It is generally said that a good planeswalker needs to cost less then five mana, be able to protect itself and generate card advantage. Nissa hits most of these:
Costs less than five mana? Double check! (she costs two less than five)
Protects herself? Double check! (she creates tokens with a plus ability)
Generates card advantage? Not really. (creating tokens is kinda card advantages, but they are only 0/1s)
The problem with her is that she really doesn't build up to anything much. I think I'd only want her in Stax or tokens, but even then I think shes not that great either.
She builds up to an army of tokens that she can then pump herself (or have them pumped by other cards). She can also build up to her ultimate and draw a bunch of cards.
Individually, her abilities might be weak, but they work well together and she only costs 3 mana.
I'm just not sure what deck wants this. The 0/1 tokens can gum up the ground on defense, but the anthem effect seems out of place on the card. I'm not sure if I have a single deck that's interested in both of her abilities. My midrange decks don't want 0/1s and my creatures already outclass my opponents. Aggro doesn't want the plant bodies, and green control doesn't want the anthems. Midrange decks would rather just play a ramp spell, and aggro would rather play another body or a more consistent Anthem effect that does a better job at buffing all my creatures over the course of the game. I don't think this card has a home.
She is nothing phenomenal, but she is a solid card if those archetypes are things you want to focus on. Seems to me that people have really high expectations from walkers these days that they have to do something crazy rather than just all around good for the premium paid. Her abilities for 3 mana are pretty solid.
Yes, as time goes on, expectations get higher. This is not being spoiled, this is reflective of the competition being stiffer the more cards that get released.
All-around good is fine, if the average of an all-around good card can compete with it's competition. Nissa can't. That's what's being argued.
I would argue that she is all around better than many other common includes that fit into Cube. Feldon being one of them, Magus of the Wheel being another recent one.
Sure, there may be something to say about 3 CMC slots and color, but honestly, I do not think green three drops are good enough to exclude Nissa. Many people run Awakening Zone, and I think she is much better than that card - as there are enough other ways to ramp and optimize curves to include Nissa without losing anything at all.
I'll be cutting Awakening Zone, which has been performing pretty solidly. I think she falls around the 40th percentile of power for our green three drops, enough to stay in for a while unless she underperforms. You can get her out early enough to get at least a card's worth of value vs aggro or control decks, although she seems less well positioned vs midrange and ramp.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
In terms of 3 drops, the only two that I conaider close to the chomping block are Wolfir Avenger / Troll Ascetic, which I can definitely see Nissa replacing one of them, but I do like the roles that fulfill. Aggro and control don't really want this, and midrange decks would probably rather play something else. I think her only home is in tokens, and that makes it too narrow for my liking. I could be wrong though, but I'm not too optimistic.
Oh man I wish her first ability added G to your mana pool in addition to making a plant. That being said I think she is decent and will probably test her out.
I probably have too many green 3 drops already, but I could actually see dropping Troll and/or Managorger and giving this Nissa a shot, as it does a decent Awakening Zone / Curse of Predation impression and green could use a bit of cheap token production in my environment.
This card is a bummer. I think her power level is similar to Ajani, Caller of the Pride. She can "defend" herself better but has less power... Just doesn't do very much when you compare her to other green Cube cards.
What I like:
-3CMC in green is great
-Cheap token production
-Protects herself really well for a 3 mana walker
-Repeatable anthem effect
-Dropping her on (or ahead of) curve and making tokens will really gum up the board and give you time to develop against fast decks.
-Works good with Natural Order
-You get a token the turn you play her (favorable comparison to Awakening Zone)
What I don't like:
-0/1s are the worst possible creature token out there
-Wish the +1/+1 ability was a -1 instead of a -2
-Seems durdly
-Seems basically unplayable in ramp decks
Overall I'm leaning towards... meh, but I could definitely be suffering from "over expectations" syndrome. I wish she did something that helped ramp decks.
I would argue that she is all around better than many other common includes that fit into Cube. Feldon being one of them, Magus of the Wheel being another recent one.
Sure, there may be something to say about 3 CMC slots and color, but honestly, I do not think green three drops are good enough to exclude Nissa. Many people run Awakening Zone, and I think she is much better than that card - as there are enough other ways to ramp and optimize curves to include Nissa without losing anything at all.
Feldon and Magus are at least a tier above nissa and maybe more for feldon.
