Not sure how this is like Memory Jar other than costing a total of 5 mana. Jar lets you do way more than Wheel in that you get your entire hand back. You are not bust for cracking it with a full hand, where Wheel you need to have really expended a good chunk of your hand before you are really getting incredible value. Having an instant speed activation does not close the potential gap of playing with virtually 14 card options...
Yes, he made an analogy. It's clearly not the exact same card and there are clearly fundamental differences, but there are absolutely similarities and I see the comparison.
This is more like Memory Jar by virtue of the fact that by popping this on your opponent's end step, you get first crack at the set of new cards with all your mana untapped. That's a significant timing upgrade over the classic Wheel.
So just call it a instant Wheel effect. Call it what it is.
The difference between getting initiative and a crack at 14 card options is completely different than 7 in terms of power level. By that logic, Forbidden Alchemy is a Dig Through Time...
Sure, that's all it literally is, but when it comes to a symmetrical effect like this, you can't underestimate the power of breaking symmetry. Dictate of Karametra has seen play in some cube lists over Heartbeat of Spring simply to deny the opponent the opportunity to strike first, and this works in a similar fashion.
It is not about arguing semantics, it is about setting a baseline for realistic comparison so that a card is not overestimated or underestimated. Wheel effects and Jar effects are fundamentally different in how a game state utilizes them.
You break symmetry of a Wheel by playing out your hand into the wheel. You break the symmetry of Jar by optimizing your plays based on what cards you can play, what cards you will get back, and what cards you draw. Jar is WAY more dynamic than a wheel effect and anyone trying to play a Wheel like a Jar is going to find themselves having too high of expectations for the effect.
I never said it wasn't a Wheel of Fortune effect, I was just drawing a connection that I don't think people noticed at first. For those that play(ed) Vintage, you should know that you usually wait until your next upkeep to crack Memory Jar because you get to use your natural draw alongside the Draw 7. The upside with Memory Jar is that your opponent can't really take advantage of the draw 7 since it only lasts a turn, but the important part with this card is that you get to use those cards first. This is HUGE since red is the color that takes advantage of this the most, especially with cards like Fireblast and Fiery Confluence.
I see the card being pretty similar in that you can activate it at instant speed and as long as you have the mana open it can be done to your liking, not at sorcery speed like with Wheel. Do you have more options with Jar? Typically. And the cards don't remain in their hand. But the execution of the effect is similar and while you say the jar is more dynamic, the cost of the wheel effects that we're discussing are certainly a lot more appealing, as you're never getting a jar off with 3 mana or 5 mana split over two turns.
You're not wrong, but neither is the Jar comparison either, even if it's not a carbon copy.
Lol. It's similar to a Jar effect in that you can get first crack at a fresh 7 with all your resources available. It's obviously different in some ways too. But the ability to set up those kinds of plays informs players of some realistic expectations for the card. Since we haven't seen an instant Wheel before, the comparison to Jar helps illustrate how powerful it can feel in the right window. Nothing more.
That, and the fact that unlike Wheel effects, both this card and Jar telegraph the effect they can have on the game. Otherwise the more apt comparison would be something like a Time Spiral with suspend. Either way, this isn't exactly Wheel because of how it would play, and looking at the potential effect from a few angles will be helpful.
Aggro and burn decks would love a 3 power 3-drop that can refill your hand when you run out of gas. Plus all the graveyard synergies. I'll definitely be trying him out.
Proxied this guy up last night and saw him in action in a Jund aggro/midrange deck. Being able to play him on curve was really good both times he saw play. Having a relevant attacker that can switch modes refill your hand was bonkers. One game he dealt 6 damage before I popped him, the other game I was a little behind so I left him back as a blocker to chump and wheeled before combat damage.
After playing with Magus I think he'll shine most in an aggro build. The 3/3 body is totally fine until he outlives his usefulness or your hand needs a refill.
Hm, this might actually play better than the original Wheel. Maybe I should try it after all.
I may play Magus over Wheel itself in a hard aggro deck but in most cases I bet Wheel would still be superior. Still, I was pleasantly surprised by how well he played.
I'd cut Feldon for this, but I already cut Feldon a while ago. Has he really been that good for you guys? He literally did nothing for about ten drafts before we cut him...
