@ryansaxe: Very interesting decks and I like the way you support those strategies in your cube! I'll definitely be using your cube as a resource as I look to introduce Aristocrats into my own cube.
Has anyone ever messed with Spawning Pit as an Aristocrats support card? It's a cheap instant speed sac outlet and a great way keep the token train rolling or rebuild after a wrath. It may be totally do-nothing and underpowered but it's a card that always over-performs for me in EDH so I wonder if my success with it could carry over to cube.
I think a really big key to supporting archetypes like this is minimizing the cards you include that only go in this deck while maximizing cards you include that can be played elsewhere, but excel in this deck. Blood Artist and the like already don't go in other decks, so you don't have as much room to play with cards like Spawning Pit. Feel free to try it out, but my gut says it's be lackluster.
The kinds of cards that really help support this archetype card are similar to Attrition. Sacrifice outlets and recursive cards that are playable alongside any cards completely disregarding Blood Artist are important to make sure you don't harm the draft experience with parasitic cards.
Similarly, the more "good cards" that incidentally synergize with the Aristocrats theme, the better it gets. A great example of that is Ranger of Eos. It's a solid card in your white aggro decks, but the ability to pick up *multiple* recursive black one-drops or even a sacrifice outlet (Carrion Feeder) makes it a great splash for Aristocrats. You'd be surprised at how many cards like this are already in many lists (e.g. Lingering Souls, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, and Reveilark etc etc). It just needs a liiiiittle more of a push to get there
I think a really big key to supporting archetypes like this is minimizing the cards you include that only go in this deck while maximizing cards you include that can be played elsewhere, but excel in this deck. Blood Artist and the like already don't go in other decks, so you don't have as much room to play with cards like Spawning Pit.
This x100.
I ended up very temporarily cutting black agro because of the amount of cards that ONLY worked in artistocrats.. Sometimes I'd get random UB midrange decks with like 7-8 side boardblack creatures that were unplayable because of lack of density of synergy. It made certain black color combinations or strategies unplayable, whereas if they were generically good black 2/3 drops like pack rat, kitesail freebooter, Gifted Aetherborn, there'd be more versatile midrange options.
Finding the right balance is tricky, but I believe it can be done. Cards like flesh carver are perfect, since they are naturally solid playables in multiple archetype, but the sacrifice aspect of it is very on theme.
It's only going to get better over time, as the developers at WOTC continue to print cards for this strategy in standard.
Spawning Pit was no good for me when I tried it. It's a solid sac outlet, but payoff is quite small. That said, it's a card with a lot of hidden uses, since you can just sac anything that was going to the grave anyway.
I play a BW version in modern for about two years and it works quite well. Stitchers supplier was the best new card for a while for the archetype and in recent play testing i found out that the new priest of forgotten gods is extremely powerful. The card combines many aspects that u need (sac outlet, disruption, drain, mana ramp and card draw). Here is my list:
Definitely the first four, I also like Viscera Seer and don't know if Cruel Celebrant is really necessary. Black/Red is the best combination for an Aristocrats deck and in my Cube is so consistent that if you just take Black/Red duals first you often end up with a strong version. The main advantage for this strategy is that the cards are individually not so powerful, so you get them much later than the key pieces for other archetypes. One of my favorite decks in Cube.
Edit: Forgot about Falkenrath Aristocrat, mostly because it's so bonkers I assumed it was already in most Cubes (similar to Greater Gargadon)! This is one of the best Rakdos cards in general, I'll run it in any Rakdos deck that has enough creatures but it's particularly insane in this shell.
But they all looked either too narrow or too expensive.
Is the first list a good place to start? Will it enable an effective archetype?
I have supported this archetype for maybe three years now, and I want to make something clear: Blood Artist type cards are not actually the key to supporting the archetype. They are extremely powerful in the archetype, but given that the majority are narrow/expensive, as you pointed out, it is much better to support the archetype by pushing the deck to exist WITHOUT them so that you don't include so many cards like that in the cube that it becomes parasitic.
