I know about the discussion about cutting Reveillark to make room for Gisela, the Broken Blade in the EMN testing and includes thread, so this may seem well timed, but trust me, this is just the first card the sample pack feature on Ben's cube pulled up first today that wasn't a repeat. All the same, I'm glad this card came up because it's obviously a card that people have varying opinions about and experience with, so I welcome the synchronicity.
I wish they used the originally intended artwork for it, but they decided it was "too cute" for a 4/3:
I had no idea Shinewend's art was originally intended for Reveillark! I've always loved Reveillark's art, though, I think they made the right call on that.
I love Reveillark as a card, but I've had some trouble putting together a good Reveillark deck - I just don't have a clear picture of what a well-balanced Lark deck with a respectable curve should look like. Not to say that my Lark decks have been all bad (they have a decent winrate), they just haven't been as extremely busted as some people's stories or my own experience with Lark in constructed.
While I pick Reveillark very highly, including P1P1 sometimes, you don't really need to make a "Reveillark deck" per se. As long as you have any creatures with 2 or less power in your deck, Reveillark will be good value. However, pretty much every color has creatures with ETB or death triggers that can make it so much better. The Bors value style deck is quite good, and I've played against and lost to it. I just drafted a Bant tempo deck today with Voice of Resurgence, Qasali Pridemage, Man-'o-War, Stoneforge Mystic, Sower of Temptation and more that made Reveillark a great choice as a curve topper. All the green creatures you mentioned will work great as well, not to mention all the black 187 creatures like Nekrataal.
Reveillark is good enough just as a big flier that gains extra value when it dies, or acts as a white Ever After, but with a little extra support in your cube it can be so much more. It's even splashable! It was voted 15th best white card in the latest Power Rankings, putting it ahead of any other white 5-drop aside from Gideon Jura. I can't imagine ever cutting this card from my cube.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
You know how good this card is? There was a discussion about making cards better by making them statistically worse, and most of the discussed cards revolved around 3 power creatures that would be better if they had 2 power to combo with Lark.
It's one of those cards that's not only strong, but also fun, and I rate the "fun" factor very highly.
Small confession: It's the #1 card on my list of things I need for my cube that I just haven't procured yet.
Huh, I've run lark for years and am nowhere near as high on it as most people. It's always just been a serviceable midrange guy that might get back good creatures or it might get back 2 2/1 or 2/2s. I think I'd consider avacyn baneslayer and cloud goat ranger better than it, even in midrange, but it's so narrow. In aggro I'd rather have the better beater and in control I usually only have 1 or 2 targets in my deck.
Despite being a forum favourite, it's never excelled for us. It is great value at times if you have two available targets, but it requires a degree of set-up both in deckbuilding and during play since you wouldn't even consider the body as being decent value for its cost. It also has to die (or be evoked) to get that secondary value. It's usually taken as a late-ish pick to add value to midrange or ramp decks with mana dorks or small utility creatures or which are lacking five drops. Luckily the cube is chock full of good targets, so it still tends to make the cut in our decks.
I saw someone in the Thalia prerelease thread saying that Reveillark had just about lived out it's useful Cube life. My group generally passes on it, I don't think I've seen it maindecked this year.
It also has to die (or be evoked) to get that secondary value.
It's important to note that it's a LTB trigger, so if they exile it or it gets bounced (by you or the opponent) it still triggers. It's a big factor in Reveillark's playability, so I wanted to point that out.
It also has to die (or be evoked) to get that secondary value.
It's important to note that it's a LTB trigger, so if they exile it or it gets bounced (by you or the opponent) it still triggers. It's a big factor in Reveillark's playability, so I wanted to point that out.
Yes, that's a very good point. Also very often relevant with exile removal and blink triggers as you pointed out.
I'll start by saying I think Lark is as close to uncuttable as they come. It's just a fun card with a ton of interactions. For me, it's a poster child card for why I got into cube in the first place and why I still think it's the best format (frankly, the only one I feel is worth playing).
