I think those custom lands are better than any of the WWK ones, excepting perhaps the BG one
Also, Khans/Origins gave us flip walkers, Siege Rhino, Dig/Cruise, Tribrids, Atarka, Ugin, Mentor, Hangarback, Abbot, Den Protector, and a metric crapton of good 1-drops. I wouldn't be so quick to judge that power level.
I think those custom lands are better than any of the WWK ones, excepting perhaps the BG one
Yeah, that UR one seems absurd. 3 turn clock on an evasive land is nuts, even if it has 1 toughness. And it blocks everything as well. It's probably better than all the WWK ones.
Seems weird having manlands competing with guild cards. Lingering Souls doesn't tap for W/B. Shouldn't manlands be competing with your dual/shock/fetch/xyzland cycles?
I can see people running the W/B painland over this card for example. I won't be but the ETB tapped clause hurts aggro more so there is an argument if your color pair heavily leans one war or the other.
Seems weird having manlands competing with guild cards. Lingering Souls doesn't tap for W/B. Shouldn't manlands be competing with your dual/shock/fetch/xyzland cycles?
I agree. I understand organizing lands into the guild section, but I'm firm on the numbers. I wouldn't cut something like Vindicate or Sorin to make room for a land - even one as good as this.
Lazy in comparison to the allied colored manlands. I hope there's 1 or 2 enemy manlands that can achieve this level and aren't just relevant color mechanics stapled onto duals.
Uh what?? W/G 3/4 reach, W/U 4/4 flying/vigilance, U/B 3/2 unblockable, R/B 2/2 fire breathing/pump... All just relevant color mechanics stapled to duals.
The only one that wasn't as basic was Raging Ravine as it had a growth mechanic that isn't seen quite as often.
As it stands the U/G and W/B lands shown so far are pretty much what the allied lands were...
The only difference (maybe) are the p/t numbers being a bit smaller but even then I can't really fault them.
The W/B land is cheapish and lifelink makes it hard for weenie rush/burn to fight against it while the hexproof on U/G makes it great in control mirrors.
So no I don't agree that these are more "lazy" than the originals. If you want to call them lazy then they are just as lazy as the originals were (for the most part).
What I meant was this is just a land that's one directional similar to Wildwood. It's nothing exciting and is just a flat good land.
However I view Colonnade, Tar Pit, Lavaclaw, Ravine, and the new Simic manland as exciting designs because of how flexible they are. Colonnade is relevant in combat as an evasive creature, but it also has vigilance which is extremely powerful if you think of the applications. A land having vigilance is no longer just a relevant color mechanic. That means you can activate to block or attack while holding up cheap interaction like Swords to Plowshares or Counterspell that you can use an activated Colonnade to pay for. That's a very powerful design even though it may be the most powerful out of the bunch.
I initially underestimated how powerful the Simic manland was because it's very close to Tar Pit's power level. Hexproof is very relevant and subtly powerful in the late stages of the game where it just blanks near all removal when beating down. You constantly put your opponent on edge especially if they have some sorcery speed removal like Acidic Slime and you have mana to activate it. I'm not saying every manland should be on the same power level as Colonnade but I think just stapling lifelink on a land isn't exciting. Unblockable, +1/+1 counter growth, and fire breathing on lands are designs that are rare to see.
I just want to second what you are saying. The power level of this card is definitely below some of the older ones but isn't a bad land. I think people often mistake criticism for disliking.
Seems weird having manlands competing with guild cards. Lingering Souls doesn't tap for W/B. Shouldn't manlands be competing with your dual/shock/fetch/xyzland cycles?
I agree. I understand organizing lands into the guild section, but I'm firm on the numbers. I wouldn't cut something like Vindicate or Sorin to make room for a land - even one as good as this.
No, not at all. That's exactly what I did for Creeping Tar Pit and Collonade, because I want to run Dual/Fetch/Shock. And I believe that those two cards are stronger than the #3 nonland card in the guild section. By doing this, it will ensure that my section is stronger than otherwise.