The best way to support Aristocrats is to support black aggro and Braids/Stax. You just make some alterations to your cube for black aggro with cards that reward the aristocrat strategies. Here is a short list of cubable cards that many don't currently run, but that have a huge impact on the Aristocrat archetype:
All of these cards are quite strong in normal black aggressive decks and some in other decks like Gargadon. They synergize with the recursive creatures, but also reward including cards like Blood Artist and Zulaport Cutthroat in your deck. When you design your cube this way, the fail-rate of the archetype plummets because it can function perfectly without any Blood Artist effects.
If you're looking for additional cards to push it even further, I would recommend the following, because they ALL fit into non-aristocrat strategies, but still provide incentive.
As you can tell from these lists, it's way more about sac outlets than it is the actual Blood Artist. Blood Artist enables some nutty kills, but, as I've said, it's narrow and parasitic. Provide incentive to draft recursive cards WITH good sacrifice outlets and then when Blood Artist becomes an option, it smoothly fits into a deck that was already shaping up to be great!
Lastly, one change I made this past year that skyrocketed the equity of the Aristocrats deck was to include support for the persist combo as well as humans. This is because Metallic Mimic fits beautifully into these strategies. Murderous Redcap is already a solid cube card, and one that the Aristocrats deck loves. Introducing an infinite combo to the deck to piece together with tutors/recruitors gives the deck lots of game. And the humans aggro deck loves picking up Xathrid Necromancer and Cartel Aristocrat.
Anyways, I hope that gives some context to how to seed this archetype into your cube. It doesn't cost as much as you think, and has been performing well over here for years. I'll conclude this with a link to some cubetutor decks to show how awesome it is. Notice how while plenty of these decks have Blood Artist, they are still functional and powerful without the card. Let me know if you have any questions
I've observed that I have good aristocrats decks that show up pretty regularly by simply using the good sacrifice outlets, token makers and recursive threats that are organically in the cube. I wanted to look at adding in a couple of payoff cards to further incentivize seeking out those interactions. I realized how powerful the same combos and interactions I'm already doing get when I add a Blood Artist into the mix. And my cube may have a few slots opening up soon to try some of these cards out. Especially with Yawgmoth on the way.
Thanks for the detailed feedback! I'll probably test out some the tier-1 Blood Artist effects in my current sacrifice/token/recursion shells and see if it can add some teeth to the deck. Looks like it could be fun.
I agree that Celebrant isn't necessary we recently added Falkenrath Noble at 540 to further support the package. I recently added black aggro and cut some sac outlets zo may need to add some back.
With guild slots getting very tight I was considering dropping Falkenrath Aristocrat since Yawgmoth adds a sac outlet at the same cc, with a better effect and without needing red. Probably should run both though...
What's the minimum folks would run for the persist combo?
Spiteful Prankster - Seems decent rate for Blood Artist Bogardan Dragonheart - Seems decent. I'm reluctant to play Altar of Dementia right now as its pretty much only for the melira combo but I also don't want to go under 4 non-black sacrifice outlet as I want the deck to be playable using any non-blue colors.
Dragonheart seems decent, even for a red aggressive deck to fly over for 4 haste damage + 4 on the following turn.
They both seem like good cards. I'm going to avoid testing cards no one talked about as 90% of the time, they backfired really badly
Also does anyone know this ruling - Suppose I have a Rabblemaster + Bogardan - Could I go to combat create the token, then sacrifice it to Bogardan and it gains haste to attack?
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Maybe it's weird, but I like Altar of Dementia also as a regular card in control mirrors. Reshuffle effects are sparse in my Cube, essentially only Echo of Eons, Time Spiral and the Eldrazi Titans. Decking someone has been a real wincondition and with 40 cards it is easy to put your control opponent on a 5 turn clock or so.
