if LSV's on to something or out to lunch here.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Playable in artifact matters decks, trinket mage target, cheap tezzeret target, cheap fodder for tinker.
Combo's extremly well with monastery mentor.
Nice with miracles to know when your entreat the angels/terminus is coming up to plan for it. Or to activate it at instant speed.
It's also a unique iconic card.. Dont think I'd ever cut it.
LSV is flat out wrong that it is mostly unplayable, but it's definitely a card I convince other people to cut from their decks more than almost any other.
I'm asking those of you who run it if LSV's on to something or out to lunch here.
Both. It's highly overrated, and it's not a good card to just toss in any deck. But it's far from unplayable in decks that it can shine in. He's probably more right than wrong, considering that his audience and context are random MTGO cube players, not veteran cube managers. So in most of the instances he sees it played in, it's not good, because the randoms online are misusing the card and/or adding it to the wrong decks. So his experience with it in cube is probably accurate, and his advice is mostly good. I would also advise newer cube players not to use it, and remind folks pretty regularly that it's not a card that can just get tossed into anything.
We don't run Top in cube. Our experience was that Top was quite niche in a cube environment. It's awesome in Legacy of course. The main issue we had with it was inexperienced players didn't TRULY understand it's power and often sided the card in when they really couldn't take advantage of it or their deck just didn't need it.
GI Joe for me. I still own a ton of 3 3/4 inch figures, and have every issue from the Marvel comic run. No other toy comes remotely close
Playable in artifact matters decks, trinket mage target, cheap tezzeret target, cheap fodder for tinker.
Combo's extremly well with monastery mentor.
Nice with miracles to know when your entreat the angels/terminus is coming up to plan for it.
This sounds a bit narrow. My cube is unpowered, so the artifact deck isn't really a thing for me - I run Tinker and a bunch of mana rocks but I don't run the Tezzerets, Goblin Welder, Bosh, etc. I also don't run Miracles or any of the other cards mentioned here besides Monastery Mentor. Is it safe to say that Top probably wouldn't be all that good in my cube?
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Cursed Scroll was cut a short while ago. I thought it was awesome during the early years of my cube, but creatures got better and the format got overall faster. While it still saw play occasionally, it got taken later and later and spent most of its time in sideboards. It often suffered from the 25th card syndrome in aggro decks: It wasn't bad, but 24 cards were just better.
Sensei's Divining Top was cut last year or so. It is fine if you run a bunch of shuffle effects, but it is pretty bad if you have none. And you have never as many shuffle effects as you have in constructed, so the card also felt kind of a trap. Lastly, using Top and Scroll Rack (which I cut together with Top) really slowed the game down. The problem isn't using them once or twice. The problem comes from using them every single turn over the course of a longer game. Even if a single activation doesn't take that long, it can really add up.
Azorius Chancery and all the other Ravnica bouncelands where in my original cube. I build it shortly before Dissension came out, so it was leaning heavily on the original Ravnica block (new card syndrome). It also took me a while to decide on the right cycles of dual lands and to acquire those. The bouncelands where the first cycle that I cut entirely. While there where some cards that interacted nicely with them (like Weathered Wayfarer), I had much more targeted land destruction in my old list than I run now. Most drafters decided that running bouncelands was too much of risk and shied away from them.
...
While the Reserved List is terrible for the game of Magic, removing it will probably be worse than just keeping it if you consider Magic as a whole product. Wizards made that decision and it is a good thing that they stand by it. However, the 2010 revision of the reserved list policy was absolutely terrible and one of the worst (if not the worst) decisions that Wizards ever made. Until that year, they were allowed to reprint reserved list cards as foil promos. Either in special limited product (see Karn, Silver Golem and Mox Diamond from the From the Vault sets) or as promo cards that weren't sold directly (Judge Promos like Deranged Hermit or Wheel of Fortune). This was a fine way to carefully add new copies of reserved cards to the market. Removing this option hurt the game - and especially formats like Legacy - immensely. Terrible, terrible decision.
My favorite toys were probably LEGOs. I liked all the creative things I could build with them. LEGOs are like the cube among toys: Before playing with them, you went trough your collection and had fun drafting your deck with them. I mean constructing stuff with them.