We've been playing for about a year with enemy manlands developed at WWK powerlevels (images here), and since the BFZ ones seem to be getting developed at Khans/Origins powerlevels I doubt we'll include any.
Slam dunk for most cubes though.
I would murder for these lands. These aren't just strong, they're cool as heck. I mean I'd love the Red blue ability to be that, but its probably prowess.
To the previous question, who thinks creeping tarpit and celestial collonade wouldnt be top 3 spells in their guild?
Well these seem to be generating some interest, but it isn't really about Shambling Vents, so I'm moving any talk about the manlands we're using over here. Luffy, I'm particularly interested in which ones you think would crack your guild sections.
I think those custom lands are better than any of the WWK ones, excepting perhaps the BG one
Also, Khans/Origins gave us flip walkers, Siege Rhino, Dig/Cruise, Tribrids, Atarka, Ugin, Mentor, Hangarback, Abbot, Den Protector, and a metric crapton of good 1-drops. I wouldn't be so quick to judge that power level.
Note that you've listed 1 walker, 2 delve cards that are simply considered developmental mistakes (modern banned) , and then all creatures. Creatures keep getting better, but I think WotC is more conservative with dual/utility land design now than when WWK was coming out. I suspect that Tar Pit, Colonnade, and maybe even Ravine would not see print nowadays.
No, not at all. That's exactly what I did for Creeping Tar Pit and Collonade, because I want to run Dual/Fetch/Shock. And I believe that those two cards are stronger than the #3 nonland card in the guild section. By doing this, it will ensure that my section is stronger than otherwise.
It would annoy me so much to have 3 lands in some sections and 4 lands in others. I do organize based on guild, so lands, gold, hybrid, signets, split, etc all sit in the same spot, but I allow for five lands per guild and five nonlands. At 360, I'd probably run four lands per guild and three nonlands.
To the previous question, who thinks creeping tarpit and celestial collonade wouldnt be top 3 spells in their guild?
Well, because I do it, I obviously think they are in the top 3 spells in their guild. However, it's only a choice that 360 have to made. At any cube size higher, you can just run them normally.
It would annoy me so much to have 3 lands in some sections and 4 lands in others. I do organize based on guild, so lands, gold, hybrid, signets, split, etc all sit in the same spot, but I allow for five lands per guild and five nonlands. At 360, I'd probably run four lands per guild and three nonlands.
I don't think expanding the guild section is a good idea. I do have to choose between one strong card and another, but that's just a part of running a 360 cube.
We've been playing for about a year with enemy manlands developed at WWK powerlevels (images here), and since the BFZ ones seem to be getting developed at Khans/Origins powerlevels I doubt we'll include any.
Slam dunk for most cubes though.
I just want to say that Izzet manland made me drool. That's a well designed card albeit very, very powerful. If I ever make proxies for cube, I would want that Izzet manland. I'd be happy if the BFZ Izzet manland had a loot effect for dealing combat damage to a player.
Well these seem to be generating some interest, but it isn't really about Shambling Vents, so I'm moving any talk about the manlands we're using over here. Luffy, I'm particularly interested in which ones you think would crack your guild sections.
I think those custom lands are better than any of the WWK ones, excepting perhaps the BG one
Also, Khans/Origins gave us flip walkers, Siege Rhino, Dig/Cruise, Tribrids, Atarka, Ugin, Mentor, Hangarback, Abbot, Den Protector, and a metric crapton of good 1-drops. I wouldn't be so quick to judge that power level.
Note that you've listed 1 walker, 2 delve cards that are simply considered developmental mistakes (modern banned) , and then all creatures. Creatures keep getting better, but I think WotC is more conservative with dual/utility land design now than when WWK was coming out. I suspect that Tar Pit, Colonnade, and maybe even Ravine would not see print nowadays.
Perhaps not, but the remaining duals remain to be seen; obviously reprinting fetchlands and fetchable duals in the same standard format do not appear to be out of their reach, as far as fixing goes. I also think you underestimate the power of hexproof manlands, as being immune to removal and wrath makes your UG land absurd and and WoTC's merely extremely good.
As for the power level comparison, I only list highlights; Evolutionary Leap, Languish, Collected Company, Kolaghan's Command are all examples of powerful noncreature, nonplaneswalker spells from this period, should that be necessary. Also, the only cube staples cards out of WWK were also developmental mistakes (Stoneforge, Jace), the manlands themselves, or ramp / ramp targets.
I'm not saying that they don't print strong cards anymore, just that developmental sensibilities have changed, in a way that I think makes it likely the new manlands will be worse. When I say WWK powerlevels I don't mean just WWK the set, but that era of standard. The standard of Mana Leak, Preordain, Flame Slash, BBE, Goblin Guide, and Journey To Nowhere. Those sorts of cards are gone, and they aren't coming back aside from developmental blunder.
Edit: And I think it's likely that you overestimate hexproof on lands. It's played less strong than we at first feared. Partially the issue is that by the time you want to sink your mana into manlands there are usually more creatures around and fewer removal spells in hands.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
Cubed with it tonight, played a WB midrange deck with sol ring/black lotus heh. The land felt very good.
Game 3 vs mono-red. Very exciting match where we were trading threat for answer back and forth, I answered most of his onslaught.
Late in the game I top deck shambling vents and slam elspeth knight errant , equiping a token with my sword of body and mind. He has a porcelaine legionaire in play. Attacks with the porcelaine legionaire, I chump block.
He casts devil's plays me from 6 life to 1, threatening to flash it back.
I Untap, animate the land, equip sword to land, +3/+3 and flying with elspeth, gaining 7 life, putting the game out of reach.
Probably a best case scenario that's biasing my opinion but if the WB land wasa any other man land, I lose that game.
I'll definitely pick this one up. They'd have to make the whole cycle pretty wretched for me to not. I was disenchanted with raging ravine and whatever the BR one is called at first, but then I realized color fixing that turns into non-wrathable, mana-sinking, aren't-glad-you-don't-just-have-to-sit-there-and-top-decking reach and protection. That said, I think they could have easily gotten away with a 4th toughness.
I will place a bet on the UR land being a 1/1 looter on combat damage, and WR being "2WR: 2/2 doublestrike"
This is no Celestial Colonnade, but I think this is definitely going to play out a lot better than it looks at first glance. Incidental lifegain is easy to overlook but can be absolutely backbreaking in many matchups, and can easily be converted into card advantage in black. So long, Fetid Heath!
I will place a bet on the UR land being a 1/1 looter on combat damage, and WR being "2WR: 2/2 doublestrike"
So far the enemy manlands seem to be mirroring the Keyrune cycle, but with a slight bump in power. 2/2 doublestrike in Boros seems like a safe bet, and the Golgari land's gotta have deathtouch, but I'd expect at least 2 power on an Izzet looting saboteur manland. Maybe they'll also give it flying?
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I hope that one or two of the remaining lands will be more interesting than just "body with a guild-appropriate keyword" (like Lavaclaw Reaches and Raging Ravine). Or at least a mix of two keywords (like Celestial Colonnade).
As for the necessary power level of these lands: Years ago, I was rather hesitant to include Lavaclaw Reaches, because it looked sooo bad. It certainly was the worst of the five WWK manduals. However, I quickly learned that it was still a valuable card. I certainly remember swinging with it for 6 or 7 damage in some late game topdeck wars. And even if it ate a removal or traded with a creature... hey, it was basically a free card (once you had enough lands).
Neither Shambling Vent nor Lumbering Falls look worse than Reaches, so they are slamdunk inclusions. Vent for example has the same activiation cost, but a bigger body and a useful keyword. It has a lower ceiling (no pump option for lots of damage), but a higher floor than Reaches. And I am completely fine with that.
The name makes me scratch my head though. I would always associate "Vent" with an UR or at least partially R land.
I'll be replacing Caves of Koilos for this. Or maybe Fetid Heath because there arent too many WW and BB at 2 mana anymore.
Man lands can be frustrating to play against. You have to reserve an instant removal for it or an extra blocker. All the while the land is actually just tapping for mana. I think the cycle is fairly costed.
Man lands can be frustrating to play against. You have to reserve an instant removal for it or an extra blocker.
In our last cube draft, I was playing a GRw ramp deck against a creature-light UW control deck. He could counter and wrath all my eldrazi and dragons, but he lost both games anyway, because I had Raging Ravine, Stirring Wildwood and Treetop Village and he had almost no answers to those.
I'm not saying that they don't print strong cards anymore, just that developmental sensibilities have changed, in a way that I think makes it likely the new manlands will be worse. When I say WWK powerlevels I don't mean just WWK the set, but that era of standard. The standard of Mana Leak, Preordain, Flame Slash, BBE, Goblin Guide, and Journey To Nowhere. Those sorts of cards are gone, and they aren't coming back aside from developmental blunder.
Edit: And I think it's likely that you overestimate hexproof on lands. It's played less strong than we at first feared. Partially the issue is that by the time you want to sink your mana into manlands there are usually more creatures around and fewer removal spells in hands.
I think it's less a change in power level than it is a change in philosophy. It's not that 1-mana cantrips and strong 2-mana countermagic have just gotten worse; they're just straight up not being printed anymore. Removal is more expensive but more luxurious, offering tons of value and versatility at a higher cost. Meanwhile, creatures today are just as good if not better than BBE, and Swiftspear pushes Guide levels in constructed. We're getting just as many cube staples today as we did back then; they're just coming in different forms.
Maybe I do overestimate the value of hexproof in a UG deck with little removal, but I can't help but think that a Sagu Mauler with basically no opportunity cost that dodges wrath is a little bit ridiculous. Not my cube though, so I'm glad that it's working well for you!
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Also, Khans/Origins gave us flip walkers, Siege Rhino, Dig/Cruise, Tribrids, Atarka, Ugin, Mentor, Hangarback, Abbot, Den Protector, and a metric crapton of good 1-drops. I wouldn't be so quick to judge that power level.
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Yeah, that UR one seems absurd. 3 turn clock on an evasive land is nuts, even if it has 1 toughness. And it blocks everything as well. It's probably better than all the WWK ones.
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I play around with it a bit last night and I like this land less than Sorin, Lingering Soul, and Vindicate. Will pass.
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I can see people running the W/B painland over this card for example. I won't be but the ETB tapped clause hurts aggro more so there is an argument if your color pair heavily leans one war or the other.
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I agree. I understand organizing lands into the guild section, but I'm firm on the numbers. I wouldn't cut something like Vindicate or Sorin to make room for a land - even one as good as this.
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I just want to second what you are saying. The power level of this card is definitely below some of the older ones but isn't a bad land. I think people often mistake criticism for disliking.
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No, not at all. That's exactly what I did for Creeping Tar Pit and Collonade, because I want to run Dual/Fetch/Shock. And I believe that those two cards are stronger than the #3 nonland card in the guild section. By doing this, it will ensure that my section is stronger than otherwise.
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I would murder for these lands. These aren't just strong, they're cool as heck. I mean I'd love the Red blue ability to be that, but its probably prowess.
To the previous question, who thinks creeping tarpit and celestial collonade wouldnt be top 3 spells in their guild?
thats my cube
Edit: This is related to Shambling Vents though.
Note that you've listed 1 walker, 2 delve cards that are simply considered developmental mistakes (modern banned) , and then all creatures. Creatures keep getting better, but I think WotC is more conservative with dual/utility land design now than when WWK was coming out. I suspect that Tar Pit, Colonnade, and maybe even Ravine would not see print nowadays.
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It would annoy me so much to have 3 lands in some sections and 4 lands in others. I do organize based on guild, so lands, gold, hybrid, signets, split, etc all sit in the same spot, but I allow for five lands per guild and five nonlands. At 360, I'd probably run four lands per guild and three nonlands.
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Well, because I do it, I obviously think they are in the top 3 spells in their guild. However, it's only a choice that 360 have to made. At any cube size higher, you can just run them normally.