Also does anyone know this ruling - Suppose I have a Rabblemaster + Bogardan - Could I go to combat create the token, then sacrifice it to Bogardan and it gains haste to attack?
Yes, that works since Rabblemaster triggers at the beginning of combat. Something like Hero of Bladehold does not work since attacks are already declared when the tokens are made (you can still make it a 4/4 flier before blocks and damage, just won't be able to attack through summoning sickness).
I found that a lot of people (this included myself) early on didn't realize Aristocrats is primarily an aggressive deck with sacrifice synergies.
The only part I disagree with is I try to go for 4 pieces of removal - I found your lists always went for 2, but I guess this is more of a player preference.
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I played some games with Melira Combo yesterday and I'm a bit disappointed to say that cards like Altar of Dementia and Blasting Station are a necessity for the archetype despite being super narrow. I wanted to avoid having this many super narrow cards for Melira, but it seems to be necessary in order for this archetype to thrive.
The dream card is Goblin Bombardment, which is both an aristocrats payoff and a Melira win loop. I was really hoping for another such card in Crimson Vow, which did not materialize.
The problem I found is Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, Viscera Seer, Woe Strider are great sacrifice outlets, but there needs to be something that they can scry/ draw into the following turn to win - Redcap, Blasting Station, Altar of Dementia.
The other problem is Bloodthrone Vampire, Carrion Feeder, Spawning Pit are good in aristocrats but only okay in Melira - It needs to result in a win. Overwhelming advantage loops aren't really that great.
I will be revisiting Spawning Pit in the upcoming days as it has been decent in Aristocrats.
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I feel Grist has really pushed this archetype to the top - It can be put into play a lot easier using cards like Birthing Pod, Collected Company in modern as well as providing an answer for the opponent's blockers/ fatties/ planeswalkers etc.
Grist was enough to make modern sacrifice a deck - its interaction with Collected Company just pushed it over the top.
I feel in order for aristocrats to function, we might need to find cards that can fit a similar role as Grist.
Less interested:
- Ob Nixilis Reignited - 5 CMC is a lot, but the removal + card advantage can be invaluable
- Kaya, Ghost Assassin - This can function as a 4 CMC planeswalker with removal that becomes a Sulfuric Vortex.
I'll be testing Ob Nixilis Reignited in my cube again - mostly to try to fill the Grist role
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I think this archetype can be quite good, but it’s one of the most difficult to support if you don’t support persist combo. For what it’s worth I also think The Meathook Massacre is the real deal.
I feel this deck really needs another Greater Gargadon or Goblin Bombardment for it to have the teeth to compete in a Vintage Environment.
I had a fun win with Westvale Abbey a few drafts ago with Blood Artist most of the time just felt like a decent black 2 drop in a red-black aggro deck.
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Has anyone ever messed with Spawning Pit as an Aristocrats support card? It's a cheap instant speed sac outlet and a great way keep the token train rolling or rebuild after a wrath. It may be totally do-nothing and underpowered but it's a card that always over-performs for me in EDH so I wonder if my success with it could carry over to cube.
The kinds of cards that really help support this archetype card are similar to Attrition. Sacrifice outlets and recursive cards that are playable alongside any cards completely disregarding Blood Artist are important to make sure you don't harm the draft experience with parasitic cards.
Similarly, the more "good cards" that incidentally synergize with the Aristocrats theme, the better it gets. A great example of that is Ranger of Eos. It's a solid card in your white aggro decks, but the ability to pick up *multiple* recursive black one-drops or even a sacrifice outlet (Carrion Feeder) makes it a great splash for Aristocrats. You'd be surprised at how many cards like this are already in many lists (e.g. Lingering Souls, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, and Reveilark etc etc). It just needs a liiiiittle more of a push to get there
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This x100.