Favorite limited formats where Rise of the Eldrazi, the original Innistrad and Time Spiral block, probably in this order. Original Ravnica block was also cool. Apart from green being noticeably weeker than the other colors, I also liked triple Battle for Zendikar. Triple Champions of Kamigawa was also a good draft format. Kaladesh looked really good, but it may be too fast to actually allow the fun that it promises at first glance. I need a few more drafts to decide if that is really true, but I was pretty disappointed when I realized how fast it could be.
In general, I think the bounce lands are decent, but we've just gotten too many better fixing options since their initial printing. That's true even for peasant lists now. They were in my cube initially, but were eventually cut back to only the blue ones and now aren't there at all. They can be great at guaranteeing land drops, but they are a bit of a tempo loss and getting one bounced or blown up is a giant feel bad. I'm not even sure the non blue ones would even make a top ten fixing lands per guild for me anymore.
My favorite draft format of all time is LRW-LRW-LRW. I came back to the game after a couple year hiatus just after Time Spiral released. I played some TSP block limited and enjoyed it, but by the time Lorwyn released, I had found my groove playing limited. I really enjoyed the interactions and being able to draft a coherent Merfolk or Treefolk deck, rather than just a pile of limited good stuff. Second to Lorwyn would be original Innistrad, where again, you could draft an archetype (Spider Spawning ftw!). I haven't played much limited since then. I've gotten out of almost every other MTG format outside of cube.
I ran the bouncelands for a short while, but have replaced them with the painlands. I've thought about running Fastbond before, and if I do that, I'll probably include Simic Growth Chamber and Gruul Turf or something as minor support.
I hate the reserved list. I don't want unlimited reprints or anything, but 1) some of the list makes no sense and 2) it's a significant barrier to entry for Legacy and optimized cube lands. If I want to include duals, my options are to pay something like $1300 for a beat up, white bordered set, or to pay $600 for Collector's Editions that I can't play anywhere else. I've held off on buying enemy fetches because some day they'll be reprinted, and then I'll spend $100 and be good on those for life. There's no hope of that with anything on the reserved list. Basically it means that my cube will never have duals. And there's plenty of other cool stuff on the list, too, that I'll likely never get because of cost. And that's dumb to me.
As far as retail draft, I've not done much of it. I drafted MM2015 a few times and Magic Origins a few times, but most of my FNMs are Modern, if anything. With a newborn, it's hard to find time these days, now that I'm actually interested in it.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I think the Ravnica bounce lands are great budget / modern only options for blue guilds. For a traditional cube though I think they're too slow, especially against land destruction.
I really liked Theros limited, I loved the Voltron aspect of the format. My submission for MTGO's You Make the Cube contest was based on Theros limited, I called it "The Power Up Cube."
They're alright fixing if you need it. I still run them in my ~450 cube, but they'd probably be the ones cut next if I were to acquire the rest of the ABUR duals.
I like the bouncelands, and I think for cubes that don't care about C, the blue ones can compete in the #5 through #7 slot for their respective guilds.
I think the bouncelands are fine but I don't currently run them. If I did, I'd probably just run the Blue ones (kind of like the Signets).
Invasion-Planeshift-Apocalypse (aka IPA, also a great type of beer) is my favorite draft format. After the steaming pile of crap that was Masques Limited, players needed something better. It was always a blast to draft, and I remember beating one player who had a pair of Phyrexian Scutas and a Spiritmonger. He'd blitzed thru everyone until he played me and my suite of kill spells, highlighted by three Terminates. It was an excellent three-game match.
Bouncelands were great but non-Peasant/Pauper cubes have better options these days.
I think triple Lorwyn was my favorite draft format, but I loved all iterations of original Rav block (Rav/Rav/Rav; Rav/Rav/GPT; Rav/GPT/Dis). And wtwlf and Dr. Tom brought up two other excellent formats.
Taking Azorius as an example, there's the obvious ABU, Shock, Fetch, Man Land for 1-4. Number five is a bit of a toss up. It could go to Adarkar Wastes if you support colorless, but if you don't, there's several other options that could make the cut in that slot and not be embarrassing. Prairie Stream for the dual land factor, Flood Plain for the extra fetch land, Azorius Chancery or even Temple of Enlightenment. So it could be the number five land if you really wanted it to be, but there's other options that could fit into that slot too, none of which seem much better or worse than the other.