That said, modern cubes built with power as the primary design focus might be getting to the point where synergy engines like this cost too much at 5 (start too late in the game). So I can see some people moving away from this in a really super efficient and fast cube. Even still, it probably depends a lot on your group and how they draft. Wtwlf runs one of the most powerful cubes here (and I think burn drafts it even), so in an environment with super high powered decks this card is still capable of garnering high praise. That should tell you something about the potential in this card.
One anecdote doesn't prove anything really, but tonight I was playing an aggro deck and any of my cubes other white five drops would have won my opponent the game, he played reveillark and I could just swing my dudes past it. Until it gets that leave the battlefield trigger it's just a *****ty creature. I just feel like reveillark is really slow for a five drop and while it is fun and comborific, it can fall flat on its birdnest face unless carefully built around.
That's certainly not the typical scenario with Lark. It's generally hard to swing past Reveillark since it has flying. And 4 power means it trades with a lot too.
How are people playing it? Because it certainly has combo potential, but it's also a great card in any white based creature deck. It's wrath insurance and it hits as hard as Serra Angel at a more splashable cost. Card is pretty insane. Might not go in 100% of all Wx decks, but it's damn close.
One anecdote doesn't prove anything really, but tonight I was playing an aggro deck and any of my cubes other white five drops would have won my opponent the game, he played reveillark and I could just swing my dudes past it. Until it gets that leave the battlefield trigger it's just a *****ty creature. I just feel like reveillark is really slow for a five drop and while it is fun and comborific, it can fall flat on its birdnest face unless carefully built around.
According to your cube thread, your only other white 5-drop is Baneslayer Angel, which is often much harder to rely on when you're on the back foot because it provides zero value when removed or bounced. I'll admit that when I'm behind and facing an aggro assault with exactly 5 mana I'd probably rather have Cloudgoat Ranger or Karmic Guide in hand to provide more bodies to block with, but the ceiling is far higher on Reveillark in any number of other situations.
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Ben of Cube Tutor has pimped this out with the Buy A Box promo foil on the right, but I think if I ran this card I think I'd go with a pack foil of the buff tatted vampire on the left.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I like Lark for all the reasons mentioned. I do not think I'd cut it for years to come, it is powerful enough for that. With that said, I don't like it nearly as much as many people and prefer at least 3 other white five drops over it. I think that players in my playgroup rate it higher than they should (which is also apparently lower than most groups here) due to its novelty.
Huh, I've run lark for years and am nowhere near as high on it as most people. It's always just been a serviceable midrange guy that might get back good creatures or it might get back 2 2/1 or 2/2s. I think I'd consider avacyn baneslayer and cloud goat ranger better than it, even in midrange, but it's so narrow. In aggro I'd rather have the better beater and in control I usually only have 1 or 2 targets in my deck.
I agree with this. Reveillark has an extremely high ceiling and somewhat acceptable floor (Not really though - look how much better Gisela is as a body and she costs 1 less). Sadly its average performance is much closer to the floor.
I know about the discussion about cutting Reveillark to make room for Gisela, the Broken Blade in the EMN testing and includes thread, so this may seem well timed, but trust me, this is just the first card the sample pack feature on Ben's cube pulled up first today that wasn't a repeat. All the same, I'm glad this card came up because it's obviously a card that people have varying opinions about and experience with, so I welcome the synchronicity.
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While I pick Reveillark very highly, including P1P1 sometimes, you don't really need to make a "Reveillark deck" per se. As long as you have any creatures with 2 or less power in your deck, Reveillark will be good value. However, pretty much every color has creatures with ETB or death triggers that can make it so much better. The Bors value style deck is quite good, and I've played against and lost to it. I just drafted a Bant tempo deck today with Voice of Resurgence, Qasali Pridemage, Man-'o-War, Stoneforge Mystic, Sower of Temptation and more that made Reveillark a great choice as a curve topper. All the green creatures you mentioned will work great as well, not to mention all the black 187 creatures like Nekrataal.