I ended up very temporarily cutting black agro because of the amount of cards that ONLY worked in artistocrats.. Sometimes I'd get random UB midrange decks with like 7-8 side boardblack creatures that were unplayable because of lack of density of synergy. It made certain black color combinations or strategies unplayable, whereas if they were generically good black 2/3 drops like pack rat, kitesail freebooter, Gifted Aetherborn, there'd be more versatile midrange options.
Finding the right balance is tricky, but I believe it can be done. Cards like flesh carver are perfect, since they are naturally solid playables in multiple archetype, but the sacrifice aspect of it is very on theme.
It's only going to get better over time, as the developers at WOTC continue to print cards for this strategy in standard.
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I play a BW version in modern for about two years and it works quite well. Stitchers supplier was the best new card for a while for the archetype and in recent play testing i found out that the new priest of forgotten gods is extremely powerful. The card combines many aspects that u need (sac outlet, disruption, drain, mana ramp and card draw). Here is my list:
4 Viscera Seer
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Stitchers Suplier
3 Hunted Witness
4 Blood Artist
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Priest of Forgotten Gods
4 Lingering Souls
4 Return to the Ranks
4 Coincealed Courtyard
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Plain
2 Swamp
Sideboard
4 Fatal Push
2 Vampire Hexmage
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Judge‘s Familiar
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Carrion Feeder
Blood Artist
Zulaport Cutthroat
Judith, the Scourge Diva
Cruel Celebrant
Those cards look like the better support engines. There's all of these too:
Viscera Seer
Pious Evangel//Wayward Disciple
Falkenrath Noble
Vindictive Vampire
Hissing Iguanar
Poison-Tip Archer
But they all looked either too narrow or too expensive.
Is the first list a good place to start? Will it enable an effective archetype?
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Edit: Forgot about Falkenrath Aristocrat, mostly because it's so bonkers I assumed it was already in most Cubes (similar to Greater Gargadon)! This is one of the best Rakdos cards in general, I'll run it in any Rakdos deck that has enough creatures but it's particularly insane in this shell.
I have supported this archetype for maybe three years now, and I want to make something clear: Blood Artist type cards are not actually the key to supporting the archetype. They are extremely powerful in the archetype, but given that the majority are narrow/expensive, as you pointed out, it is much better to support the archetype by pushing the deck to exist WITHOUT them so that you don't include so many cards like that in the cube that it becomes parasitic.
The best way to support Aristocrats is to support black aggro and Braids/Stax. You just make some alterations to your cube for black aggro with cards that reward the aristocrat strategies. Here is a short list of cubable cards that many don't currently run, but that have a huge impact on the Aristocrat archetype:
All of these cards are quite strong in normal black aggressive decks and some in other decks like Gargadon. They synergize with the recursive creatures, but also reward including cards like Blood Artist and Zulaport Cutthroat in your deck. When you design your cube this way, the fail-rate of the archetype plummets because it can function perfectly without any Blood Artist effects.
If you're looking for additional cards to push it even further, I would recommend the following, because they ALL fit into non-aristocrat strategies, but still provide incentive.
As you can tell from these lists, it's way more about sac outlets than it is the actual Blood Artist. Blood Artist enables some nutty kills, but, as I've said, it's narrow and parasitic. Provide incentive to draft recursive cards WITH good sacrifice outlets and then when Blood Artist becomes an option, it smoothly fits into a deck that was already shaping up to be great!
Lastly, one change I made this past year that skyrocketed the equity of the Aristocrats deck was to include support for the persist combo as well as humans. This is because Metallic Mimic fits beautifully into these strategies. Murderous Redcap is already a solid cube card, and one that the Aristocrats deck loves. Introducing an infinite combo to the deck to piece together with tutors/recruitors gives the deck lots of game. And the humans aggro deck loves picking up Xathrid Necromancer and Cartel Aristocrat.