Ah, yeah. You make a good point. I suppose I misspoke in reference to peasant. There are a bunch of ETBT dual lands now, though, so it's really personal preference. If you just don't like the bounce lands for some reason, you could easily find four cycles of ETBT duals to fill those fixing slots.
I ran the bounce lands very early on in my cube as budget fixing, and after seeing them get hit by Avalanche Riders, Pillage, and Flickerwisp a few times I couldn't wait to replace them with something else. Any form of disruption on them turns that virtual card advantage they provide into a serious liability. Part of the reason they've been so good in the retail limited formats they've been in is that there WotC has been printing a lot less and worse land disruption options in Standard legal sets. In cube, we run the best versions of these effects, and the bounce lands are really juicy targets for them. For my Peasant cube I think they are better than something like Azorius Guildgate, but I still consider them a necessary evil, and I hope they come out with something new at C/U that can replace them. I'm with ravnic that the John Avon art's really sweet on all of them, and apparently WotC agrees because for all the times they've reprinted these, they've never changed the art on them.
I'm a certified retail limited junkie. Booster drafts in Tempest block was the format that really got more excited about the game than anything else prior. There may be a lot of the luck of the draw involved, but you're never losing due to being outspent, and that's always left a bad taste in my mouth when it's come to Constructed Magic. After the abomination that was Mercadian Masques limited, I took a break, then moved to Korea where I didn't get back into Magic and limited until Gatecrash, so I've missed out on some of the sweet draft formats other people are talking about here. I especially wish I could have tried Time Spiral drafts, but out of the formats I have played I'd have to say the best was triple Khans of Tarkir. There were a lot of really interesting mechanics, and the quality of mana fixing available made it possible to go really deep on a lot of deck types. Plus, the possibility of drafting a fetch made opening each pack extra exciting.
I run a couple bounce lands, rw, gu, and I believe bg. They are nice to have for splashing or supporting low mana curve decks that run 16 lands. I will probably replace them as I continue upgrading my premature cube list. I do like bouncing my scry lands for added value.
I would love to see the reserved list go away, but I am sure I could still not afford all the cards I want to acquire even at a reduced price. It is mostly for the updated art, frame, and general 'holy crap' mentality of pulling an epic card from packs.
Favourite recent draft set would be triple Khans. I really liked morph and three color decks in that set.
I had them for many years, but I replaced them the Temple Scrylands and never looked back. Getting destroyed by land destruction and/or getting bounce land as your only land card in your hand - feels bad.
My favorite limited format has to be Shadowmoor-Shadowmoor-Eventide. The format is much deeper than the masses think...
He is good, but I don't find him as great as I thought he was when he came out. I guess getting both Hero of Oxid Ridge and Hellrider means that he is less special and has some serious competition now. We also got a super powerful 4-mana Chandra now, giving him another nudge down the ladder.
...
When the MTGO cube premiered, monored got totally overhyped. In my cube, you can draft monored aggro, but I don't think it would be better than adding a second color to a red aggro deck. As a consequence, monored aggro decks happen very rarely in my cube. Less than once out of ten drafts, I would say.
Back to the limited draft formats: I wish that I would have drafted triple Shadowmoor more often, because that format looked really interesting. Forcing a monocolor deck seemed like a fun and viable strategy. Triple Zendikar on the other hand looked good at first, but quickly turned out to be waaaaaay too fast. I consider it to be one of the few "broken" limited formats that Wizards made since designing sets with limited in mind.
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My older brother got me into role playing games at a really young age, so while I had Matchbox cars, Star Wars figures (including the Yoda hand puppet!), Legos, GI Joes and more, I was a lot more excited about my D & D and Champions (superhero RPG) characters than I'd ever been about toys.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Playable in artifact matters decks, trinket mage target, cheap tezzeret target, cheap fodder for tinker.
Combo's extremly well with monastery mentor.
Nice with miracles to know when your entreat the angels/terminus is coming up to plan for it. Or to activate it at instant speed.
