I would personally play both at 360, and I ranked them both in the top 20. Rolling Earthquake is more consistent, but there are some decks where Earthquake is just an asymmetrical problem for your opponent.
I'd need to be playing an extra-small cube (something like 180 or so) to consider not playing both. And that would be more for having space for a variety of effects, not power level.
I know the rankings aren't perfect, I've been hearing this all week, but there's a reason Earthquake got a 17th position in red. Both are 360-staples.
I like Earthquake but I don't think it's a 360 staple and we did run it for a very long time. I think it's in the same tier as Bonfire. Just did a quick glance over at Goodking's (360) and Usman's (450) cubes and neither of them are running it either at the moment.
I don't run either. This always seemed like the wrong mix of things to me. As a control player, you typically don't want to deal damage to yourself for a conditional sweeper. As aggro, you typically have a lot of ground dudes that will be affected (and even if your army is dead, do you generally have enough mana to really get great value out of these cards? Why not just run Char or something?).
But I may not fully understand how this card is best used. That's certainly possible and anyone that wants to educate me, by all means.
You can scale it to sweep your opponent's threats and keep your guys alive. The player damage kills 'walkers, essentially adding a 'walker bullet to your Wrath effect. The self-damage doesn't matter much, since you can play it early to actually preserve your life. Being able to play this on T3 to kill your opponent's 2/1 and 2/2 before they get to attack you again actually saves you life, despite the damage it deals to you; the same reason why Toxic Deluge is the best Wrath effect even though it costs you life. But it also damages your opponent and can kill their 'walkers. Or when you're flooded and losing, you can dump a ton of mana into it and kill both players, ending the game in a draw.
Not to mention that you can make Earthquake asymmetrical by adding it into a deck that features a higher concentration of flyers. In the right deck, it can be like a Plague Wind that also Blazes your opponent.
I think it's a mistake not to play both at every cube size, the powerlevel is just too high.
I'm still running Pyroclasm and Whipflare. I might cut Whipflare soon but Pyro is not in any threat of being cut.
Yeah, Pyroclasm is great, and not running the others seems less of an issue of red being linear and more that you only need so many of each type of effect that there's no reason to run a lot of them. Like how many red decks really want pyroclasm? And how many of those decks would be just as happy playing an earthquake variant? Even before Slagstorm and Anger came out, most cubes weren't running all 3 or 4 of the others. Cube slots are too precious to run so many of the same effect that a lot of red decks have no interest in as is.
I'm running Pyroclasm and Rolling, but not Earthquake.
Like wtwlf said, Earthquake seems just fine if we craft around it wit some flying dudes, but I prefer the constency that offer the portal version of it. I do respect the powerlevel of each, but I don't want to be running 2 cards that bring the exact same effect (or almost) to the table. That's particulary true if those cards aren't part of a important archetype, like Ravages-Armageddon and Wildfire-Xinye for example. Another similar case, I'm running Cultivate but not Kodama's Reach. Maybe I should be doing the opposite, but I really prefer the promo version of Cultivate just for the art. I know that by doing it, I'm closing the arcane window with Through the Breach, but I don't care that much about it
To add something on Pyroclasm, it is a the cut zone for me right now, so basicly I'm only running RE.
We support these archetypes in red at 450:
- aggro
- token
- spells matter
- burn
- midrange
- control (Earthquakes are crucial for controllish red decks)
- artifact cheating
This doesn't feel too linear. Unless you mean that red has a lot of burn, which is true because all red based decks are glad having some burn. But hey red is red, if you want an intelligent colour, better draft white ,blue or black.
You can scale it to sweep your opponent's threats and keep your guys alive. The player damage kills 'walkers, essentially adding a 'walker bullet to your Wrath effect. The self-damage doesn't matter much, since you can play it early to actually preserve your life. Being able to play this on T3 to kill your opponent's 2/1 and 2/2 before they get to attack you again actually saves you life, despite the damage it deals to you; the same reason why Toxic Deluge is the best Wrath effect even though it costs you life. But it also damages your opponent and can kill their 'walkers. Or when you're flooded and losing, you can dump a ton of mana into it and kill both players, ending the game in a draw.
But it doesn't scale all that well since the damage can never be more than your total available mana - 1. Comparing this to Toxic Deluge seems a bit of a stretch since that card can scale as high as you need it to go always for 3 mana. Black is also a much more popular control color as opposed to red (at least in my cube). The non-aggressive decks that feature red in my cube are generally sneak attack, welder or feldon decks. Wildfire too I guess (though that has fallen out of favor as of late). And other than the wildfire deck and maybe sneak attack, I'm not sure how much they would want Earthquake over other options. Welder/Feldon would rather have mizzium mortars (which is solid early and ridiculous overloaded) or just some targeted burn (which has the benefit of being more useful in other decks as well).
2 for 1'ing the elf deck or the aggro guy is great (even game winning), but does either deck really need another hoser? Elves in particular are pretty fragile. I already took out Arc Trail and Arc Lightning for being oppressive to decks that want to drop a creature turn 1 and 2. I don't know that I want a scalable version of that effect that doesn't also hose things which could stand to be hated a bit (like lingering souls). Hmmm... this is suddenly making me want to put Hurricane back in my cube...
I think it's a mistake not to play both at every cube size, the powerlevel is just too high.
I suspect that may be because it can also hit walkers which is a very powerful effect in contemporary cube lists.
I think you might want to look at those other sections if your aggro decks are just scooping to Arc Trail and Arc Lightning. Your problem may run a bit deeper.
And yes, being able to redirect damage from Earthquake to 'walkers is insane. In my own Cube, Earthquake gets played in big splashy/control Jund and Temur lists that don't rely on Llanowar Elves to advance their mana. They also play great in the Wildfire artifact ramp lists. And even Izzet or Jeskai will drop it in to have a sweeper that doesn't cost WW and can keep the aggressive decks at bay.
The comparison to Toxic Deluge was to show that self-damage effects don't prohibit a card from being good in control shells, not to insinuate that you get everything out of Earthquake that you do from Deluge.
And ya, if Arc Lightning is so good it had to be banned, you should stay away from Earthquake. It's not about needing more hosers for aggro decks and mana dorks, it's about giving control enough tools to not be overrun by them. Since you don't support aggro very heavily, it would make sense that you need less tools to combat the deck. And since control is already favored against midrange, cards like Earthquake are going to feel oppressive to your players, since they're playing all the Elves they can get their hands on.
And yes, killing planeswalkers and creatures at the same time is important and relevant. Again, only for cubes that play those kinds of cards (which is the vast majority of them).
If all you play is hard aggro in red, these effect won't do much for you. But if players branch out with their red decks in any direction other than Jackal Pup beats, they'll find ways to use and abuse Earthquake effects to their advantage.
Agree with others about red going in multiple directions. The addition of things like Feldon of the Third Path and Daretti, Scrap Savant has helped to solidify red's presence as a secondary reanimator colour with things like Sneak Attack, and solid role-players like Faithless Looting and Tormenting Voice (yes, I'm running this). I for one am very happy about the new-look diverse and exciting red. On top of the traditional burn/aggro and R/x Wildfire decks, we can build a wide variety of red deck types in our cube now, so much so that it is possibly the trickiest colour to balance right now.
I find Earthquake variants get a lot better the more unfair your cube is - Blue-Red Combo (Sneak Attack/ Twin), Artifact Ramp, Lands, Storm, Reanimator, Wildfire etc. all struggle with consistency both with your curve but also with their draws/ enablers.
Earthquake are often fine plays turn 2-3 (X=1-2) for slower hands to help curve into 4-5 payoffs, but also buy time and are occasionally fine late game payoffs.
But if your cube is more fair, I feel these cards are less good.
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Rolling Earthquake seems like a staple even at 360, but at what size would you want both?
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I know the rankings aren't perfect, I've been hearing this all week, but there's a reason Earthquake got a 17th position in red. Both are 360-staples.
But I may not fully understand how this card is best used. That's certainly possible and anyone that wants to educate me, by all means.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Not to mention that you can make Earthquake asymmetrical by adding it into a deck that features a higher concentration of flyers. In the right deck, it can be like a Plague Wind that also Blazes your opponent.
I think it's a mistake not to play both at every cube size, the powerlevel is just too high.
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I know these aren't exactly Earthquakes, but can we talk about how nobody runs these types of cards anymore? Red is getting really linear...
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Yeah, Pyroclasm is great, and not running the others seems less of an issue of red being linear and more that you only need so many of each type of effect that there's no reason to run a lot of them. Like how many red decks really want pyroclasm? And how many of those decks would be just as happy playing an earthquake variant? Even before Slagstorm and Anger came out, most cubes weren't running all 3 or 4 of the others. Cube slots are too precious to run so many of the same effect that a lot of red decks have no interest in as is.
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Like wtwlf said, Earthquake seems just fine if we craft around it wit some flying dudes, but I prefer the constency that offer the portal version of it. I do respect the powerlevel of each, but I don't want to be running 2 cards that bring the exact same effect (or almost) to the table. That's particulary true if those cards aren't part of a important archetype, like Ravages-Armageddon and Wildfire-Xinye for example. Another similar case, I'm running Cultivate but not Kodama's Reach. Maybe I should be doing the opposite, but I really prefer the promo version of Cultivate just for the art. I know that by doing it, I'm closing the arcane window with Through the Breach, but I don't care that much about it
To add something on Pyroclasm, it is a the cut zone for me right now, so basicly I'm only running RE.
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It is? I think red is doing the opposite. It's in the process of evolving in more directions than any other color over the last couple years.
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- aggro
- token
- spells matter
- burn
- midrange
- control (Earthquakes are crucial for controllish red decks)
- artifact cheating
This doesn't feel too linear. Unless you mean that red has a lot of burn, which is true because all red based decks are glad having some burn. But hey red is red, if you want an intelligent colour, better draft white ,blue or black.
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Are you calling green unintelligent??! Green has mana dorks, big dumb fatties and... err
Well it still has a card in this year's top 20 with Einsten's equation RIGHT ON THE PICTURE!!
But it doesn't scale all that well since the damage can never be more than your total available mana - 1. Comparing this to Toxic Deluge seems a bit of a stretch since that card can scale as high as you need it to go always for 3 mana. Black is also a much more popular control color as opposed to red (at least in my cube). The non-aggressive decks that feature red in my cube are generally sneak attack, welder or feldon decks. Wildfire too I guess (though that has fallen out of favor as of late). And other than the wildfire deck and maybe sneak attack, I'm not sure how much they would want Earthquake over other options. Welder/Feldon would rather have mizzium mortars (which is solid early and ridiculous overloaded) or just some targeted burn (which has the benefit of being more useful in other decks as well).
2 for 1'ing the elf deck or the aggro guy is great (even game winning), but does either deck really need another hoser? Elves in particular are pretty fragile. I already took out Arc Trail and Arc Lightning for being oppressive to decks that want to drop a creature turn 1 and 2. I don't know that I want a scalable version of that effect that doesn't also hose things which could stand to be hated a bit (like lingering souls). Hmmm... this is suddenly making me want to put Hurricane back in my cube...
I suspect that may be because it can also hit walkers which is a very powerful effect in contemporary cube lists.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
And yes, being able to redirect damage from Earthquake to 'walkers is insane. In my own Cube, Earthquake gets played in big splashy/control Jund and Temur lists that don't rely on Llanowar Elves to advance their mana. They also play great in the Wildfire artifact ramp lists. And even Izzet or Jeskai will drop it in to have a sweeper that doesn't cost WW and can keep the aggressive decks at bay.
And ya, if Arc Lightning is so good it had to be banned, you should stay away from Earthquake. It's not about needing more hosers for aggro decks and mana dorks, it's about giving control enough tools to not be overrun by them. Since you don't support aggro very heavily, it would make sense that you need less tools to combat the deck. And since control is already favored against midrange, cards like Earthquake are going to feel oppressive to your players, since they're playing all the Elves they can get their hands on.
And yes, killing planeswalkers and creatures at the same time is important and relevant. Again, only for cubes that play those kinds of cards (which is the vast majority of them).
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Earthquake are often fine plays turn 2-3 (X=1-2) for slower hands to help curve into 4-5 payoffs, but also buy time and are occasionally fine late game payoffs.
But if your cube is more fair, I feel these cards are less good.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i