Wow, this makes mono-red a lot less boring. And that doesn't even scratch the surface of how it can be used in other decks...easy include for any cube.
I'd cut Feldon for this, but I already cut Feldon a while ago. Has he really been that good for you guys? He literally did nothing for about ten drafts before we cut him...
He does not show up often in our drafts. Reanimation decks will always try to pick him up and make him work but usually shift away from including red in the end. He was there for more of a Grixis Reanimation/Robots deck, but many people overlook that archetype because so many of the pieces are quick picks. The reason I have not cut him is that The opportunity for having him in Reanimation decks always exists, it just is not how the people in my play group draft the reanimation deck. I am waiting for someone to get him and go nuts with him just once, and I am sure he will start to see a lot more play.
The more I think about him the more I like. I might give him a shot over through the breach. A weird cut I know but TtB was only good to give the sneak attack deck a back up option. The magus will see play in reanimator red and probably be about as good a TtB and can certainly help you find that sneak attack or a whole bunch of fatties. I also like how he might play with feldon, and mimic vat which show up in those decks as well.
I'm going to test this out, probably over a Vandal or Ingot Chewer.
I was thinking of cutting the Vandal too since Fiery Confluence hits artifacts. It does take away from the Imperial Recruiter toolbox but maybe that's okay. Smash to Smithereens is another option but I really like how it's a 2cc spell.
I'm leaning toward a Vandal for cc purposes. Smash and Chewer can crush an artifact earlier than the Vandals and Magus looks better in aggro due to the p/t. And then I still need a cut for Fiery Confluence. I don't want to cut Avalanche Riders but maybe it's time.
I'd cut Feldon for this, but I already cut Feldon a while ago. Has he really been that good for you guys? He literally did nothing for about ten drafts before we cut him...
When you say he literally did nothing...does that mean that he didnt get drafted, or that he was cast in games and still did nothing? This would really surprise me, as Feldon is absurd if you can untap with him in most situations. Even if all you have in your bin is a Sea Gate Oracle, it's still totally fine to buy time with free chump blocks and card draw, but if you have something like Wurmcoil Engine in there, your opponent is probably just going to lose.
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The difference between getting initiative and a crack at 14 card options is completely different than 7 in terms of power level. By that logic, Forbidden Alchemy is a Dig Through Time...
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I think I've talked myself into testing this
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You break symmetry of a Wheel by playing out your hand into the wheel. You break the symmetry of Jar by optimizing your plays based on what cards you can play, what cards you will get back, and what cards you draw. Jar is WAY more dynamic than a wheel effect and anyone trying to play a Wheel like a Jar is going to find themselves having too high of expectations for the effect.
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You're not wrong, but neither is the Jar comparison either, even if it's not a carbon copy.
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That, and the fact that unlike Wheel effects, both this card and Jar telegraph the effect they can have on the game. Otherwise the more apt comparison would be something like a Time Spiral with suspend. Either way, this isn't exactly Wheel because of how it would play, and looking at the potential effect from a few angles will be helpful.
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After playing with Magus I think he'll shine most in an aggro build. The 3/3 body is totally fine until he outlives his usefulness or your hand needs a refill.
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I may play Magus over Wheel itself in a hard aggro deck but in most cases I bet Wheel would still be superior. Still, I was pleasantly surprised by how well he played.
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He does not show up often in our drafts. Reanimation decks will always try to pick him up and make him work but usually shift away from including red in the end. He was there for more of a Grixis Reanimation/Robots deck, but many people overlook that archetype because so many of the pieces are quick picks. The reason I have not cut him is that The opportunity for having him in Reanimation decks always exists, it just is not how the people in my play group draft the reanimation deck. I am waiting for someone to get him and go nuts with him just once, and I am sure he will start to see a lot more play.
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When you say he literally did nothing...does that mean that he didnt get drafted, or that he was cast in games and still did nothing? This would really surprise me, as Feldon is absurd if you can untap with him in most situations. Even if all you have in your bin is a Sea Gate Oracle, it's still totally fine to buy time with free chump blocks and card draw, but if you have something like Wurmcoil Engine in there, your opponent is probably just going to lose.