Anyways, I hope that gives some context to how to seed this archetype into your cube. It doesn't cost as much as you think, and has been performing well over here for years. I'll conclude this with a link to some cubetutor decks to show how awesome it is. Notice how while plenty of these decks have Blood Artist, they are still functional and powerful without the card. Let me know if you have any questions
Black Aggro with persist combo: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1116456
Black Red Aristocrats: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1110297
Black Red Aristocrats: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1103525
Black Red Stax: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1102138
Black White Aristocrats: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1099028
Black White Aristocrats: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1098609
Mardu Aristocrats: http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/1098554
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Thanks for the detailed feedback! I'll probably test out some the tier-1 Blood Artist effects in my current sacrifice/token/recursion shells and see if it can add some teeth to the deck. Looks like it could be fun.
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What's the minimum folks would run for the persist combo?
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Spiteful Prankster - Seems decent rate for Blood Artist
Bogardan Dragonheart - Seems decent. I'm reluctant to play Altar of Dementia right now as its pretty much only for the melira combo but I also don't want to go under 4 non-black sacrifice outlet as I want the deck to be playable using any non-blue colors.
Dragonheart seems decent, even for a red aggressive deck to fly over for 4 haste damage + 4 on the following turn.
They both seem like good cards. I'm going to avoid testing cards no one talked about as 90% of the time, they backfired really badly
Also does anyone know this ruling - Suppose I have a Rabblemaster + Bogardan - Could I go to combat create the token, then sacrifice it to Bogardan and it gains haste to attack?
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Yes, that works since Rabblemaster triggers at the beginning of combat. Something like Hero of Bladehold does not work since attacks are already declared when the tokens are made (you can still make it a 4/4 flier before blocks and damage, just won't be able to attack through summoning sickness).
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Thanks for these deck lists!
I found that a lot of people (this included myself) early on didn't realize Aristocrats is primarily an aggressive deck with sacrifice synergies.
The only part I disagree with is I try to go for 4 pieces of removal - I found your lists always went for 2, but I guess this is more of a player preference.
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2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
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The dream card is Goblin Bombardment, which is both an aristocrats payoff and a Melira win loop. I was really hoping for another such card in Crimson Vow, which did not materialize.
The problem I found is Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, Viscera Seer, Woe Strider are great sacrifice outlets, but there needs to be something that they can scry/ draw into the following turn to win - Redcap, Blasting Station, Altar of Dementia.
The other problem is Bloodthrone Vampire, Carrion Feeder, Spawning Pit are good in aristocrats but only okay in Melira - It needs to result in a win. Overwhelming advantage loops aren't really that great.
I will be revisiting Spawning Pit in the upcoming days as it has been decent in Aristocrats.
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Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
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1. Suite of cards that can function as both removal and can churn out sacrifice fodder.
The four cards that fit this narrative the best are:
- Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
- Grist, the Hunger Tide
- Oko, Thief of Crowns
- Palace Jailer
2. Cards that force both players to sacrifice resources, but the drawback is less punishing for the aristocrats player:
- Braids, Cabal Minion
- Smokestack
- Rankle, Master of Pranks
- Liliana of the Veil
I feel Grist has really pushed this archetype to the top - It can be put into play a lot easier using cards like Birthing Pod, Collected Company in modern as well as providing an answer for the opponent's blockers/ fatties/ planeswalkers etc.
Grist was enough to make modern sacrifice a deck - its interaction with Collected Company just pushed it over the top.
I feel in order for aristocrats to function, we might need to find cards that can fit a similar role as Grist.
Decently Strong:
- Liliana, the Last Hope
- Vraska, Golgari Queen
Less interested:
- Ob Nixilis Reignited - 5 CMC is a lot, but the removal + card advantage can be invaluable
- Kaya, Ghost Assassin - This can function as a 4 CMC planeswalker with removal that becomes a Sulfuric Vortex.
I'll be testing Ob Nixilis Reignited in my cube again - mostly to try to fill the Grist role
Anyone has any thoughts?
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Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
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I had a fun win with Westvale Abbey a few drafts ago with Blood Artist most of the time just felt like a decent black 2 drop in a red-black aggro deck.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i