It's also a unique iconic card.. Dont think I'd ever cut it.
LSV is flat out wrong that it is mostly unplayable, but it's definitely a card I convince other people to cut from their decks more than almost any other.
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Both. It's highly overrated, and it's not a good card to just toss in any deck. But it's far from unplayable in decks that it can shine in. He's probably more right than wrong, considering that his audience and context are random MTGO cube players, not veteran cube managers. So in most of the instances he sees it played in, it's not good, because the randoms online are misusing the card and/or adding it to the wrong decks. So his experience with it in cube is probably accurate, and his advice is mostly good. I would also advise newer cube players not to use it, and remind folks pretty regularly that it's not a card that can just get tossed into anything.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
GI Joe for me. I still own a ton of 3 3/4 inch figures, and have every issue from the Marvel comic run. No other toy comes remotely close
This sounds a bit narrow. My cube is unpowered, so the artifact deck isn't really a thing for me - I run Tinker and a bunch of mana rocks but I don't run the Tezzerets, Goblin Welder, Bosh, etc. I also don't run Miracles or any of the other cards mentioned here besides Monastery Mentor. Is it safe to say that Top probably wouldn't be all that good in my cube?
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Golgari Rot Farm and the rest of the original Ravnica block bounce lands
BONUS QUESTION
What's your favorite retail limited format of all time?
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Sensei's Divining Top was cut last year or so. It is fine if you run a bunch of shuffle effects, but it is pretty bad if you have none. And you have never as many shuffle effects as you have in constructed, so the card also felt kind of a trap. Lastly, using Top and Scroll Rack (which I cut together with Top) really slowed the game down. The problem isn't using them once or twice. The problem comes from using them every single turn over the course of a longer game. Even if a single activation doesn't take that long, it can really add up.
Azorius Chancery and all the other Ravnica bouncelands where in my original cube. I build it shortly before Dissension came out, so it was leaning heavily on the original Ravnica block (new card syndrome). It also took me a while to decide on the right cycles of dual lands and to acquire those. The bouncelands where the first cycle that I cut entirely. While there where some cards that interacted nicely with them (like Weathered Wayfarer), I had much more targeted land destruction in my old list than I run now. Most drafters decided that running bouncelands was too much of risk and shied away from them.
...
While the Reserved List is terrible for the game of Magic, removing it will probably be worse than just keeping it if you consider Magic as a whole product. Wizards made that decision and it is a good thing that they stand by it. However, the 2010 revision of the reserved list policy was absolutely terrible and one of the worst (if not the worst) decisions that Wizards ever made. Until that year, they were allowed to reprint reserved list cards as foil promos. Either in special limited product (see Karn, Silver Golem and Mox Diamond from the From the Vault sets) or as promo cards that weren't sold directly (Judge Promos like Deranged Hermit or Wheel of Fortune). This was a fine way to carefully add new copies of reserved cards to the market. Removing this option hurt the game - and especially formats like Legacy - immensely. Terrible, terrible decision.
My favorite toys were probably LEGOs. I liked all the creative things I could build with them. LEGOs are like the cube among toys: Before playing with them, you went trough your collection and had fun drafting your deck with them. I mean constructing stuff with them.
Favorite limited formats where Rise of the Eldrazi, the original Innistrad and Time Spiral block, probably in this order. Original Ravnica block was also cool. Apart from green being noticeably weeker than the other colors, I also liked triple Battle for Zendikar. Triple Champions of Kamigawa was also a good draft format. Kaladesh looked really good, but it may be too fast to actually allow the fun that it promises at first glance. I need a few more drafts to decide if that is really true, but I was pretty disappointed when I realized how fast it could be.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
My favorite draft format of all time is LRW-LRW-LRW. I came back to the game after a couple year hiatus just after Time Spiral released. I played some TSP block limited and enjoyed it, but by the time Lorwyn released, I had found my groove playing limited. I really enjoyed the interactions and being able to draft a coherent Merfolk or Treefolk deck, rather than just a pile of limited good stuff. Second to Lorwyn would be original Innistrad, where again, you could draft an archetype (Spider Spawning ftw!). I haven't played much limited since then. I've gotten out of almost every other MTG format outside of cube.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I hate the reserved list. I don't want unlimited reprints or anything, but 1) some of the list makes no sense and 2) it's a significant barrier to entry for Legacy and optimized cube lands. If I want to include duals, my options are to pay something like $1300 for a beat up, white bordered set, or to pay $600 for Collector's Editions that I can't play anywhere else. I've held off on buying enemy fetches because some day they'll be reprinted, and then I'll spend $100 and be good on those for life. There's no hope of that with anything on the reserved list. Basically it means that my cube will never have duals. And there's plenty of other cool stuff on the list, too, that I'll likely never get because of cost. And that's dumb to me.