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It was voted 15th best white card in the latest Power Rankings, putting it ahead of any other white 5-drop aside from Gideon Jura. I can't imagine ever cutting this card from my cube.
First, I think it is absolutely fine to seed cards into this discussion, even if it is not truly "random". I think relevancy to other forum discussions and the spoiler season lead to more fruitful discussions and more participants.
About only needing two-powered or less creatures in your deck for Reveillark to shine, I disagree with that. First, there is an issue with numbers - you need to have a reasonable chance to draw enough targets in a given game, so an absolute minimum of four targets is required. Then there is the issue of quality. If you are returning Steppe Lynx (or most one drops) or a Sakura-Tribe Elder, it is cute but not powerful. Most of the 2 powered creatures in my cube are aggressive two drops and most are not very relevant at those stages of the game. A lot of the recurrable creatures are situational too - Trinket Mage after you drew your mox, Sanpcaster Mage when you have no mana up, Nekrataal or Reclamation Sage can be without a target by the time Reveillark is killed by your opponent, and he will time it this way if he can. Sure, getting a random 1/1 or 2/1 body when Lark dies is upside, but not more powerful then the competition at the five drop section.
Also there is the issue of the cards having to be in the graveyard by the time you cast/evoke Lark. Wall of Omens is a great target to fetch, but it has a significant chance to be on the battlefield by turn 5. Much more difficult is having the full two critters that meet the criteria ready in the grave. You may say that if your two power creatures live it means you are winning, but in my experience that's not the case. Example situations include when your creatures are just outclassed in combat and cannot trade, the opponent beats over them with evasion, you are facing removals that do not send to the grave (all white removals, bounce, even just walls) or you just didn't draw enough of them. In any case it means that a realistic amount of targets is both dependent on quality and at minimum six or so.
P1P1 doesn't reflect perfectly the value of the card in cube. I voted the top 20 white cards from that perspective. Reveillark is better than other white five drops as a first pick, barring Avacyn for the benefit of doubt for now, as it is both splashable and has the highest ceiling if built around. That doesn't change the fact that it sees maindeck play in less than half the decks his (her?) fellows do.
I like my black 1 drops to be extremely aggressive. While I love repeatable effects and good activated abilities, I think he requires too much of an investment.
He's a bit better in practice than in theory, but that's still not that great for must cubes. It's probably because I've really only played with/against him in the MTGO legacy cubes where the aggro decks are less frequent/good due to the general neutering of that archetype, but he was pretty alright there. Not that aggro decks don't exist in that cube, but they are a bit slower than most aggro decks you'd see and therefore Guul Draz Assassin often has time to level up against those decks and make a difference. He's also pretty good against midrange decks too since whatever doesn't kill the creature usually brings it down to a favorable body to kill. It's not an embarrassing card to run by any means, but you can def do better.
I definitely prefer the pack art. While the card sits in my trade binder. It was too slow and mana intensive to be worthwhile in the cube, in our experiences with it.
I never really got the appeal with this card. He's not up to par as an aggro beater, clearly, since you require a long time or large investment to get to a 2/2 status. Either one fewer level required to get 2 power, or a slightly cheaper level cost like Student of Warfare, would have gone a long way. It could have a niche as a control deck early play rather like Enclave Cryptologist, but it's not interesting enough for the slot IMO.
I am wary of how tested a Cube is when I see this card because it is interesting on paper but horrendous in terms of how it actually plays out in 2016 Cube. I Cubed this guy in 2011 and wasn't happy with him then when we had half the number of strong options.
I am wary of how tested a Cube is when I see this card because it is interesting on paper but horrendous in terms of how it actually plays out in 2016 Cube. I Cubed this guy in 2011 and wasn't happy with him then when we had half the number of strong options.
I mean, the literal most-tested/drafted cube of all time ran it in multiple iterations, so perhaps it isn't the testing that you need to be wary about.
I am wary of how tested a Cube is when I see this card because it is interesting on paper but horrendous in terms of how it actually plays out in 2016 Cube. I Cubed this guy in 2011 and wasn't happy with him then when we had half the number of strong options.
I mean, the literal most-tested/drafted cube of all time ran it in multiple iterations, so perhaps it isn't the testing that you need to be wary about.
Testing means playing games of Magic with Cube cards. That's basically my point... I included Guul Draz before I was able to physically Cube a lot, but when we started playing a lot of Cube games it became clear as day that the card wasn't nearly good enough. It looks alright on paper (or computer screen), and it never performs anywhere near how you think it should in actual games. For what it's worth the CubeTutor720 does not run the card, and that is probably the most-drafted "Cube" (if you can call it that) on the site (but Brain Maggot... Seriously?).
Since this card is pretty much always going to be part of a dedicated Storm archetype, let's make this a discussion of Storm as an archetype as well as any other Storm finishers.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I know about the discussion about cutting Reveillark to make room for Gisela, the Broken Blade in the EMN testing and includes thread, so this may seem well timed, but trust me, this is just the first card the sample pack feature on Ben's cube pulled up first today that wasn't a repeat. All the same, I'm glad this card came up because it's obviously a card that people have varying opinions about and experience with, so I welcome the synchronicity.
I had no idea Shinewend's art was originally intended for Reveillark! I've always loved Reveillark's art, though, I think they made the right call on that.
While I pick Reveillark very highly, including P1P1 sometimes, you don't really need to make a "Reveillark deck" per se. As long as you have any creatures with 2 or less power in your deck, Reveillark will be good value. However, pretty much every color has creatures with ETB or death triggers that can make it so much better. The Bors value style deck is quite good, and I've played against and lost to it. I just drafted a Bant tempo deck today with Voice of Resurgence, Qasali Pridemage, Man-'o-War, Stoneforge Mystic, Sower of Temptation and more that made Reveillark a great choice as a curve topper. All the green creatures you mentioned will work great as well, not to mention all the black 187 creatures like Nekrataal.
However, the true Reveillark deck is one that can go infinite with Karmic Guide and a 0: activation sac outlet like Goblin Bombardment, Mirror Entity, Falkenrath Aristocrat, or Blasting Station. Even if the sac outlet you use doesn't kill your opponent you could use a value creature like Acidic Slime to blow up all of their land, or Venser, Shaper Savant to send all of their permanents back to their hand, or Triskelion counters to deal infinite damage for you.
Reveillark is good enough just as a big flier that gains extra value when it dies, or acts as a white Ever After, but with a little extra support in your cube it can be so much more. It's even splashable! It was voted 15th best white card in the latest Power Rankings, putting it ahead of any other white 5-drop aside from Gideon Jura. I can't imagine ever cutting this card from my cube.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
It's one of those cards that's not only strong, but also fun, and I rate the "fun" factor very highly.
Small confession: It's the #1 card on my list of things I need for my cube that I just haven't procured yet.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
It's important to note that it's a LTB trigger, so if they exile it or it gets bounced (by you or the opponent) it still triggers. It's a big factor in Reveillark's playability, so I wanted to point that out.
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Yes, that's a very good point. Also very often relevant with exile removal and blink triggers as you pointed out.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
One year later, when I started building my cube, I decided to try Reveillark because "it is so shiny and it looks like fun".
Needless to say, that card stayed in my cube since then, and from 2008 until this day, that card bring fond memories to my heart...
Everything from the artwork to the possibilities it makes just make it a masterpiece of a card!
That said, modern cubes built with power as the primary design focus might be getting to the point where synergy engines like this cost too much at 5 (start too late in the game). So I can see some people moving away from this in a really super efficient and fast cube. Even still, it probably depends a lot on your group and how they draft. Wtwlf runs one of the most powerful cubes here (and I think burn drafts it even), so in an environment with super high powered decks this card is still capable of garnering high praise. That should tell you something about the potential in this card.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
How are people playing it? Because it certainly has combo potential, but it's also a great card in any white based creature deck. It's wrath insurance and it hits as hard as Serra Angel at a more splashable cost. Card is pretty insane. Might not go in 100% of all Wx decks, but it's damn close.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
According to your cube thread, your only other white 5-drop is Baneslayer Angel, which is often much harder to rely on when you're on the back foot because it provides zero value when removed or bounced. I'll admit that when I'm behind and facing an aggro assault with exactly 5 mana I'd probably rather have Cloudgoat Ranger or Karmic Guide in hand to provide more bodies to block with, but the ceiling is far higher on Reveillark in any number of other situations.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Guul Draz Assassin
Ben of Cube Tutor has pimped this out with the Buy A Box promo foil on the right, but I think if I ran this card I think I'd go with a pack foil of the buff tatted vampire on the left.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I agree with this. Reveillark has an extremely high ceiling and somewhat acceptable floor (Not really though - look how much better Gisela is as a body and she costs 1 less). Sadly its average performance is much closer to the floor.
First, I think it is absolutely fine to seed cards into this discussion, even if it is not truly "random". I think relevancy to other forum discussions and the spoiler season lead to more fruitful discussions and more participants.
About only needing two-powered or less creatures in your deck for Reveillark to shine, I disagree with that. First, there is an issue with numbers - you need to have a reasonable chance to draw enough targets in a given game, so an absolute minimum of four targets is required. Then there is the issue of quality. If you are returning Steppe Lynx (or most one drops) or a Sakura-Tribe Elder, it is cute but not powerful. Most of the 2 powered creatures in my cube are aggressive two drops and most are not very relevant at those stages of the game. A lot of the recurrable creatures are situational too - Trinket Mage after you drew your mox, Sanpcaster Mage when you have no mana up, Nekrataal or Reclamation Sage can be without a target by the time Reveillark is killed by your opponent, and he will time it this way if he can. Sure, getting a random 1/1 or 2/1 body when Lark dies is upside, but not more powerful then the competition at the five drop section.
Also there is the issue of the cards having to be in the graveyard by the time you cast/evoke Lark. Wall of Omens is a great target to fetch, but it has a significant chance to be on the battlefield by turn 5. Much more difficult is having the full two critters that meet the criteria ready in the grave. You may say that if your two power creatures live it means you are winning, but in my experience that's not the case. Example situations include when your creatures are just outclassed in combat and cannot trade, the opponent beats over them with evasion, you are facing removals that do not send to the grave (all white removals, bounce, even just walls) or you just didn't draw enough of them. In any case it means that a realistic amount of targets is both dependent on quality and at minimum six or so.
P1P1 doesn't reflect perfectly the value of the card in cube. I voted the top 20 white cards from that perspective. Reveillark is better than other white five drops as a first pick, barring Avacyn for the benefit of doubt for now, as it is both splashable and has the highest ceiling if built around. That doesn't change the fact that it sees maindeck play in less than half the decks his (her?) fellows do.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I mean, the literal most-tested/drafted cube of all time ran it in multiple iterations, so perhaps it isn't the testing that you need to be wary about.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Testing means playing games of Magic with Cube cards. That's basically my point... I included Guul Draz before I was able to physically Cube a lot, but when we started playing a lot of Cube games it became clear as day that the card wasn't nearly good enough. It looks alright on paper (or computer screen), and it never performs anywhere near how you think it should in actual games. For what it's worth the CubeTutor720 does not run the card, and that is probably the most-drafted "Cube" (if you can call it that) on the site (but Brain Maggot... Seriously?).
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Brain Freeze
Since this card is pretty much always going to be part of a dedicated Storm archetype, let's make this a discussion of Storm as an archetype as well as any other Storm finishers.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979