Really? I can't think of a green midrange deck I've built in the cube that would actively take this over any other green card in the list. Midrange's creatures already outpace the competition, so the anthem isn't necessary, and midrange decks are the last decks that want a bunch of 0/1 tokens. Seems like the last thing I want in my midrange deck, actually. Like, what matchup does this help midrange with? It's awful against control, which is the only place midrange struggles, and it doesn't contribute to the main gameplan. Why would I want this?
Maybe a token-centric control deck? Maybe? Even then, that's a stretch. I wouldn't put this into a cube deck.
I would argue that she is all around better than many other common includes that fit into Cube. Feldon being one of them, Magus of the Wheel being another recent one.
Sure, there may be something to say about 3 CMC slots and color, but honestly, I do not think green three drops are good enough to exclude Nissa. Many people run Awakening Zone, and I think she is much better than that card - as there are enough other ways to ramp and optimize curves to include Nissa without losing anything at all.
Feldon and Magus are at least a tier above nissa and maybe more for feldon.
For a specific archetype (Feldon)? Sure. In my experience, unless artifacts or reanimator comes together, Feldon is rotting in a SB more often than not because he is not really that good anywhere else. Control does not run enough creatures to run him over a noncreature spell, and midrange decks are just doing better things. Aggro just has better aggro cards.
Magus of the wheel is nothing spectacular. He has been historically beating until he is dead more often than not, and when you do get an activation out of him, he is not really much better than a burn spell. He fits into more decks than Feldon, so I will give him that. But by virtue of being a creature, he has less of an impact in the face of removal.
Nissa is less likely to fall into SB space if a specific archetype does not come together, she is going to be good in whatever deck drafts her by virtue of being capable of doing her own thing without any real reliance on something else - as Feldon has.
She is also much more likely to create dynamic board states for strategic purposes, something that Magus of the Wheel cannot do and something Aggro can always use more of.
I would argue that they are on the same tier as Nissa, and not really above her - and that is what makes her very Cube playable.
Feldon doesn't have to go into a dedicated reanimator deck and you can just play him for value. He's a hit or miss card, but that's the nature of most archetype enabler cards. Magus is just value town, plus he's splashable.
I wouldn't let my aggro decks touch Nissa with a 10-foot pole, the GG in the mana cost is too steep since green is usually a tertiary aggro color. The -2 for the anthem effect is also too steep of a cost because you can't spam it like / give vigilance like Ajani Goldmane can.
Midrange would rather just have another ramp spell / mana dork / threat, IMO. If I wanted another planeswalker in green, I'd just re-add Garruk, Primal Hunter back into my cube.
The comparison is bad because they do completely different things. But I don't expect her relative cube value to come even remotely close to either of those cards.
Feldon and Magus are leagues better than this card. Not even in the same ballpark. Their bodies alone are more valuable than her abilities.
Would you actually include/draft/play Hurloon Minotaur over Nissa? That seems so hyperbolic that I can't tell how seriously to take the rest of your comments on her.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Feldon and Magus are leagues better than this card. Not even in the same ballpark. Their bodies alone are more valuable than her abilities.
Would you actually include/draft/play Hurloon Minotaur over Nissa? That seems so hyperbolic that I can't tell how seriously to take the rest of your comments on her.
No, I wouldn't add either of those cards into any of my cube decks. But I can absolutely see cases where a 3-mana 3/3 would be more relevant than Nissa.
Ah, I misinterpreted. Still, that doesn't seem like it tells us very much. There are cases (not super edge cases, ones that occur with some frequency in cube play) where you would rather have a Centaur Courser than an O-Ring. Cases where you would rather have a Nissa than a V Clique. You include Feldon for the value his abilities bring when in the right shell, and that's why you would include Nissa as well. The questions are: how narrow is the shell where she's good, how much better is she than other cards in those decks, and just how bad is she in more generic decks.
I think the answers are around half of green decks (in our environment), enough to take 3rd or so if you know you're in it, and good enough to still be a 20th card or so.
You think the answers are more like: very narrow, still barely good enough, unplayable.
Since she's a walker (hard to evaluate) who costs 3 (even harder) we're unlikely to get much farther until some actual play testing happens.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
If you're super deep on the green token/anthem archetype and are already running the better token makers and the better anthems, this might have a home there. But we don't play any green decks that would maindeck this card. I think it's bad in aggro, midrange, ramp, super-ramp/fatty-cheating and control. So it's pretty much out for us.