As far as retail draft, I've not done much of it. I drafted MM2015 a few times and Magic Origins a few times, but most of my FNMs are Modern, if anything. With a newborn, it's hard to find time these days, now that I'm actually interested in it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I really liked Theros limited, I loved the Voltron aspect of the format. My submission for MTGO's You Make the Cube contest was based on Theros limited, I called it "The Power Up Cube."
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Favorite limited environment has to be either original Innistrad or Eternal Masters.
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Triple ZEN is my favorite draft format.
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Invasion-Planeshift-Apocalypse (aka IPA, also a great type of beer) is my favorite draft format. After the steaming pile of crap that was Masques Limited, players needed something better. It was always a blast to draft, and I remember beating one player who had a pair of Phyrexian Scutas and a Spiritmonger. He'd blitzed thru everyone until he played me and my suite of kill spells, highlighted by three Terminates. It was an excellent three-game match.
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I think triple Lorwyn was my favorite draft format, but I loved all iterations of original Rav block (Rav/Rav/Rav; Rav/Rav/GPT; Rav/GPT/Dis). And wtwlf and Dr. Tom brought up two other excellent formats.
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Taking Azorius as an example, there's the obvious ABU, Shock, Fetch, Man Land for 1-4. Number five is a bit of a toss up. It could go to Adarkar Wastes if you support colorless, but if you don't, there's several other options that could make the cut in that slot and not be embarrassing. Prairie Stream for the dual land factor, Flood Plain for the extra fetch land, Azorius Chancery or even Temple of Enlightenment. So it could be the number five land if you really wanted it to be, but there's other options that could fit into that slot too, none of which seem much better or worse than the other.
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MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I'm a certified retail limited junkie. Booster drafts in Tempest block was the format that really got more excited about the game than anything else prior. There may be a lot of the luck of the draw involved, but you're never losing due to being outspent, and that's always left a bad taste in my mouth when it's come to Constructed Magic. After the abomination that was Mercadian Masques limited, I took a break, then moved to Korea where I didn't get back into Magic and limited until Gatecrash, so I've missed out on some of the sweet draft formats other people are talking about here. I especially wish I could have tried Time Spiral drafts, but out of the formats I have played I'd have to say the best was triple Khans of Tarkir. There were a lot of really interesting mechanics, and the quality of mana fixing available made it possible to go really deep on a lot of deck types. Plus, the possibility of drafting a fetch made opening each pack extra exciting.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I would love to see the reserved list go away, but I am sure I could still not afford all the cards I want to acquire even at a reduced price. It is mostly for the updated art, frame, and general 'holy crap' mentality of pulling an epic card from packs.
Favourite recent draft set would be triple Khans. I really liked morph and three color decks in that set.
My favorite limited format has to be Shadowmoor-Shadowmoor-Eventide. The format is much deeper than the masses think...
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BONUS QUESTION
How do you feel about playing mono-red decks in cube drafts?
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
...
When the MTGO cube premiered, monored got totally overhyped. In my cube, you can draft monored aggro, but I don't think it would be better than adding a second color to a red aggro deck. As a consequence, monored aggro decks happen very rarely in my cube. Less than once out of ten drafts, I would say.
Back to the limited draft formats: I wish that I would have drafted triple Shadowmoor more often, because that format looked really interesting. Forcing a monocolor deck seemed like a fun and viable strategy. Triple Zendikar on the other hand looked good at first, but quickly turned out to be waaaaaay too fast. I consider it to be one of the few "broken" limited formats that Wizards made since designing sets with limited in mind.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG