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My current opinion of red 4 drops, based on pick preferences from my group.
1. Hellrider
2. Sneak Attack
3. Flametongue Kavu
4. Koth the Hammer
5. Porphorous, God of the Forge
6. Thunderbreak Regeant
7. Daretti, Scrap Savant
8. Ember Swallower
9. Shaman of the Great Hunt
10. Empty the Warrens
11. Hero of Oxid Ridge
12. Avalanche Riders
That is a metric ton of cards to compete against. And I don't think that this card beats any of them, and you have to be a pretty large size cube to need more than 12! I don't think can handle more than 10 in my 450. But the thing I realized when I listed this out is that 4 CMC is the total lynchpin for red archetypes and many archetypes in general.
From that list we have
Reanimator :2
Tokens:5
Aggro:5
Midrange/Fires:3
Wildfire:1
Artifact.dec:1
My classifications could be squishy, but a couple things stand out. I am no longer focusing on fires or wildfire so Ember Swallower can go. I don't really support the artifact dec but daretti needs to stay in for reanimator. The place where there is the most repetition is from Aggro and Tokens, so if want to add the new card I am looking at cutting 2 cards from the following.
Aggro
1. Hellrider
2. Koth
3. Hero of Oxid Ridge
4. Avalance Riders
5. Shaman of the Great Hunt
Tokens
1. Porphorous
2. Hellrider
3. Empty the Warrens
4. Shaman of the Great Hunt
5. Hero of Oxid Ridge
Shaman, Hero, and Hellrider fill the same role in almost all the decks so my least favorite (Hero) is the cut. Aggro decks have the most support outside of 4 and many of the midrange cards cam be a fine curve topper so I feel Avalanche Riders is the least needed. It is also not well liked in my group. Also plenty of cards like Flametongue, and Regent and this new card are fine in aggro, if not game enders.
So I had to kind of bend over backwards and I can just barely squeeze this couple in. I better pick up an agent of bolas and some moxes to make the most of the artifact deck I ma now supporting.
In my humble opinion, Thunderbreak Regeant, Ember Swallower, Empty the Warrens, and Shaman of the Wild Hunt are all easily cuttable for Mr. and Mrs. Nalaar. If I were to pick one, it would be Empty the Warrens.
I will probably cut Ire Shaman or Blistering Firecat for this. I'm not sure Red needs morph. It's options aren't as great as the other colors. Maybe Staggershock could go, but I like burn.
Is it me or didn't they make a big deal out of getting rid of Lanawar Elves for Elvish Mystic because they were trying to fix this problem. Then we got Anex and Cyanede and then this set where there looks to be multiple multiples.
Hmm, no? The problem never was a card representing multiple creatures, except when the stats don't represent them. A 1/1 is one elf, not elves. A 2/2 is one bear, not many grizzlies. But a 3/2 with many abilities can be a warrior/priestess couple.
I also don't like the design because they could have just chosen one of the characters and saved the other for another time, or crazy enough, make both of them, and give them some synergy.
They're dead, man. They can't return later. And there's probably a limited number of legends per color this set.
I honestly have no idea what I'm cutting for this. I think I like it more than Avalanche Riders, but I also don't really want to cut Avalanche Riders. Maybe it's time to cut Kiki-Jiki? I don't know yet.
FWIW, I think this guy (and gal) is (are?) better than Empty the Warrens, Shaman of the Great Hunt, Ember Swallower, and Thunderbreak Regent. I also think Keldon Champion is a great cut for this one.
I'm also in the Hellrider > Hero camp. Hero is fantastic, but Hellrider has been such a huge damage output for me. I feel like I'd want both plus FTK at 360, though. I can see maybe cutting Avalanche Riders at that size to give this a shot.
I want to run him, but... urgh. Finding cut in 360 is very much a pain these day. I'll probably cut one of the 4 drop. I don't want there to be too many 4 drop, especially in a smaller cube.
I like having both Hellrider and Hero in my red aggro decks. They both provide 5-6 damage when they get played and their abilities can win the game for a red aggro deck. I can't imagine cutting either at 360.
I like this card but I'm not sure it's the slam dunk that people here are making it out to be. This is not an aggressive creature and should not take the place of one unless your cube can support the cut to the aggressive archetype. Now, I luckily have a large cube (currently 685 cards) and I will be finding a place for the happy couple in it, but people talking about cutting Hellrider or Hero of Oxid Ridge is just craziness to me.
Pia and Kiran, IMHO, fit into the emerging artifact archetype in Red. With strong cards like Daretti, Scrap Savant and Feldon of the Third Path this archtype is coming together quite quickly and this card will fit happily into it. That being said, this card is not good in aggro, wildfire or sneak attack decks which are the other red archetypes I support. It may not even be good in mindrange/good stuff unless you have a few other artifacts in the deck (which admittedly is not that hard to do).
The problem is with so many different archetypes in Red, can smaller cubes give the proper support to each? If you're cutting Ember Swallower you're really hurting the wildfire strategy to support a different red archetype all together. Now, we were given a lot of aggro/burn 4 drops for a long time and I'm still running Keldon Champion who's time has run out, but I think people need to think about what they want their cube to do before just cutting what they see as the next weakest card.
I will say that I absolutely hate cards that represent two unique people, but that's just a flavor quibble of course.
I kind of agree, especially since the creature type is "human artificer", not "human artificers".
Is it me or didn't they make a big deal out of getting rid of Lanawar Elves for Elvish Mystic because they were trying to fix this problem. Then we got Anex and Cyanede and then this set where there looks to be multiple multiples. I also don't like the design because they could have just chosen one of the characters and saved the other for another time, or crazy enough, make both of them, and give them some synergy.
I'm with you 100%, it's a flavor fail especially since there isn't really anything about Pia and Kiran that suggest two people. Would it have killed them to make two unique red legends? They've only done this twice before, and I felt the same way about Anax and Cymede.
As for the cut, I'm leaning towards Siege-Gang Commander. Since I brought in both Kiki-Jiki and Zealous Conscripts my red 5-slot is feeling crowded, and the goblin tribal synergy is less likely to matter than being able to sac artifacts.
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The debate between P&K vs Siege-gang really boils down to rather having a stronger goblin theme, or more artifact support in red. And thwt's completely subjective to the cube.
That being said, this card is not good in aggro...
I don't think this is true. While it may not be as good as Hero/Hellrider, it's still a good 4-drop in that deck. 4-power, 3 threats, evasion, reach, removal ...it's still a valuable card to have in that deck too. I think people are too focussed on the synergy play this provides (which is great because it contributes to a bunch of archetypes) and are less focussed on the fact that this is just straight-up a good creature on its own. This is arguably a Siege-Gang caliber 4-drop, comparable in powerlevel to its predecessor, and Siege-Gang was a top-20 contender yet again this year.
As for the cut, I'm leaning towards Siege-Gang Commander. Since I brought in both Kiki-Jiki and Zealous Conscripts my red 5-slot is feeling crowded, and the goblin tribal synergy is less likely to matter than being able to sac artifacts.
I'm exactly on the same boat.
Having four 5-drops in the red section seems overcrowded to me and I think the commander should be a fine cut for Chandra's roots. I haven't finish brainstorming on it yet but it is my cut for now. FTK, Hellrider, HoOR and AR are all to good options to be cut IMO. Plus, I was lurking to add a red 4-drop since weeks, so this could finally be the right time and way to do it. I was looking at Shaman of the Great Hunt in order to do that, but Pia and Kiran seems just so much better. I was not high on cutting Siege-Gang Commander for it, but with that new card, it will almost be like it never leave the cube.
But maybe I should look elsewhere because adding a Siege-Gang Commander 2.0 could help the Purphoros/Tokens archetype. I don't know yet.
I agree. I don't like the Siege-Gang cut either. But you have to sacrifice a lot in order to get the Kiki/Twin package to operate (just one of the reasons I don't like running that package in the cube).
I like the SGC cut much more than other proposed cuts. Siegegangcommander was super slow in red decks for us, which eventually led to him getting cut. When looking for a cut, the more narrow card that costs 1 more seems like a completely reasonable cut to me.
I think the Kiki/Twin package is easy enough to support. Twin is the only weak card really... Both Pestermite and Exarch have been good and are often drafted outside the combo. Just depends how much your group values (is it fun enough to draft/play, are people winning with it?) having the combo -- I dont think 3 maybe 4 slots is a lot to sacrifice to support a fun/winning deck.
I guess I can see how SGC is a bit slow compared to the other 5cc guys. But I value him quite highly and I can't knock him for not performing. He almost always makes the deck even in aggro decks. I've cut Avalanche Riders already and have only been running one of HoOR or Hellrider for several months now due to space issues. I never feel like I'm short on aggro curve toppers during drafts/deckbuilding especially in red decks (though I could use another Hellrider tier one in black).
I've been preparing for an increase to 400-405 (from 385) and I think Origins is the set to get me to do it.
But it's not more narrow. It makes more bodies, does more on an empty board, has a cheaper activation cost, and has more damage output on its own. Ma and Pa Nalaar are certainly comparable, but I don't think they are necessarily better. Even if this does end up being better than SCG, I still don't think that's the right cut to make room. SCG is a 360 staple imo.
I think I'll have to cut Blistering Firecat to fit this in. I'm definitely not cutting FTK, Hero, or Hellrider, nor Siege-Gang from the 5 slot. So it comes down to Firecat or Avalanche Riders. While the Firecat certainly hits like a hammer, I like having the versatility of Avalanche Riders to blow up singleton or pesky lands my opponent has. Decisions, decisions.
But it's not more narrow. It makes more bodies, does more on an empty board, has a cheaper activation cost, and has more damage output on its own. Ma and Pa Nalaar are certainly comparable, but I don't think they are necessarily better. Even if this does end up being better than SCG, I still don't think that's the right cut to make room. SCG is a 360 staple imo.
SGC is far too slow in 360 in my experience, to be a staple.
It is more narrow because there are far more artifacts than their are goblins. Those are all advantages of SCG, but it's ability is more narrow.
That has been my experience as well, even at 450. Often times, I'd much rather play a Thundermaw Hellkite or Zealous Conscripts in the same slot for my Red decks, or another 5-drop if I'm also in Green or White.
It is more narrow because there are far more artifacts than their are goblins.
Siege-Gang Commander gives you 4 things to sacrifice to its ability, and The Nalaartificers give you 2. So unless you have 3+ other artifacts to sacrifice to the ability on average, I'd say that this simply isn't true.
Pia and Kiran cost 1 less and this should be taken into consideration when we compare them. So it is trully normal that SGC seems better since it's a costlier card. But with that said, I'm not convinced on SGC's cut either. Maybe we should look elsewhere. Him and this new card put together could push the cube into some much stronger Purphoros's strategies. Could be fun.
The argument isn't better/worse, because they're different. Just that SGC doesn't feel like the right cut. I think they're comparable in powerlevel, with their respective CMCs considered. Which says a lot about this new creature, because SGC is a fantastic card. You could make an argument for SGC being more narrow because P&KN supports one more archetype than SGC does, but it's not because of the artifacts vs goblins thing.
One of my favorite things about Pia and Kiran coming into the cube is seeing the red token deck get bolstered organically. Cutting SGC would be a step backward for that deck.
In my humble opinion, Thunderbreak Regeant, Ember Swallower, Empty the Warrens, and Shaman of the Wild Hunt are all easily cuttable for Mr. and Mrs. Nalaar. If I were to pick one, it would be Empty the Warrens.
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Hmm, no? The problem never was a card representing multiple creatures, except when the stats don't represent them. A 1/1 is one elf, not elves. A 2/2 is one bear, not many grizzlies. But a 3/2 with many abilities can be a warrior/priestess couple.
They're dead, man. They can't return later. And there's probably a limited number of legends per color this set.
FWIW, I think this guy (and gal) is (are?) better than Empty the Warrens, Shaman of the Great Hunt, Ember Swallower, and Thunderbreak Regent. I also think Keldon Champion is a great cut for this one.
I'm also in the Hellrider > Hero camp. Hero is fantastic, but Hellrider has been such a huge damage output for me. I feel like I'd want both plus FTK at 360, though. I can see maybe cutting Avalanche Riders at that size to give this a shot.
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Pia and Kiran, IMHO, fit into the emerging artifact archetype in Red. With strong cards like Daretti, Scrap Savant and Feldon of the Third Path this archtype is coming together quite quickly and this card will fit happily into it. That being said, this card is not good in aggro, wildfire or sneak attack decks which are the other red archetypes I support. It may not even be good in mindrange/good stuff unless you have a few other artifacts in the deck (which admittedly is not that hard to do).
The problem is with so many different archetypes in Red, can smaller cubes give the proper support to each? If you're cutting Ember Swallower you're really hurting the wildfire strategy to support a different red archetype all together. Now, we were given a lot of aggro/burn 4 drops for a long time and I'm still running Keldon Champion who's time has run out, but I think people need to think about what they want their cube to do before just cutting what they see as the next weakest card.
I'm with you 100%, it's a flavor fail especially since there isn't really anything about Pia and Kiran that suggest two people. Would it have killed them to make two unique red legends? They've only done this twice before, and I felt the same way about Anax and Cymede.
As for the cut, I'm leaning towards Siege-Gang Commander. Since I brought in both Kiki-Jiki and Zealous Conscripts my red 5-slot is feeling crowded, and the goblin tribal synergy is less likely to matter than being able to sac artifacts.
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Same here. I'm feeling like it might be finally Champion's time to head off into the sunset, I just can never seem to cut him.
I cut Keldon Champion years ago and never looked back, that echo cost...
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I don't think this is true. While it may not be as good as Hero/Hellrider, it's still a good 4-drop in that deck. 4-power, 3 threats, evasion, reach, removal ...it's still a valuable card to have in that deck too. I think people are too focussed on the synergy play this provides (which is great because it contributes to a bunch of archetypes) and are less focussed on the fact that this is just straight-up a good creature on its own. This is arguably a Siege-Gang caliber 4-drop, comparable in powerlevel to its predecessor, and Siege-Gang was a top-20 contender yet again this year.
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I'm exactly on the same boat.
Having four 5-drops in the red section seems overcrowded to me and I think the commander should be a fine cut for Chandra's roots. I haven't finish brainstorming on it yet but it is my cut for now. FTK, Hellrider, HoOR and AR are all to good options to be cut IMO. Plus, I was lurking to add a red 4-drop since weeks, so this could finally be the right time and way to do it. I was looking at Shaman of the Great Hunt in order to do that, but Pia and Kiran seems just so much better. I was not high on cutting Siege-Gang Commander for it, but with that new card, it will almost be like it never leave the cube.
But maybe I should look elsewhere because adding a Siege-Gang Commander 2.0 could help the Purphoros/Tokens archetype. I don't know yet.
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I guess I can see how SGC is a bit slow compared to the other 5cc guys. But I value him quite highly and I can't knock him for not performing. He almost always makes the deck even in aggro decks. I've cut Avalanche Riders already and have only been running one of HoOR or Hellrider for several months now due to space issues. I never feel like I'm short on aggro curve toppers during drafts/deckbuilding especially in red decks (though I could use another Hellrider tier one in black).
I've been preparing for an increase to 400-405 (from 385) and I think Origins is the set to get me to do it.
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SGC is far too slow in 360 in my experience, to be a staple.
It is more narrow because there are far more artifacts than their are goblins. Those are all advantages of SCG, but it's ability is more narrow.
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Siege-Gang Commander gives you 4 things to sacrifice to its ability, and The Nalaartificers give you 2. So unless you have 3+ other artifacts to sacrifice to the ability on average, I'd say that this simply isn't true.
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One of my favorite things about Pia and Kiran coming into the cube is seeing the red token deck get bolstered organically. Cutting SGC would be a step backward for that deck.
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