Black Oath's emblem is irrelevant because it just makes more 5/5 flying demons that win the game for you. Reignited's ultimate needs to be relevant because it doesn't threaten your opponent on its own.
And I'd rather have a 5/5 flying every other turn than the effects on this card. And Black Oath creates creatures that can protect it if need be.
But the most important part is what they look like when they're dealt with. If they kill Black Oath and I have a 5/5 flying to show for my 5-mana investment, that's fine with me. If Reignited gets blasted after one activation, it's looking like a horrible use of 5 mana no matter which way you ran the loyalty.
They're very different cards. Black Oath should be evaluated as a creature that leaves a 'walker body behind. Reignited needs to be evaluated as a 5cc walker, and it's going to need multiple activations to be worth the 5 mana you spent on it.
Black Oath's emblem is irrelevant because it just makes more 5/5 flying demons that win the game for you. Reignited's ultimate needs to be relevant because it doesn't threaten your opponent on its own.
And I'd rather have a 5/5 flying every other turn than the effects on this card. And Black Oath creates creatures that can protect it if need be.
But the most important part is what they look like when they're dealt with. If they kill Black Oath and I have a 5/5 flying to show for my 5-mana investment, that's fine with me. If Reignited gets blasted after one activation, it's looking like a horrible use of 5 mana no matter which way you ran the loyalty.
They're very different cards. Black Oath should be evaluated as a creature that leaves a 'walker body behind. Reignited needs to be evaluated as a 5cc walker, and it's going to need multiple activations to be worth the 5 mana you spent on it.
Idk, there were so many times in testing where the 5/5 was just underwhelming. People have just swung around the 5/5 body and 2 loyalty is pretty easy to deal with even with a 5/5 in play if they are in a situation where they REALLY need to remove him before he makes more dudes - and I have had a lot of people just race it in aggro or out value it in more grindy midrange or control matches. I have Nissa, Worldwaker for this kind of play style and she is far more effective at it because she can push her loyalty up while pumping out the evasive big body. She has way more resiliency in this regard.
While they are very different cards, there is also a baseline in which I think a planeswalker is playable and Black Oath is not conforming to that baseline as well as Ob Reignited does and if his role is to pump out bodies for a win, Nissa is much more effective at it. This kind of effect in G vs B seems marginal in that black has a lot more powerful ways to get big bodies into the game that are more effective and just as efficient, if not more, at closing out the game than the 5/5 from Ob.
So their comparison is still relevant because they are both black walkers competing for sectional space in the same color which has a limit to how many cards it can have.
Do you want the 5/5 body effect, and does black need it?
Is it an effect that black can make efficient use of, over something else that may have more critical mass in terms of support for the mechanic?
Does the card represent enough versatility to give you enough options in situations that do not call for the -2 activation?
Cubes are all going to be different, and I get that. So if someone includes Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath, I am not really going to tell them they should not. But they should consider how much space they want to and need to dedicate towards planeswalkers in any particular color - not just black.
Personally, I think that Ob Nixilis Reignited is a better card, not because the abilities match up against its predecessor that way, but because I do not want to:
Over saturate a color in planeswalkers.
Include a planeswalker because of a narrow line of playability.
Give a color an effect I do not feel it really needs or even wants (more cube dependent than anything)
My point had nothing to do with how to play the cards properly, and everything to do with evaluating the overall value of the card in comparison to the other in the context of what makes a card better than another on a very fundamental level.
You will get more value out of Ob Nixilis Reignited the majority of the time, every time.
People have just swung around the 5/5 body and 2 loyalty is pretty easy to deal with even with a 5/5 in play
If they can attack through and around a 5/5 flying blocker and kill the 'walker with ease, why wouldn't they be able to do the same thing through a Murder effect?
And if you're not Murdering a creature, a 5cc Arena effect will do less for your ability to win the game than creating a 5/5 flying creature will.
Quote from Kamahl, the Fallen »
I do not want to:
Give a color an effect I do not feel it really needs or even wants (more cube dependent than anything)
Black is in desperate need of cards that can function as playable 5cc creatures, but doesn't need much in the way of cards that can grind out small advantages over the course of a long game.
Card advantage at the cost of life and creature removal effects abound in black. Playable 5cc creatures do not.
Quote from Kamahl, the Fallen »
You will get more value out of Ob Nixilis Reignited the majority of the time, every time.
I'd rather have this than Ob, of the black oath. Ob nixilis, Reignited will always be doing something useful for you. He doesn't have a one turn resting phase like his earlier brother, and I think in a control deck I'd rather have a board advantage engine than a 5/5 flying with upside.
I'm fine with just having a gap in my 5 drop creature section than running something subpar.
Making 5/5s every other turn seems better than drawing a card or removing a creature. There are plenty of other ways to draw cards in a control deck that is cheaper than this.
I agree with everything wtwlf said above. I also don't get how making a 5/5 flier is something 'black doesn't want or need'
There are a scant few board states where I'd rather have ONR's effect off the bat instead of a 5/5 flier (i.e. staring down a Baneslayer Angel). The +1s on both cards aren't exactly stellar, especially since even Phyrexian Arena at 3 mana is very slow these days (although ONR gives you an immediate activation), and although ONotBO's +1 is even worse, his Demon-making ability is much more impactful in the worst case scenario, and if an opponent can swing around that and deal with ONotBO as well, then ONR probably wasn't helping you much either aside from digging for a better card.
Yes, ONotBO has a 'narrow line of play', so fine to exclude it on perceived lack of excitement, but if I was going to run one of them, it would still be that one. The upside isn't there on ONR.
Reignited plays more like a traditional 'walker, and Black Oath plays more like a creature. They each have their pros and cons. But I feel that black needs the 5/5 fliers more than it needs removal & card advantage at the cost of life, because it has plenty of the latter and few of the former. And I think Black Oath has a much higher ceiling, as creating a 5/5 flying every other turn is a much higher upside than Reignited. By the time the sweet ultimate is available, as cool and cute as that win condition would be, the 5/5 demons would have killed them several turns before.
If you want a slow card advantage / value machine, use Reignited.
If you want a quick (and repeatable) threat maker, use Black Oath.
Black is full of creature removal and has multiple card draw effects, so I rather use the planeswalker that fills the lacking 5-drop creature slot and that can make even more than one big flyer.
(Sidenote: When we first played with Black Oath, the player who picked him thought the demon-making ability made him lose 5 life. And he still played him because he thought he was decent. He even won the first round while paying 5 life per demon. When he played against me in the second round and I pointed this mistake out, he was pleasantly surprised.)
FWIW I think Black Oath is quite a bit better than Reignited.
Agreed. If you're not killing a creature with that first activation, the initial drawn card will often feel a lot worse than the 5/5 demon, and I feel the long-game value presented with ONR is mitigated by not having a long game with a 5/5 flier machine. Maybe in some match ups ONR will be better, but I think the demons do more work consistently.
FWIW I think Black Oath is quite a bit better than Reignited.
Agreed. If you're not killing a creature with that first activation, the initial drawn card feels a lot worse than the 5/5 demon, and I feel the long-game value presented with ONR is mitigated by not having a long game with a 5/5 flier machine. Maybe in some match ups ONR will be better, but I think the demons do more work consistently.
Yep. A 5/5 flier is no joke, especially one every other turn.
Yes, with Shriekmaw being the only one viable option at that spot, nobody could argue that the black section wasn't desperatedly looking for a 5-drop creature when Black Oath was released. And for now, that walker does fill up the role nicely. There's also Priest of the Blood Rite that is trying to help at this task.
And like other already mentionned, I think that what the new Ob brings to the table, black already does it pretty well and don't need more of it.
At first evaluation, I like reignited > black oath by a small amount in control or slower good stuff decks, but less than black oath by a fair bit in every other deck.
What cards you are drawing with the phyrexian arena effect is important.
a 5/5 demon (the 2 life loss is no joke) is much better when applying other pressure and not when you are trying to stabalize and your opponent is at 20 life.
That said, I don't think I want to play either of them in any archetype except for the decks I like reignited better in, so I still have a glimmer of hope for reignited.
His +1 and her +1 are both card advantage, but his is less situational, because late-game in a topdeck war, your opponent may not have anything to discard.
His -3 is card advantage, while hers is just card selection.
Their ults both set up a fairly quick win with identical costs and setup times.
So far, my experience with this card is like, that this isn't his worst case scenario, rather than his average case scenario, just like Vraska the Unseen.
I'm really confused what this means. Do you mean that he comes down, -3's and dies every time? His ACS is that?
I too agree that black oath is slightly better, but it's actually a bit misleading to compare the two cards. Black oath is a creature with a very variable upside, reignited is a card advantage engine that is great when you're ahead but has a low floor (like many other walkers). I do think that comparing reignited to vraska is misleading because the thing which makes vraska so bad is that even in the games where she survives a few turns she isn't that amazing, whereas reignited can get a lot more value.
In testing, I think the biggest problem with this card is definitely the role that it fills. Black has some pretty busted card advantage engines and fantastic removal spells; this is competing with those instead of Black Oath, which is essentially a creature with upside.
Does anyone have any results on this guy? Sitting back and card advantaging your opponent out with him definitely intrigues me, but I'm curious if others who have seen it in action think it's good enough.
In BFZ limited, it's just so stupid how this card is powerful. For that reason, I'm also wondering if it could be as solid in cube. This week end, at the Quebec City GP, I saw a game in which one of the guy was having it and it was just so absurd. His opponent was having a bunch of treat in his hand, but Ob just eat them all, one after the other, while providing card advantage to his owner. Was so stupid.
And I'd rather have a 5/5 flying every other turn than the effects on this card. And Black Oath creates creatures that can protect it if need be.
But the most important part is what they look like when they're dealt with. If they kill Black Oath and I have a 5/5 flying to show for my 5-mana investment, that's fine with me. If Reignited gets blasted after one activation, it's looking like a horrible use of 5 mana no matter which way you ran the loyalty.
They're very different cards. Black Oath should be evaluated as a creature that leaves a 'walker body behind. Reignited needs to be evaluated as a 5cc walker, and it's going to need multiple activations to be worth the 5 mana you spent on it.
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Idk, there were so many times in testing where the 5/5 was just underwhelming. People have just swung around the 5/5 body and 2 loyalty is pretty easy to deal with even with a 5/5 in play if they are in a situation where they REALLY need to remove him before he makes more dudes - and I have had a lot of people just race it in aggro or out value it in more grindy midrange or control matches. I have Nissa, Worldwaker for this kind of play style and she is far more effective at it because she can push her loyalty up while pumping out the evasive big body. She has way more resiliency in this regard.
While they are very different cards, there is also a baseline in which I think a planeswalker is playable and Black Oath is not conforming to that baseline as well as Ob Reignited does and if his role is to pump out bodies for a win, Nissa is much more effective at it. This kind of effect in G vs B seems marginal in that black has a lot more powerful ways to get big bodies into the game that are more effective and just as efficient, if not more, at closing out the game than the 5/5 from Ob.
So their comparison is still relevant because they are both black walkers competing for sectional space in the same color which has a limit to how many cards it can have.
Cubes are all going to be different, and I get that. So if someone includes Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath, I am not really going to tell them they should not. But they should consider how much space they want to and need to dedicate towards planeswalkers in any particular color - not just black.
Personally, I think that Ob Nixilis Reignited is a better card, not because the abilities match up against its predecessor that way, but because I do not want to:
My point had nothing to do with how to play the cards properly, and everything to do with evaluating the overall value of the card in comparison to the other in the context of what makes a card better than another on a very fundamental level.
You will get more value out of Ob Nixilis Reignited the majority of the time, every time.
If they can attack through and around a 5/5 flying blocker and kill the 'walker with ease, why wouldn't they be able to do the same thing through a Murder effect?
And if you're not Murdering a creature, a 5cc Arena effect will do less for your ability to win the game than creating a 5/5 flying creature will.
Black is in desperate need of cards that can function as playable 5cc creatures, but doesn't need much in the way of cards that can grind out small advantages over the course of a long game.
Card advantage at the cost of life and creature removal effects abound in black. Playable 5cc creatures do not.
I have to respectfully disagree.
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I'm fine with just having a gap in my 5 drop creature section than running something subpar.
thats my cube
I think Black Oath IS the board advantage engine. A 5/5 flying every other turn is pretty good.
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There are a scant few board states where I'd rather have ONR's effect off the bat instead of a 5/5 flier (i.e. staring down a Baneslayer Angel). The +1s on both cards aren't exactly stellar, especially since even Phyrexian Arena at 3 mana is very slow these days (although ONR gives you an immediate activation), and although ONotBO's +1 is even worse, his Demon-making ability is much more impactful in the worst case scenario, and if an opponent can swing around that and deal with ONotBO as well, then ONR probably wasn't helping you much either aside from digging for a better card.
Yes, ONotBO has a 'narrow line of play', so fine to exclude it on perceived lack of excitement, but if I was going to run one of them, it would still be that one. The upside isn't there on ONR.
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I myself am trying the black oath right now. I'll see how he performs.
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If you want a quick (and repeatable) threat maker, use Black Oath.
Black is full of creature removal and has multiple card draw effects, so I rather use the planeswalker that fills the lacking 5-drop creature slot and that can make even more than one big flyer.
(Sidenote: When we first played with Black Oath, the player who picked him thought the demon-making ability made him lose 5 life. And he still played him because he thought he was decent. He even won the first round while paying 5 life per demon. When he played against me in the second round and I pointed this mistake out, he was pleasantly surprised.)
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Agreed. If you're not killing a creature with that first activation, the initial drawn card will often feel a lot worse than the 5/5 demon, and I feel the long-game value presented with ONR is mitigated by not having a long game with a 5/5 flier machine. Maybe in some match ups ONR will be better, but I think the demons do more work consistently.
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Yep. A 5/5 flier is no joke, especially one every other turn.
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And like other already mentionned, I think that what the new Ob brings to the table, black already does it pretty well and don't need more of it.
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What cards you are drawing with the phyrexian arena effect is important.
a 5/5 demon (the 2 life loss is no joke) is much better when applying other pressure and not when you are trying to stabalize and your opponent is at 20 life.
That said, I don't think I want to play either of them in any archetype except for the decks I like reignited better in, so I still have a glimmer of hope for reignited.
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StaffI like the card quite a bit better than Vess.
His +1 and her +1 are both card advantage, but his is less situational, because late-game in a topdeck war, your opponent may not have anything to discard.
His -3 is card advantage, while hers is just card selection.
Their ults both set up a fairly quick win with identical costs and setup times.
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I'm really confused what this means. Do you mean that he comes down, -3's and dies every time? His ACS is that?
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