Doubt I'll have much more to say about Nissa specifically until we test her after New Year's. On a separate topic, what would you consider the "better token makers and better anthems?" Tokens is pretty well like around here, so I'm looking to add maybe 1-4 more cards of support.
Edit: In green, specifically.
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I think that evaluate the card by comparing it to a 3/3 vanilla creature is just simply wrong. In fact, it seems like a pretty bad process. I do understand the point though and I know that you didn't really want to bring it the way it is being interpet right now. But facts are there, you stated it. I mean, no offense, I can see want what you were trying to explain and I respect it. But it just sounds so wrong to me. In some cases, depending on board state and stuff, a simple creature could be better, I understand that. But we could say that same thing on a lot of cards, and particulary on planeswalkers. Ajani Goldmane could look pretty bad in the same scenarios, in which you're seeking for a board presence or a way to defend yourself. We are on the same boat with Sarkhan Vol and Venser, the Sojourner.
I also understand the point about the lack of synergy. At first glance, it looks like this new Nissa doesn't really has a true home. Maybe in Stax-Pox or tokens strategies, like others have already mentionned. But I think that may be not the point. I think this Nissa is the type of card that is just simply good by its own. It doesn't need any special stuff to be able to become effective. She protect herself. She provides pseudo anthem effect. She brings card advantage. Combine ir with a turn 1 mana dork, and she become real bummer. And for those reasons, I think that your opponent must respect it and ultimately find a solution to take care of her when she's cast early. And I think that makes it a interesting card for cube. WCS, you end up having a at least fine card for some grindy midrange decks in larger lists.
The only problem that I have with it is that she has a double green mana cost. With a 2G cost, I think it could have been a very strong card. People who were still running Awakening Zone or Curse of Predation would have find a solid replacement for it. And if she did was print in order to produce 1/1 tokens, she'd have been busted IMO. I'd say that WotC won't ever make that mistake, but ever may be a strong word. We never know. But it's still pretty unlikely. Creatures on a + planeswalker's ability is strong. And it gets stronger the cheapest the planeswalker is. Fpr now, the closest thing we have is this one. And that's a decent one.
Only testing will tell how good this card is. Wihout saying that 3CC walkers are though to evaluate. They often end up being stronger than espected. For those reasons, overall, I'm optimistic and I could say that I have decent espectations.
I think this Nissa is too weak for most of the cubes around here. I don't think she's awful or anything and I can see her doing well in this slow standard format, but in a powered (or a high power level) cube she just doesn't do enough. She's bad against aggro and she's terrible against control. An advantage of walkers is that control can't always deal with their value engines once they hit the table and this Nissa hardly puts on the pressure. This needs four turns after hitting to ultimate and the only way to pump is to make 0/1's? Control could easily sit back and slowly start taking over the game while Nissa sits there. There are so many good planeswalkers right now in green that this one is just not getting in. Not terrible but not nearly good enough.
Costs less than five mana? Double check! (she costs two less than five)
Protects herself? Double check! (she creates tokens with a plus ability)
Generates card advantage? Not really. (creating tokens is kinda card advantages, but they are only 0/1s)
Almost every green midrange deck ever? Especially the grindier ones with sac/stax effects. Also, token decks want both her plus and her minus ability.
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Individually, her abilities might be weak, but they work well together and she only costs 3 mana.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Yes, as time goes on, expectations get higher. This is not being spoiled, this is reflective of the competition being stiffer the more cards that get released.
All-around good is fine, if the average of an all-around good card can compete with it's competition. Nissa can't. That's what's being argued.
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Sure, there may be something to say about 3 CMC slots and color, but honestly, I do not think green three drops are good enough to exclude Nissa. Many people run Awakening Zone, and I think she is much better than that card - as there are enough other ways to ramp and optimize curves to include Nissa without losing anything at all.
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-3CMC in green is great
-Cheap token production
-Protects herself really well for a 3 mana walker
-Repeatable anthem effect
-Dropping her on (or ahead of) curve and making tokens will really gum up the board and give you time to develop against fast decks.
-Works good with Natural Order
-You get a token the turn you play her (favorable comparison to Awakening Zone)
What I don't like:
-0/1s are the worst possible creature token out there
-Wish the +1/+1 ability was a -1 instead of a -2
-Seems durdly
-Seems basically unplayable in ramp decks
Overall I'm leaning towards... meh, but I could definitely be suffering from "over expectations" syndrome. I wish she did something that helped ramp decks.
Feldon and Magus are at least a tier above nissa and maybe more for feldon.
Really? I can't think of a green midrange deck I've built in the cube that would actively take this over any other green card in the list. Midrange's creatures already outpace the competition, so the anthem isn't necessary, and midrange decks are the last decks that want a bunch of 0/1 tokens. Seems like the last thing I want in my midrange deck, actually. Like, what matchup does this help midrange with? It's awful against control, which is the only place midrange struggles, and it doesn't contribute to the main gameplan. Why would I want this?
Maybe a token-centric control deck? Maybe? Even then, that's a stretch. I wouldn't put this into a cube deck.
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For a specific archetype (Feldon)? Sure. In my experience, unless artifacts or reanimator comes together, Feldon is rotting in a SB more often than not because he is not really that good anywhere else. Control does not run enough creatures to run him over a noncreature spell, and midrange decks are just doing better things. Aggro just has better aggro cards.
Magus of the wheel is nothing spectacular. He has been historically beating until he is dead more often than not, and when you do get an activation out of him, he is not really much better than a burn spell. He fits into more decks than Feldon, so I will give him that. But by virtue of being a creature, he has less of an impact in the face of removal.
Nissa is less likely to fall into SB space if a specific archetype does not come together, she is going to be good in whatever deck drafts her by virtue of being capable of doing her own thing without any real reliance on something else - as Feldon has.
She is also much more likely to create dynamic board states for strategic purposes, something that Magus of the Wheel cannot do and something Aggro can always use more of.
I would argue that they are on the same tier as Nissa, and not really above her - and that is what makes her very Cube playable.
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I wouldn't let my aggro decks touch Nissa with a 10-foot pole, the GG in the mana cost is too steep since green is usually a tertiary aggro color. The -2 for the anthem effect is also too steep of a cost because you can't spam it like / give vigilance like Ajani Goldmane can.
Midrange would rather just have another ramp spell / mana dork / threat, IMO. If I wanted another planeswalker in green, I'd just re-add Garruk, Primal Hunter back into my cube.
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Would you actually include/draft/play Hurloon Minotaur over Nissa? That seems so hyperbolic that I can't tell how seriously to take the rest of your comments on her.
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No, I wouldn't add either of those cards into any of my cube decks. But I can absolutely see cases where a 3-mana 3/3 would be more relevant than Nissa.
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I think the answers are around half of green decks (in our environment), enough to take 3rd or so if you know you're in it, and good enough to still be a 20th card or so.
You think the answers are more like: very narrow, still barely good enough, unplayable.
Since she's a walker (hard to evaluate) who costs 3 (even harder) we're unlikely to get much farther until some actual play testing happens.
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Edit: In green, specifically.
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I also understand the point about the lack of synergy. At first glance, it looks like this new Nissa doesn't really has a true home. Maybe in Stax-Pox or tokens strategies, like others have already mentionned. But I think that may be not the point. I think this Nissa is the type of card that is just simply good by its own. It doesn't need any special stuff to be able to become effective. She protect herself. She provides pseudo anthem effect. She brings card advantage. Combine ir with a turn 1 mana dork, and she become real bummer. And for those reasons, I think that your opponent must respect it and ultimately find a solution to take care of her when she's cast early. And I think that makes it a interesting card for cube. WCS, you end up having a at least fine card for some grindy midrange decks in larger lists.
The only problem that I have with it is that she has a double green mana cost. With a 2G cost, I think it could have been a very strong card. People who were still running Awakening Zone or Curse of Predation would have find a solid replacement for it. And if she did was print in order to produce 1/1 tokens, she'd have been busted IMO. I'd say that WotC won't ever make that mistake, but ever may be a strong word. We never know. But it's still pretty unlikely. Creatures on a + planeswalker's ability is strong. And it gets stronger the cheapest the planeswalker is. Fpr now, the closest thing we have is this one. And that's a decent one.
Only testing will tell how good this card is. Wihout saying that 3CC walkers are though to evaluate. They often end up being stronger than espected. For those reasons, overall, I'm optimistic and I could say that I have decent espectations.
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