I don't think expanding the guild section is a good idea. I do have to choose between one strong card and another, but that's just a part of running a 360 cube.
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I just want to say that Izzet manland made me drool. That's a well designed card albeit very, very powerful. If I ever make proxies for cube, I would want that Izzet manland. I'd be happy if the BFZ Izzet manland had a loot effect for dealing combat damage to a player.
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Perhaps not, but the remaining duals remain to be seen; obviously reprinting fetchlands and fetchable duals in the same standard format do not appear to be out of their reach, as far as fixing goes. I also think you underestimate the power of hexproof manlands, as being immune to removal and wrath makes your UG land absurd and and WoTC's merely extremely good.
As for the power level comparison, I only list highlights; Evolutionary Leap, Languish, Collected Company, Kolaghan's Command are all examples of powerful noncreature, nonplaneswalker spells from this period, should that be necessary. Also, the only cube staples cards out of WWK were also developmental mistakes (Stoneforge, Jace), the manlands themselves, or ramp / ramp targets.
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Edit: And I think it's likely that you overestimate hexproof on lands. It's played less strong than we at first feared. Partially the issue is that by the time you want to sink your mana into manlands there are usually more creatures around and fewer removal spells in hands.
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Game 3 vs mono-red. Very exciting match where we were trading threat for answer back and forth, I answered most of his onslaught.
Late in the game I top deck shambling vents and slam elspeth knight errant , equiping a token with my sword of body and mind. He has a porcelaine legionaire in play. Attacks with the porcelaine legionaire, I chump block.
He casts devil's plays me from 6 life to 1, threatening to flash it back.
I Untap, animate the land, equip sword to land, +3/+3 and flying with elspeth, gaining 7 life, putting the game out of reach.
Probably a best case scenario that's biasing my opinion but if the WB land wasa any other man land, I lose that game.
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I will place a bet on the UR land being a 1/1 looter on combat damage, and WR being "2WR: 2/2 doublestrike"
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So far the enemy manlands seem to be mirroring the Keyrune cycle, but with a slight bump in power. 2/2 doublestrike in Boros seems like a safe bet, and the Golgari land's gotta have deathtouch, but I'd expect at least 2 power on an Izzet looting saboteur manland. Maybe they'll also give it flying?
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As for the necessary power level of these lands: Years ago, I was rather hesitant to include Lavaclaw Reaches, because it looked sooo bad. It certainly was the worst of the five WWK manduals. However, I quickly learned that it was still a valuable card. I certainly remember swinging with it for 6 or 7 damage in some late game topdeck wars. And even if it ate a removal or traded with a creature... hey, it was basically a free card (once you had enough lands).
Neither Shambling Vent nor Lumbering Falls look worse than Reaches, so they are slamdunk inclusions. Vent for example has the same activiation cost, but a bigger body and a useful keyword. It has a lower ceiling (no pump option for lots of damage), but a higher floor than Reaches. And I am completely fine with that.
The name makes me scratch my head though. I would always associate "Vent" with an UR or at least partially R land.
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Man lands can be frustrating to play against. You have to reserve an instant removal for it or an extra blocker. All the while the land is actually just tapping for mana. I think the cycle is fairly costed.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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I think it's less a change in power level than it is a change in philosophy. It's not that 1-mana cantrips and strong 2-mana countermagic have just gotten worse; they're just straight up not being printed anymore. Removal is more expensive but more luxurious, offering tons of value and versatility at a higher cost. Meanwhile, creatures today are just as good if not better than BBE, and Swiftspear pushes Guide levels in constructed. We're getting just as many cube staples today as we did back then; they're just coming in different forms.
Maybe I do overestimate the value of hexproof in a UG deck with little removal, but I can't help but think that a Sagu Mauler with basically no opportunity cost that dodges wrath is a little bit ridiculous. Not my cube though, so I'm glad that it's working well for you!
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Did anyone else assume it would be the UR land when you saw the name, given Steam Vents and Sulfur Vent?
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass