Flawless Victory! Ancestral Recall, Vampiric Tutor, Lightning Bolt, and Sol Ring all received perfect scores from voters that included them. Dissenting Opinion! Chained to the Rocks also received a perfect score, but was voted on by a plurality of voters. Sylvan Tutor received an average score of 7.00, but was only included by 37.5% of voters. Manic Depression! Bonesplitter had the greatest spread in rankings, from #2 to #9. Just Missed!Aether Vial (2.00), Careful Study (1.67), Rift Bolt (3.00), and Exploration (5.00) had enough votes to make it onto the list via plurality, but were defeated by Trusty Machete, Vapor Snag, Gamble, and Nature's Claim respectively. Special thanks to our voters: willdice, LucidVision, Ennex, wtwlf123, Spike Rogue, calibretto, Dr. Tom, ColbyCube
Bestow: Ignore the Bestow cost. (Herald of Torment is a 3cc black creature.)
Bloodrush: Counts as the Bloodrush cost. (Pyrewild Shaman is a 2cc red spell.)
Buyback: If the Buyback cost is a mana cost, that cost is included. (Capsize is a 6cc blue spell. Forbid is still a 3cc blue spell.)
Entwine: Counts with the Entwine cost included. (Tooth and Nail is a 9cc green spell.)
Kicker: Ignored on spells. Included on creatures. (Burst Lightning is a 1cc red spell. Kor Sanctifiers is a 4cc white creature.)
Miracle: Counts as the Miracle cost. (Terminus is a 1cc white spell. Bonfire of the Damned is an Xcc red spell.)
Morph: Morph cost less than 3 or a variable Morph cost, it counts as 3cc. Morph cost more than 3, it counts as the Morph cost. (Willbender is a 3cc blue creature. Exalted Angel is a 4cc white creature.)
Multikicker: Counts as an X spell. (Everflowing Chalice is an Xcc artifact.)
Ninjutsu: Counts as the Ninjutsu cost. (Ninja of the Deep Hours is a 2cc blue creature.)
Suspend: Counts as the suspend cost. (Greater Gargadon is a 1cc red creature.)
Noncreature cards that that put a specific number of creatures into play, count as creatures. Noncreature cards that put a varying number of creatures into play do not count as creatures. (Sarcomancy is a 1cc black creature. Bitterblossom is a 2cc black spell.)
Cards with an alternate cost like discarding additional cards or losing life that can be played without paying any mana count as 0cc cards. (Force of Will is a 0cc blue spell.)
Cards with an delayed cost that can be cast for free now, but paid for later count as the cost that is to be paid later. (Slaughter Pact is a 3cc black spell.)
Colorless cards that are heavily aligned with a specific color (mention that color in the card text, have an ability activated with with that color of mana, or mention that specific land type) count as that color. (Shrine of Burning Rage is a red spell.)
Colorless hybrid mana counts as the lowest possible cmc. (Spectral Procession is a 3cc creature.)
Creature cards that play more like spells than creatures due to an alternate function, count as a spell with a cmc equal to the cost of the secondary ability. (Krosan Tusker is a 3cc green spell.)
Gods are enchantments, not creatures.
Spells with X in the casting cost count as X spells regardless of how variable the X can be. (Unexpectedly Absent is still an X spell, even though it can be cast with X at 0 for some value.)
I made some very small edits (mostly just deleting stuff that the alternate cost section fixes, like Delve)
IMPORTANT FOOTNOTE:
If you want to vote on a card in multiple places, you can. That means if you think Capsize is a 3cmc card as opposed to a 6cmc card, you may vote for it in the 3cmc section. You can also vote for it in both places. I’ll tally up your vote just the same. Keeping some amount of user fluidity is good for understanding where people are ranking things, and how it stacks up against other stuff.
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Based on all of the above, here’s a list of common cubeable cards:
1 cmc creatures / spells:
Terminus = white spell.
Ancestral Vision = blue spell.
Sarcomancy = black creature.
Burst Lightning = red spell.
Firebolt = red spell.
Greater Gargadon = red creature.
Vines of Vastwood = green spell.
Dismember = colorless spell.
2 cmc creatures / spells:
Eternal Dragon = white spell.
Spellskite = blue creature.
Ninja of the Deep Hours = blue creature.
Riftwing Cloudskate = blue creature.
Bitterblossom = black spell.
Shrine of Burning Rage = red spell.
Pyrewild Shaman = red spell.
Fire//Ice = multicolored spell.
Porcelain Legionnaire = colorless creature.
Signets = colorless spells. (signets get ONE spot, not 10)
3 cmc creatures / spells:
Spectral Procession = white creature.
Crystal Shard = blue spell.
Vedalken Shackles = blue spell.
Thassa, God of the Sea = blue spell.
Willbender = blue creature.
Herald of Torment = black creature.
Slaughter Pact = black spell.
Boon Satyr = green creature.
Birthing Pod = green spell.
Call of the Herd = green creature.
Krosan Tusker = green spell.
Phyrexian Metamorph = colorless creature.
4 cmc creatures / spells:
Exalted Angel = white creature.
Kor Sanctifiers = white creature.
Lashwrithe = black creature.
Purphoros, God of the Forge = red spell.
5 cmc creatures / spells:
Rout = white spell.
Pact of Negation = blue spell.
6+ cmc creatures / spells:
Capsize = blue spell.
Ashcloud Phoenix = red creature.
Rude Awakening = green spell.
0 cmc cards:
Force of Will
Daze
Fireblast
Snuff Out
Mutagenic Growth counts as a colorless card.
Mental Misstep counts as a colorless card.
Noxious Revival counts as a colorless card.
Lands:
Anything that has a mana symbol in its activation cost is played as that color. Faerie Conclave, Academy Ruins, and Shelldock Isle all count as blue lands instead of colorless. Volrath’s Stronghold is black, etc.
Kessig Wolf Run = multicolored land.
Gaea’s Cradle = colorless land.
Tolarian Academy = colorless land.
Alternate/Multiple cost cards:
ALL OF THE FOLLOWING TYPES OF SPELLS WILL BE VOTED ON IN THIS CATEGORY:
1) X spells (Bonefire of the Damned, Unexpectedly Absent, Bane of the Living, Engineered Explosives, Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, etc).
2) Delve spells (Tombstalker, Treasure Cruise, etc).
3) Split cards with different costs (Fire//Ice counts as a 2 cmc spell, but Life//Death or Far//Away will be voted on here).
These cards are difficult to classify anywhere else, so I’m just throwing them all together and we can rank them against each other here. I know it’s kind of odd to be sizing up Tombstalker vs. Bane of the Living, but these cards are significantly harder to rank other places because of their varying costs.
Conspiracies and silver-bordered cards will be the last section.
Information on:
1) How tallying up the votes work
2) Whether you should include Ancestral Recall (and other very powerful cards) if you don't play them
I'm not really sure on how I should be handling power cards, since I run an unpowered cube I have deliberately chosen to exclude cards like Ancestral Recall and Sol Ring. I'd say this means they don't go into the Top 10 cards I consider important for my cube so I don't plan to rank them. Is this violating the spirit of the project?
If it's a card you don't feel like you can accurately judge because you don't have experience with it, it seems fine to exclude it. But if you know in your heart of hearts that it's one of the best cards, you should probably include it.
But ultimately that's up to Colby. Is the idea to list the best cards or something else?
However people want to do it is fine with me.
If people don't want to include Ancestral Recall, that's fine. I figured out a way to do tallies so it won't make much of a difference one way or the other. Unless over 50% of people are not including Ancestral Recall, it won't really affect Ancestral's ranking.
I'm going to add up points like this:
#1 = 10 points
#2 = 9 points
#3 = 8 points
I'm going to add those points up for each card, then divide those cards based on how many times they were actually voted on. So, let's say 10 people vote. Ancestral Recall is voted on 5 times, each receiving the #1 spot for blue. That gives it 50 total points. I divide the 50 points by 5 (amount of times voted on) = 10 points, i.e., 1st place.
The problem I can forsee not being accounted for with this is a card like Contract From Below. Let's say 2 of those 10 people ranked Contract From below as #1. Well, based on the same metric, I'd have to place Contract From Below as #1, even though most of the votes chose to completely leave that card out. I think the majority should be represented rather than the minority. As long as half of the people have a card anywhere on their list, it will be tallied up accordingly. I can forsee this causing very few issues -- if there is the circumstance where there are not enough cards voted on by the majority to bring 10 total spots, we'll adjust things to include cards that are voted on with a plurality of votes for the lower ranked positions.
This is a really cool idea. I have one request, I'd really like to see how the community ranks hybrids, split, and fuse cards. How about making that one of the Cube Top 10s?
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
This is a really cool idea. I have one request, I'd really like to see how the community ranks hybrids, split, and fuse cards. How about making that one of the Cube Top 10s?
Each category will have 5 monocolored top 10s, a colorless top 10, and a multicolored top 10. The whole thing will take 6 weeks total.
The hybrid/split/fuse cards will probably end up in the multicolored section for each cmc. I don't know if all people in the cube community have that much experience with a ton of the split/fuse cards either. What did you have in mind for adding to things ? I'm open to suggestions.
If we're doing this by cmc, then how are we classifying the split cards? In organization, I classify them with my multicolor cards. I could see Fire/Ice being lumped with the 2cc spells, but where would you rank something like Life/Death? And what about the fuse cards? Is Far/Away a 5cc card? Seems complicated.
The more I think about it, the less I'm sure that anything terribly useful is being accomplished by coming up with Top 10 multicolor cards at any given CMC whether we're lumping hybrids, splits and fuse cards with gold cards or not. As we were ranking 1-drop creatures, I felt a bit silly ranking, say, Dryad Militant against Rakdos Cackler because they simply don't compete with each other for a slot in the cube, but rather with other cards in their respective guilds. The Power Rankings already do a great job of assessing which cards are best within each guild, and that's what I actually think about as I decide what to put in my cube's guild slots.
Also, Colby, thanks for clarifying your long term plan for the Top 10s. This probably isn't the place to rank hybrids, and there is already a thread for that. Since it looks like hybrid mana will be coming back in FRF, we'll probably be wanting to revisit the topic in the next few weeks, but not here.
I agree with Spike Rogue. It really doesn't make sense to compare GW cards to BR cards. Also I can't seem to find the original PRE project threads to compare how multicolor was handled in those votes. The link in the Great Cube Resource Thread is broken.
That doesn't mean we can't do it here, and those rankings are way outdated anyway so we might as well start from scratch. I think the most logical way to do multicolor would be to just do a top 10 for each guild. There would be some overlap with the Power Rankings, but since this is supposed to be ranking cards from a cube manager's perspective and not necessarily based on raw power/first pickability, it shouldn't be completely redundant. For simplicity's sake, I say just roll in the hybrids, splits, and fuses with the gold cards.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
* As Sarcomancy ended up as a "creature" in the first thread, how are we going to do other token spells, such as Spectral Procession or Tempt with Vengeance? They all play as "creatures".
* X spells are going to be CMC 1 or CMC 6+?
* And what about lands?
In cube organization, I slot everything in "as plays". So Spectral Procession and Call of the Herd are both in my creatures section. X spells (and other spells with variable costs like Tombstalker) should probably all be voted together. The same for color aligned lands.
In cube organization, I slot everything in "as plays". So Spectral Procession and Call of the Herd are both in my creatures section. X spells (and other spells with variable costs like Tombstalker) should probably all be voted together. The same for color aligned lands.
I agree with the spirit of what you describe. Procession and Call are "creatures" just like Sarcomancy. However, how do you classify phyrexian metamorph or Porcelain Legionnaire? I am assuming you say the phyrexian mana = the -2 life option? Does this make them all colorless? What about Exalted Angel (one of my favorite cards of all time)? Is she 3cc, 4cc for her morph, or 6cc? These questions are important for the project IMHO.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
ColbyCube, you're organizing all this, and it was your idea in the first place, so let's just have you decide. Things to consider:
CMC
* I'd like to see a 0cmc range for noncreatures. Mostly for utility lands in colors/guilds (but if you're using alternate costs, things like Snuff Out go here too), but very relevant for the Colorless section (0cmc rocks vs lands, also conspiracies etc).
* Utility Lands vs Mana-Fixing Lands: do we need to rank the usual suspects in two-color land fixing? Duals, fetches, shocks... it would be a Power Cube Rankings rehash. But two-color utilities (including manlands, Canopy) and the
* If no 0cmc range, what to do with the lands? Put them as 1cmc noncreatures, or just ignore?
* For the nonlands... even if you use the "most common costs" most people use in their cubes, some are very vague with no consensus. It's easy to determine, for example, that phyrexian mana counts or not. But what to do with delve? The cases I found in cube cards:
* Kicker and variants (multikicker, entwine, overload, Rout...)
* Delve, and more rarely Convoke
* Evoke (and if you count the Evoke cost, is it a creature or noncreature?)
* Miracle
* Suspend
* other alternative costs (Daze, Snuff Out...)
* X-Spells - those could all go as 6+cmc, IMO
* Morph
* Phyrexian Mana, 2/c hybrid
* The "untap lands" mechanic - Time Spiral, Treachery
Creature/Noncreature
* Token producers - IMO, if its effect always gives you tokens (without you losing another permanent), it should be a creature (including Bitterblossom). But if tokens are just an option, (Selesnya Charm, planeswalkers), even if the most commonly used, it's noncreature.
* Similarly for self-animating. If it can self-animate, should we consider it a creature? Or depends? Sarkhan the Dragonspeaker or Chimeric Mass, for example. - IMO, put them as noncreatures unless it's literally the only thing it can do.
** What about spells that animate other permanents? Like Nissa, Worldwaker (does other things) or a Zendikon (only does this) - IMO, they are all noncreatures.
* Gods - most are played as noncreature enchantments that sometimes you get to animate.
* Cheating and Stealing - Reanimate, Tooth and Nail, Natural Order, Treachery, Bribery. IMO, if the card works by giving you another creature card, then it won't count as a creature itself. Just a very good tutor/removal
* Evokers - see in CMC, above. If we decide to list Shriekmaw at 2cmc, should it still be considered a creature?
This is all more difficult with classification than I originally anticipated.
Let's vote on it, how should we handle this stuff?
I'll suspend tallying of votes and whatnot for the time being. Let's accept Sarcomancy as a too-late-to-change thing just for the time being.
Do we want to classify everything as played or as is? If it's as is, Kird Ape would be classified as a red creature and I think that's not as great as it would be if it were Gruul, since a mono-red deck splashing a few forests is pretty rare.
We could do as played from here on and vote on specific cards like Shriekmaw when they come up. If someone votes for Sarcomancy here, and on the 1 cmc creature thread, I could take an average of their votes. If they vote on just one or the other, I could just add it to both lists and make the lists top 11s. It wouldn't be a big deal.
I try to just play everything where it's most ideal.
- Phyrexian mana cards go into the cmc section that treats the Phyrexian mana as 2 life loss, but they are in their respective color section because ideally you want to have that color mana available to mitigate that cost.
- Morph cards go into the cost that's the most expensive for the morph cost. Willbender is a 3-drop. Without three mana, you're not playing that guy. Exalted Angel is a 4-drop. Without four mana, she's a Gray Ogre and that's not good enough. Nantuko Vigilante is a 3-drop.
- Kicker is an alternate option. Burst Lightning is a 1cc spell, not a 5cc spell. Multikicker, however, is variable, so any of these would slot into an X section. The same is said for other variable costs like Delve.
- Convoke goes in at it's normal casting cost. Stoke the Flames is my only Convoke card and it's a 4cc spell.
- Evoke also goes in at it's normal casting cost. Shriekmaw is a 5-drop with the option to be a sorcery speed Terror.
- The only Miracle cards I run are X spells, so that classification is easy for me. I don't know where I'd classify Terminus.
- Suspend is the Suspend cost. Rift Bolt is a 1cc spell. Riftwing Cloudskate is a 2cc creature.
- Alterate costs the make a card "free" to cast go into 0 cmc.
- I could see X spells getting their own section for each color. We just need to decide what qualifies as an X spell.
- The untap lands mechanic goes into their normal casting costs. Treachery is a 5cc spell.
- For tokens and token creators, anything that's basically one shot make a dude (or dudes) goes into a creature slot. Cards like Sarcomancy, Call of the Herd, and Spectral Procession are considered creatures. Permanents that spit out multiple tokens, either each turn or upon certain conditions, are that permanent type. Bitterblossom and Curse of the Shallow Graves are enchantments.
- Sarkhan Dragonspeaker and Gideon Jura are planeswalkers. They both have other functions beyond the self animation. Chimeric Mass and Chimeric Idol are colorless creatures. Becoming a creature is all they do.
- The Gods are noncreature enchantments.
- Reanimate and Control Magic are both spells. These types of cards are not creatures.
- I think the Evoke cards should definitely be considered creatures.
Do we want to classify everything as played or as is? If it's as is, Kird Ape would be classified as a red creature and I think that's not as great as it would be if it were Gruul, since a mono-red deck splashing a few forests is pretty rare.
And it's also too late for the 1cmc creatures anyway.
For Color identity and if a card is equal to another or not (functional reprints), we should use the rules and guidelines from the Power Cube Rankings. It is very clear on how "as played" works for these things. CMC is much more nebulous than that, IMO.
I mostly agree with Calibretto suggestions, but even then we get things like Kor Sanctifiers being a 3cmc creature, as the Kicker is ignored, but the whole point of the card is being kicked.
We also get Greater Gargadon as a 1cmc creature, but most people didn't vote for it as one.
For me:
* Like I said, a 0cmc range (not separated into creatures/non-creatures), that includes utility lands, 0-mana artifacts, "free" spells, and maybe Conspiracies.
* Agree with Calibretto on Phyrexian Mana (use the reduced cost), Morph (either 3 or the Morph cost, whichever is higher), Kicker (ignore; this includes Kicker-like abilities such as Entwine), Evoke (creatures, regular CMC; include the very similar Channel and Cycling/Landcycling), Suspend (suspend cost), Untap (regular cost, as you need to reach this mana count to use it!), and what's a creature or not.
** For tokens, mostly as Calibretto said, adding that it must gives you a creature without costing you another, so Pongify/Beast Within aren't considered creatures.
** But about if Sarcomancy is a creature because it produces a token right away, is Bitterblossom wasting a turn to produce the first one enough to classify it as noncreature? If it's because it keeps giving you one... if it gave you only once it would be a creature, then?
* Miracles should just go with the Miracle cost. If you are playing it, it's for the reduced cost.
* Variable additional costs (X-spells, Multikicker, Strive) go to the 6+cmc range.
* Variable reduction costs such as Delve and Convoke are ignored (so most playable Delvers go in the 6+cmc range anyway). The same for other similar effects such as Affinity, if you want to include any.
* 2/C hybrids - use the lowest cost (3cmc for all currently printed). If Pox is showing in this cost, so is Spectral Procession.
* Like I said above, Cycling and Lancycling are ignored (and don't change the card type), like Evoke. So Eternal Dragon and Krosan Tusker are 6+cmc creatures. If Eternal Dragon returned to the battlefield we could consider it similar to Morph, but that's not the case.
I would classify everything as Calibretto outlines above.
Quote from willdice »
* Like I said above, Cycling and Lancycling are ignored (and don't change the card type), like Evoke. So Eternal Dragon and Krosan Tusker are 6+cmc creatures. If Eternal Dragon returned to the battlefield we could consider it similar to Morph, but that's not the case.
I don't agree with this. Krosan Tusker is a 3cc spell. It's played that way the vast majority of the time it's used, and that's where it goes in the curve when you're deckbuilding. Likewise, Eternal Dragon is a 2 uncounterable instant dual-land tutor that can be recurred or cast as a creature in the late stages of the game. I would treat it as a 2cc instant, because again, that's how it's played most of the time, and that's where it sits in the curve when you're deckbuilding. Like Sarcomancy, just because it IS an enchantment doesn't mean it's played like an enchantment. It's played as a creature; just as Tusker is played as an instant.
I would classify everything as Calibretto outlines above.
Quote from willdice »
* Like I said above, Cycling and Lancycling are ignored (and don't change the card type), like Evoke. So Eternal Dragon and Krosan Tusker are 6+cmc creatures. If Eternal Dragon returned to the battlefield we could consider it similar to Morph, but that's not the case.
I don't agree with this. Krosan Tusker is a 3cc spell. It's played that way the vast majority of the time it's used, and that's where it goes in the curve when you're deckbuilding. Likewise, Eternal Dragon is a 2 uncounterable instant dual-land tutor that can be recurred or cast as a creature in the late stages of the game. I would treat it as a 2cc instant, because again, that's how it's played most of the time, and that's where it sits in the curve when you're deckbuilding. Like Sarcomancy, just because it IS an enchantment doesn't mean it's played like an enchantment. It's played as a creature; just as Tusker is played as an instant.
This is all true... but so is evoking Shriekmaw, and yet you agreed with having Calibretto in having it at 5cmc creature.
For Sarcomancy, we not only agreed to make a special exception to it - it became a general rule that will apply to all token producers. We need the same for evoke/cycling/typecycling/bloodrush/channel/etc effects. The whole point is having a series of rules instead of pure case-by-case analysis. It's not perfect (the 'ignore kicker' we three agreed puts Kor Sanctifiers at 3cmc; 'always kicker' puts Burst Lightning at 5cmc) but it's the best option for the project.
So, what about this?
* Cycling - if a card just have cycling, use its regular type and cost (Akroma's Vengeance is a 6cmc noncreature). If it has cycling with a secondary effect related to it, use the cycling cost as CMC and it counts as noncreature (Krosan Tusker is a 3cmc noncreature) unless it produces tokens (Decree of Justice is a X-costed creature).
This is all true... but so is evoking Shriekmaw, and yet you agreed with having Calibretto in having it at 5cmc creature.
That's because it's played as a creature a good percentage of the time. Krosan Tusker isn't.
..........
Quote from willdice »
So, what about this?
* Cycling - if a card just have cycling, use its regular type and cost (Akroma's Vengeance is a 6cmc noncreature). If it has cycling with a secondary effect related to it, use the cycling cost as CMC and it counts as noncreature (Krosan Tusker is a 3cmc noncreature) unless it produces tokens (Decree of Justice is a X-costed creature).
This is a good idea. I would count Vengeance at 6, but Tusker as a 3cc spell.
I mostly agree with Calibretto suggestions, but even then we get things like Kor Sanctifiers being a 3cmc creature, as the Kicker is ignored, but the whole point of the card is being kicked.
We may have found the loophole. Creatures with Kicker, I would rank with the Kicker cost included. Most of the time these creatures are rarely cast without the added cost. Kor Sanctifiers is also the only Kicker creature that's commonly played. I've cut it now, but when I ran it, I put it in my 4cc section.
I also agree that Krosan Tusker and Eternal Dragon should not count as 6+cc creatures as that's not how they play. This is especially the case for Tusker.
There's no need to make this too complicated. It's fairly easy to recognize how certain cards might play differently in practice than what's written on the card. There's also only a handful of cards in the cube that end up being classified somewhere other than their printed version/cost.
Okay, so can someone organize a set of cards that need to be organized differently? Once we get that list up, we can move on to the next set.
As mentioned, I don't think the list will be very long, but it'll be nice for me to have when I'm creating a new thread for votes -- so I can list what we're classifying certain things as when I put up the thread for everyone.
Here are the cards that I'm currently running at 550 that I have sorted somewhere other than their actual color identity, card type, or casting cost based on them playing differently. They may be more possibilities, but I'm not running those cards. This is a good starting place though.
Porcelain Legionnaire (white or artifact? 2 or 3?)
Spectral Procession (creature or noncreature? 3 or 6 or X?)
Exalted Angel (3 or 4 or 6)
Eternal Dragon (creature or spell? 2 or 7?)
Spellskite (blue or artifact?)
Phyrexian Metamorph (blue or artifact? 3 or 4?)
Daze (0 or 2?)
Force of Will (0 or 5?)
Crystal Shard (blue or artifact?)
Thassa, God of the Sea (enchantment or creature?)
Vedalken Shackles (blue or artifact?)
Dig Through Time (8 or X?)
Faerie Conclave (blue or land?)
Shelldock Isle (blue or land?)
Sarcomancy (creature or enchantment?)
Tombstalker (8 or X?)
Snuff Out (0 or 4?)
Dismember (1 or 3?)
Volrath's Stronghold (black or land?)
Greater Gargadon (1 or 10?)
Shrine of Burning Rage (red or artifact?)
Purphoros, God of the Forge (enchantment or creature?)
Call of the Herd (creature or sorcery?)
Birthing Pod (green or artifact? 3 or 4?)
Tooth and Nail (7 or 9?)
Treetop Village (green or land?)
I'm adding some in Calibretto's list. There are many others I'd also put in, but they'd be variations of the same thing (like other phyrexian mana cards or morph creatures, etc).
I changed a little by using the actual categories (7 or plus goes as 6+, creatures vs spells, 'artifact' is 'colorless'; X and 'land' would be new categories if approved). Cut Tooth and Nail as it is 6+ either way, put Rude Awakening instead.
Porcelain Legionnaire (white or colorless? 2 or 3?)
Spectral Procession (creature or spell? 3 or 6+ or X?)
Exalted Angel (3 or 4 or 6+)
Eternal Dragon (creature or spell? 2 or 6+?)
Terminus (1 or 6+?)
Kor Sanctifiers (3 or 4?)
Rout (5 or 7?)
Unexpectedly Absent (2 or 6+ or X?)
Spellskite (blue or colorless?)
Phyrexian Metamorph (blue or colorless? 3 or 4?)
Daze (0 or 2?)
Force of Will (0 or 5?)
Crystal Shard (blue or colorless?)
Thassa, God of the Sea (spell or creature?)
Vedalken Shackles (blue or colorless?)
Dig Through Time (6+ or X?)
Faerie Conclave (blue or colorless or land?)
Shelldock Isle (blue or colorless or land?)
Ninja of the Deep Hours (2 or 4?)
Capsize (3 or 6+?)
Sarcomancy (creature or spell?)
Tombstalker (6+ or X?)
Snuff Out (0 or 4?)
Dismember (1 or 3?)
Volrath's Stronghold (black or land or colorless?)
Herald of Torment (creature or spell? 3 or 5?)
Lashwrithe (colorless or black? creature or spell?)
Bane of the Living (3 or 4 or 6+ or X?)
Slaughter Pact (0 or 5?)
Greater Gargadon (1 or 6+?)
Shrine of Burning Rage (red or colorless?)
Purphoros, God of the Forge (spell or creature?)
Fireblast (0 or 6+?)
Pyrewild Shaman (creature or spell? 3 or 2?)
Ashcloud Phoenix (3 or 4 or 6+?)
Call of the Herd (creature or spell?)
Birthing Pod (green or colorless? 3 or 4?)
Treetop Village (green or land or colorless?)
Vines of Vastwood (1 or 2?)
Krosan Tusker (creature or spell? 3 or 7?)
Gaea's Cradle (green or colorless or land?)
Rude Awakening (5 or 6+?)
Batterskull (creature or spell?)
Engineered Explosives (5 or 6+ or X?)
Far // Away (2 or 3 or 5?)
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden (2 or 6+ or X?)
Kessig Wolf Run (multicolored or colorless or land?)
Conspiracies in general (colorless or separated list or not included?)
Two-Color Mana Fixing Lands - duals, fetches, shocks... (included or not? multicolored or colorless or land? each separated or grouped by cycle?)
Generic Mana Fixing Lands - city of brass, evolving wilds.... (included or not? multicolored or colorless or land?)
Signets (separated or as a single group? colorless or multicolored?)
Okay, here's how I'm planning on organizing them, let me know if you guys severely object)
Porcelain Legionnaire (white or colorless? 2 or 3?)
Colorless @ 2 because every aggro deck would be fine playing this, I think classifying this as a white card gives us overall less voting options since there are a lot more white guys @ 2 than colorless.
If something fits better into a section where we have less of them, my default would be for classifying them as that option.
Spectral Procession (creature or spell? 3 or 6+ or X?)
I think with stuff like this, I'd rather default to calling it a creature since it does produce creatures and that's its only function -- I'll tally up the votes with Sarcomancy as a 1 drop spell and we'll learn from this in the future.
Exalted Angel (3 or 4 or 6+)
I think this should be classified as a morph creature at 3.
Eternal Dragon (creature or spell? 2 or 6+?)
I think this is a spell at 2 most of the time.
Terminus (1 or 6+?)
I think miracle cost should have preference, so I'll list this in the 1 drop category.
Kor Sanctifiers (3 or 4?)
Without kicker, no one would play this card. I think we should classify stuff as their kicker & miracle costs, since that's really what we want to be doing.
Rout (5 or 7?)
I'm not sure what to do here -- I think classifying it as 5 is what most people would rather do.
Unexpectedly Absent (2 or 6+ or X?)
I think some spells are best to have an extra category:
What do you guys think about having a special voting section for cards that play at multiple costs?
This would have two major things in it: Alternate cost cards (daze, force of will, mutagenic growth, delve spells) and x spells (Unexpectedly Absent, Repeal, Earthquake, etc). I think each color would have enough to make the rankings interesting.
Spellskite (blue or colorless?)
colorless I think makes the most sense
Phyrexian Metamorph (blue or colorless? 3 or 4?)
colorless @ 3 makes the most sense I think
Daze (0 or 2?)
alternate cost card
Force of Will (0 or 5?)
Aforementioned, alternate cost / 0 cmc / x spell category etc would be best place for this. We can do that at the end.
Crystal Shard (blue or colorless?)
I think the only real reason to play this is if it's blue, it's a huge incentive and makes the most sense as a blue card.
Thassa, God of the Sea (spell or creature?)
I think this serves a spell role most of the time
Vedalken Shackles (blue or colorless?)
100% definitely blue
Dig Through Time (6+ or X?)
I think this would be good in alternate cost section.
Faerie Conclave (blue or colorless or land?)
this should be classified as blue definitely (not gonna play it in your deck without blue mana). I could also have a 0cmc/land section as well to cover this stuff.
Shelldock Isle (blue or colorless or land?)
Blue, land.
Ninja of the Deep Hours (2 or 4?)
I think this should be a 2cmc creature
Capsize (3 or 6+?)
probably takes a 6+ slot, since that's what we're really hoping for. The three slot for blue spells is more exciting anyway.
Sarcomancy (creature or spell?)
I would like to do this as a creature, but we're already over that point. There are less great black spells at 1 cmc too, so this might actually be best.
Tombstalker (6+ or X?)
Alternate cost section.
Snuff Out (0 or 4?)
Alternate cost section.
Dismember (1 or 3?)
Alternate cost black card.
Each of these sections will have top 10s in each color, so Snuff Out, Dismember, and Tombstalker will be competing against each other which doesn't make a ridiculous amount of sense, but it's still more all-inclusive than doing it another way, I think.
Volrath's Stronghold (black or land or colorless?)
Definitely black, definitely land.
Herald of Torment (creature or spell? 3 or 5?)
This guy can go at either alternate cost or 3cmc. I think he fits better as 3cmc.
Lashwrithe (colorless or black? creature or spell?)
I'd put this as a black creature.
Bane of the Living (3 or 4 or 6+ or X?)
3cmc black creature
Slaughter Pact (0 or 5?)
alternate cost black card
Greater Gargadon (1 or 6+?)
6+ cmc red creature, since it doesn't really play as a one drop IMO
Shrine of Burning Rage (red or colorless?)
red two drop spell
Purphoros, God of the Forge (spell or creature?)
red four drop spell
Fireblast (0 or 6+?)
alternate cost red card
Pyrewild Shaman (creature or spell? 3 or 2?)
I think this guy is mostly in there to be a spell instead of a creature, so probably 2cmc red spell
Ashcloud Phoenix (3 or 4 or 6+?)
Morph at 3 cmc I think will be the norm
Call of the Herd (creature or spell?)
Creature at 3 cmc
Birthing Pod (green or colorless? 3 or 4?)
I think because of the cost and activation this should be green spell @ 3 cmc
Treetop Village (green or land or colorless?)
green land
Vines of Vastwood (1 or 2?)
green spell @ 1cmc
Krosan Tusker (creature or spell? 3 or 7?)
green spell @ 3 cmc
Gaea's Cradle (green or colorless or land?)
colorless land, I don't think you have to be green to play this land effectively
Rude Awakening (5 or 6+?)
rude awakening is really best at 6+ and it's a corner case when it's played for only one mode IMO
Batterskull (creature or spell?)
Creature imo, it puts a creature onto the battlefield after all.
Engineered Explosives (5 or 6+ or X?)
alternate cost / x spell section for sure
Far // Away (2 or 3 or 5?)
alternate cost section
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden (2 or 6+ or X?)
I think this guy is also good in the alternate cost section.
Kessig Wolf Run (multicolored or colorless or land?)
guild land
Conspiracies in general (colorless or separated list or not included?)
I'll do a separate list for this.
Two-Color Mana Fixing Lands - duals, fetches, shocks... (included or not? multicolored or colorless or land? each separated or grouped by cycle?)
Generic Mana Fixing Lands - city of brass, evolving wilds.... (included or not? multicolored or colorless or land?)
Signets (separated or as a single group? colorless or multicolored?)
I'll add a land section.
So to recap, here's what the new classification posts will look like:
Miracle cards are classified as their miracle cost (in the case of X spell miracles, these will be in the alternate cost section)
Kicker cards are classified as with their kicker included (Kor Sanctifiers is a 4cmc card)
The alternate cost voting will have these cards in it: x-spells, split cards, delve, cards that can be played at multiple costs such as force of will, and some phyrexian mana cards.
Please help us by voting on the current poll below:
CURRENT POLL:
3 CMC CARDS
Past poll threads:
1 CMC CREATURES (can still be voted on)
1 CMC SPELLS
2 CMC CARDS
RESULTS:
1. Swords to Plowshares (9.25)
2. Land Tax (9.00)
3. Path to Exile (8.13)
4. Enlightened Tutor (7.75)
5. Mana Tithe (5.75)
6. Terminus (5.38)
7. Condemn (4.33)
8. Sunlance (3.00)
9. Oust (2.00)
10. Harm’s Way (2.00) [PLURALITY]
Blue:
1. Ancestral Recall (10.0)
2. Mystical Tutor (8.38)
3. Ponder (7.38)
4. Preordain (7.00)
5. Brainstorm (6.50)
6. Force Spike (5.50)
7. Ancestral Vision (4.71)
8. Personal Tutor (3.4)
9. Serum Visions (2.75)
10. Vapor Snag (2.67) [PLURALITY]
Black:
1. Vampiric Tutor (10.0)
2. Imperial Seal (8.00)
3. Thoughtseize (7.50)
4. Reanimate (7.13)
5. Duress (5.38)
6. Entomb (5.33)
7. Dark Ritual (5.00)
8. Inquisition of Kozilek (4.14)
9. Unearth (3.00) [PLURALITY]
10. Tragic Slip (1.67) [PLURALITY]
Red:
1. Lightning Bolt (10.0)
2. Chain Lightning (8.75)
3. Faithless Looting (7.88)
4. Burst Lightning (6.25)
5. Firebolt (6.13)
6. Firestorm (6.00)
7. Forked Bolt (3.83)
8. Flame Slash (3.00)
9. Reckless Charge (2.33)
10. Gamble (4.50) [PLURALITY]
Green:
1. Rancor (9.13)
2. Worldly Tutor (8.50)
3. Fastbond (7.86)
4. Vines of Vastwood (6.00)
5. Utopia Sprawl (5.00)
6. Berserk (4.50)
7. Search For Tomorrow (4.20)
8. Wild Growth (3.50)
9. Sylvan Tutor (7.00) [PLURALITY]
10. Nature's Claim (6.00) [PLURALITY]
Multicolored:
1. Chained to the Rocks (10.0) [PLURALITY]
2. Edge of the Divinity [PLURALITY]
3. Safewright Quest [PLURALITY]
Colorless:
1. Sol Ring (10.0)
2. Skullclamp (8.75)
3. Mana Vault (8.43)
4. Sensei’s Divining Top (6.29)
5. Dismember (5.75)
6. Pithing Needle (5.00)
6. Bonesplitter (5.00)
8. Cursed Scroll (4.13)
9. Black Vise (2.14)
10. Trusty Machete (2.34) [PLURALITY]
Flawless Victory! Ancestral Recall, Vampiric Tutor, Lightning Bolt, and Sol Ring all received perfect scores from voters that included them.
Dissenting Opinion! Chained to the Rocks also received a perfect score, but was voted on by a plurality of voters. Sylvan Tutor received an average score of 7.00, but was only included by 37.5% of voters.
Manic Depression! Bonesplitter had the greatest spread in rankings, from #2 to #9.
Just Missed! Aether Vial (2.00), Careful Study (1.67), Rift Bolt (3.00), and Exploration (5.00) had enough votes to make it onto the list via plurality, but were defeated by Trusty Machete, Vapor Snag, Gamble, and Nature's Claim respectively.
Special thanks to our voters: willdice, LucidVision, Ennex, wtwlf123, Spike Rogue, calibretto, Dr. Tom, ColbyCube
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Rules for our classification system here:
Bloodrush: Counts as the Bloodrush cost. (Pyrewild Shaman is a 2cc red spell.)
Buyback: If the Buyback cost is a mana cost, that cost is included. (Capsize is a 6cc blue spell. Forbid is still a 3cc blue spell.)
Entwine: Counts with the Entwine cost included. (Tooth and Nail is a 9cc green spell.)
Kicker: Ignored on spells. Included on creatures. (Burst Lightning is a 1cc red spell. Kor Sanctifiers is a 4cc white creature.)
Miracle: Counts as the Miracle cost. (Terminus is a 1cc white spell. Bonfire of the Damned is an Xcc red spell.)
Morph: Morph cost less than 3 or a variable Morph cost, it counts as 3cc. Morph cost more than 3, it counts as the Morph cost. (Willbender is a 3cc blue creature. Exalted Angel is a 4cc white creature.)
Multikicker: Counts as an X spell. (Everflowing Chalice is an Xcc artifact.)
Ninjutsu: Counts as the Ninjutsu cost. (Ninja of the Deep Hours is a 2cc blue creature.)
Suspend: Counts as the suspend cost. (Greater Gargadon is a 1cc red creature.)
Noncreature cards that that put a specific number of creatures into play, count as creatures. Noncreature cards that put a varying number of creatures into play do not count as creatures. (Sarcomancy is a 1cc black creature. Bitterblossom is a 2cc black spell.)
Cards with an alternate cost like discarding additional cards or losing life that can be played without paying any mana count as 0cc cards. (Force of Will is a 0cc blue spell.)
Cards with an delayed cost that can be cast for free now, but paid for later count as the cost that is to be paid later. (Slaughter Pact is a 3cc black spell.)
Colorless cards that are heavily aligned with a specific color (mention that color in the card text, have an ability activated with with that color of mana, or mention that specific land type) count as that color. (Shrine of Burning Rage is a red spell.)
Colorless hybrid mana counts as the lowest possible cmc. (Spectral Procession is a 3cc creature.)
Creature cards that play more like spells than creatures due to an alternate function, count as a spell with a cmc equal to the cost of the secondary ability. (Krosan Tusker is a 3cc green spell.)
Gods are enchantments, not creatures.
Spells with X in the casting cost count as X spells regardless of how variable the X can be. (Unexpectedly Absent is still an X spell, even though it can be cast with X at 0 for some value.)
I made some very small edits (mostly just deleting stuff that the alternate cost section fixes, like Delve)
If you want to vote on a card in multiple places, you can. That means if you think Capsize is a 3cmc card as opposed to a 6cmc card, you may vote for it in the 3cmc section. You can also vote for it in both places. I’ll tally up your vote just the same. Keeping some amount of user fluidity is good for understanding where people are ranking things, and how it stacks up against other stuff.
-------
Based on all of the above, here’s a list of common cubeable cards:
1 cmc creatures / spells:
Terminus = white spell.
Ancestral Vision = blue spell.
Sarcomancy = black creature.
Burst Lightning = red spell.
Firebolt = red spell.
Greater Gargadon = red creature.
Vines of Vastwood = green spell.
Dismember = colorless spell.
2 cmc creatures / spells:
Eternal Dragon = white spell.
Spellskite = blue creature.
Ninja of the Deep Hours = blue creature.
Riftwing Cloudskate = blue creature.
Bitterblossom = black spell.
Shrine of Burning Rage = red spell.
Pyrewild Shaman = red spell.
Fire//Ice = multicolored spell.
Porcelain Legionnaire = colorless creature.
Signets = colorless spells. (signets get ONE spot, not 10)
3 cmc creatures / spells:
Spectral Procession = white creature.
Crystal Shard = blue spell.
Vedalken Shackles = blue spell.
Thassa, God of the Sea = blue spell.
Willbender = blue creature.
Herald of Torment = black creature.
Slaughter Pact = black spell.
Boon Satyr = green creature.
Birthing Pod = green spell.
Call of the Herd = green creature.
Krosan Tusker = green spell.
Phyrexian Metamorph = colorless creature.
4 cmc creatures / spells:
Exalted Angel = white creature.
Kor Sanctifiers = white creature.
Lashwrithe = black creature.
Purphoros, God of the Forge = red spell.
5 cmc creatures / spells:
Rout = white spell.
Pact of Negation = blue spell.
6+ cmc creatures / spells:
Capsize = blue spell.
Ashcloud Phoenix = red creature.
Rude Awakening = green spell.
0 cmc cards:
Force of Will
Daze
Fireblast
Snuff Out
Mutagenic Growth counts as a colorless card.
Mental Misstep counts as a colorless card.
Noxious Revival counts as a colorless card.
Lands:
Anything that has a mana symbol in its activation cost is played as that color. Faerie Conclave, Academy Ruins, and Shelldock Isle all count as blue lands instead of colorless. Volrath’s Stronghold is black, etc.
Kessig Wolf Run = multicolored land.
Gaea’s Cradle = colorless land.
Tolarian Academy = colorless land.
Alternate/Multiple cost cards:
ALL OF THE FOLLOWING TYPES OF SPELLS WILL BE VOTED ON IN THIS CATEGORY:
1) X spells (Bonefire of the Damned, Unexpectedly Absent, Bane of the Living, Engineered Explosives, Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, etc).
2) Delve spells (Tombstalker, Treasure Cruise, etc).
3) Split cards with different costs (Fire//Ice counts as a 2 cmc spell, but Life//Death or Far//Away will be voted on here).
These cards are difficult to classify anywhere else, so I’m just throwing them all together and we can rank them against each other here. I know it’s kind of odd to be sizing up Tombstalker vs. Bane of the Living, but these cards are significantly harder to rank other places because of their varying costs.
Conspiracies and silver-bordered cards will be the last section.
Information on:
1) How tallying up the votes work
2) Whether you should include Ancestral Recall (and other very powerful cards) if you don't play them
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
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I plan on doing it like this:
1cmc creatures / 1cmc spells
2cmc creatures / 2cmc spells
3cmc creatures / 3cmc spells
4cmc creatures / 4cmc spells
5cmc creatures / 5cmc spells
6+cmc creatures / 6+cmc spells
Each category will have 5 monocolored top 10s, a colorless top 10, and a multicolored top 10. The whole thing will take 6 weeks total.
The hybrid/split/fuse cards will probably end up in the multicolored section for each cmc. I don't know if all people in the cube community have that much experience with a ton of the split/fuse cards either. What did you have in mind for adding to things ? I'm open to suggestions.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
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Also, Colby, thanks for clarifying your long term plan for the Top 10s. This probably isn't the place to rank hybrids, and there is already a thread for that. Since it looks like hybrid mana will be coming back in FRF, we'll probably be wanting to revisit the topic in the next few weeks, but not here.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
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450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
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450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
* As Sarcomancy ended up as a "creature" in the first thread, how are we going to do other token spells, such as Spectral Procession or Tempt with Vengeance? They all play as "creatures".
* X spells are going to be CMC 1 or CMC 6+?
* And what about lands?
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I agree with the spirit of what you describe. Procession and Call are "creatures" just like Sarcomancy. However, how do you classify phyrexian metamorph or Porcelain Legionnaire? I am assuming you say the phyrexian mana = the -2 life option? Does this make them all colorless? What about Exalted Angel (one of my favorite cards of all time)? Is she 3cc, 4cc for her morph, or 6cc? These questions are important for the project IMHO.
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CMC
* I'd like to see a 0cmc range for noncreatures. Mostly for utility lands in colors/guilds (but if you're using alternate costs, things like Snuff Out go here too), but very relevant for the Colorless section (0cmc rocks vs lands, also conspiracies etc).
* Utility Lands vs Mana-Fixing Lands: do we need to rank the usual suspects in two-color land fixing? Duals, fetches, shocks... it would be a Power Cube Rankings rehash. But two-color utilities (including manlands, Canopy) and the
* If no 0cmc range, what to do with the lands? Put them as 1cmc noncreatures, or just ignore?
* For the nonlands... even if you use the "most common costs" most people use in their cubes, some are very vague with no consensus. It's easy to determine, for example, that phyrexian mana counts or not. But what to do with delve? The cases I found in cube cards:
* Kicker and variants (multikicker, entwine, overload, Rout...)
* Delve, and more rarely Convoke
* Evoke (and if you count the Evoke cost, is it a creature or noncreature?)
* Miracle
* Suspend
* other alternative costs (Daze, Snuff Out...)
* X-Spells - those could all go as 6+cmc, IMO
* Morph
* Phyrexian Mana, 2/c hybrid
* The "untap lands" mechanic - Time Spiral, Treachery
Creature/Noncreature
* Token producers - IMO, if its effect always gives you tokens (without you losing another permanent), it should be a creature (including Bitterblossom). But if tokens are just an option, (Selesnya Charm, planeswalkers), even if the most commonly used, it's noncreature.
* Similarly for self-animating. If it can self-animate, should we consider it a creature? Or depends? Sarkhan the Dragonspeaker or Chimeric Mass, for example. - IMO, put them as noncreatures unless it's literally the only thing it can do.
** What about spells that animate other permanents? Like Nissa, Worldwaker (does other things) or a Zendikon (only does this) - IMO, they are all noncreatures.
* Gods - most are played as noncreature enchantments that sometimes you get to animate.
* Cheating and Stealing - Reanimate, Tooth and Nail, Natural Order, Treachery, Bribery. IMO, if the card works by giving you another creature card, then it won't count as a creature itself. Just a very good tutor/removal
* Evokers - see in CMC, above. If we decide to list Shriekmaw at 2cmc, should it still be considered a creature?
Let's vote on it, how should we handle this stuff?
I'll suspend tallying of votes and whatnot for the time being. Let's accept Sarcomancy as a too-late-to-change thing just for the time being.
Do we want to classify everything as played or as is? If it's as is, Kird Ape would be classified as a red creature and I think that's not as great as it would be if it were Gruul, since a mono-red deck splashing a few forests is pretty rare.
We could do as played from here on and vote on specific cards like Shriekmaw when they come up. If someone votes for Sarcomancy here, and on the 1 cmc creature thread, I could take an average of their votes. If they vote on just one or the other, I could just add it to both lists and make the lists top 11s. It wouldn't be a big deal.
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- Phyrexian mana cards go into the cmc section that treats the Phyrexian mana as 2 life loss, but they are in their respective color section because ideally you want to have that color mana available to mitigate that cost.
- Morph cards go into the cost that's the most expensive for the morph cost. Willbender is a 3-drop. Without three mana, you're not playing that guy. Exalted Angel is a 4-drop. Without four mana, she's a Gray Ogre and that's not good enough. Nantuko Vigilante is a 3-drop.
- Kicker is an alternate option. Burst Lightning is a 1cc spell, not a 5cc spell. Multikicker, however, is variable, so any of these would slot into an X section. The same is said for other variable costs like Delve.
- Convoke goes in at it's normal casting cost. Stoke the Flames is my only Convoke card and it's a 4cc spell.
- Evoke also goes in at it's normal casting cost. Shriekmaw is a 5-drop with the option to be a sorcery speed Terror.
- The only Miracle cards I run are X spells, so that classification is easy for me. I don't know where I'd classify Terminus.
- Suspend is the Suspend cost. Rift Bolt is a 1cc spell. Riftwing Cloudskate is a 2cc creature.
- Alterate costs the make a card "free" to cast go into 0 cmc.
- I could see X spells getting their own section for each color. We just need to decide what qualifies as an X spell.
- The untap lands mechanic goes into their normal casting costs. Treachery is a 5cc spell.
- For tokens and token creators, anything that's basically one shot make a dude (or dudes) goes into a creature slot. Cards like Sarcomancy, Call of the Herd, and Spectral Procession are considered creatures. Permanents that spit out multiple tokens, either each turn or upon certain conditions, are that permanent type. Bitterblossom and Curse of the Shallow Graves are enchantments.
- Sarkhan Dragonspeaker and Gideon Jura are planeswalkers. They both have other functions beyond the self animation. Chimeric Mass and Chimeric Idol are colorless creatures. Becoming a creature is all they do.
- The Gods are noncreature enchantments.
- Reanimate and Control Magic are both spells. These types of cards are not creatures.
- I think the Evoke cards should definitely be considered creatures.
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And it's also too late for the 1cmc creatures anyway.
For Color identity and if a card is equal to another or not (functional reprints), we should use the rules and guidelines from the Power Cube Rankings. It is very clear on how "as played" works for these things. CMC is much more nebulous than that, IMO.
I mostly agree with Calibretto suggestions, but even then we get things like Kor Sanctifiers being a 3cmc creature, as the Kicker is ignored, but the whole point of the card is being kicked.
We also get Greater Gargadon as a 1cmc creature, but most people didn't vote for it as one.
For me:
* Like I said, a 0cmc range (not separated into creatures/non-creatures), that includes utility lands, 0-mana artifacts, "free" spells, and maybe Conspiracies.
* Agree with Calibretto on Phyrexian Mana (use the reduced cost), Morph (either 3 or the Morph cost, whichever is higher), Kicker (ignore; this includes Kicker-like abilities such as Entwine), Evoke (creatures, regular CMC; include the very similar Channel and Cycling/Landcycling), Suspend (suspend cost), Untap (regular cost, as you need to reach this mana count to use it!), and what's a creature or not.
** For tokens, mostly as Calibretto said, adding that it must gives you a creature without costing you another, so Pongify/Beast Within aren't considered creatures.
** But about if Sarcomancy is a creature because it produces a token right away, is Bitterblossom wasting a turn to produce the first one enough to classify it as noncreature? If it's because it keeps giving you one... if it gave you only once it would be a creature, then?
* Miracles should just go with the Miracle cost. If you are playing it, it's for the reduced cost.
* Variable additional costs (X-spells, Multikicker, Strive) go to the 6+cmc range.
* Variable reduction costs such as Delve and Convoke are ignored (so most playable Delvers go in the 6+cmc range anyway). The same for other similar effects such as Affinity, if you want to include any.
* 2/C hybrids - use the lowest cost (3cmc for all currently printed). If Pox is showing in this cost, so is Spectral Procession.
* Like I said above, Cycling and Lancycling are ignored (and don't change the card type), like Evoke. So Eternal Dragon and Krosan Tusker are 6+cmc creatures. If Eternal Dragon returned to the battlefield we could consider it similar to Morph, but that's not the case.
I don't agree with this. Krosan Tusker is a 3cc spell. It's played that way the vast majority of the time it's used, and that's where it goes in the curve when you're deckbuilding. Likewise, Eternal Dragon is a 2 uncounterable instant dual-land tutor that can be recurred or cast as a creature in the late stages of the game. I would treat it as a 2cc instant, because again, that's how it's played most of the time, and that's where it sits in the curve when you're deckbuilding. Like Sarcomancy, just because it IS an enchantment doesn't mean it's played like an enchantment. It's played as a creature; just as Tusker is played as an instant.
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This is all true... but so is evoking Shriekmaw, and yet you agreed with having Calibretto in having it at 5cmc creature.
For Sarcomancy, we not only agreed to make a special exception to it - it became a general rule that will apply to all token producers. We need the same for evoke/cycling/typecycling/bloodrush/channel/etc effects. The whole point is having a series of rules instead of pure case-by-case analysis. It's not perfect (the 'ignore kicker' we three agreed puts Kor Sanctifiers at 3cmc; 'always kicker' puts Burst Lightning at 5cmc) but it's the best option for the project.
So, what about this?
* Cycling - if a card just have cycling, use its regular type and cost (Akroma's Vengeance is a 6cmc noncreature). If it has cycling with a secondary effect related to it, use the cycling cost as CMC and it counts as noncreature (Krosan Tusker is a 3cmc noncreature) unless it produces tokens (Decree of Justice is a X-costed creature).
That's because it's played as a creature a good percentage of the time. Krosan Tusker isn't.
..........
This is a good idea. I would count Vengeance at 6, but Tusker as a 3cc spell.
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My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
We may have found the loophole. Creatures with Kicker, I would rank with the Kicker cost included. Most of the time these creatures are rarely cast without the added cost. Kor Sanctifiers is also the only Kicker creature that's commonly played. I've cut it now, but when I ran it, I put it in my 4cc section.
I also agree that Krosan Tusker and Eternal Dragon should not count as 6+cc creatures as that's not how they play. This is especially the case for Tusker.
There's no need to make this too complicated. It's fairly easy to recognize how certain cards might play differently in practice than what's written on the card. There's also only a handful of cards in the cube that end up being classified somewhere other than their printed version/cost.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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As mentioned, I don't think the list will be very long, but it'll be nice for me to have when I'm creating a new thread for votes -- so I can list what we're classifying certain things as when I put up the thread for everyone.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Porcelain Legionnaire (white or artifact? 2 or 3?)
Spectral Procession (creature or noncreature? 3 or 6 or X?)
Exalted Angel (3 or 4 or 6)
Eternal Dragon (creature or spell? 2 or 7?)
Spellskite (blue or artifact?)
Phyrexian Metamorph (blue or artifact? 3 or 4?)
Daze (0 or 2?)
Force of Will (0 or 5?)
Crystal Shard (blue or artifact?)
Thassa, God of the Sea (enchantment or creature?)
Vedalken Shackles (blue or artifact?)
Dig Through Time (8 or X?)
Faerie Conclave (blue or land?)
Shelldock Isle (blue or land?)
Sarcomancy (creature or enchantment?)
Tombstalker (8 or X?)
Snuff Out (0 or 4?)
Dismember (1 or 3?)
Volrath's Stronghold (black or land?)
Greater Gargadon (1 or 10?)
Shrine of Burning Rage (red or artifact?)
Purphoros, God of the Forge (enchantment or creature?)
Call of the Herd (creature or sorcery?)
Birthing Pod (green or artifact? 3 or 4?)
Tooth and Nail (7 or 9?)
Treetop Village (green or land?)
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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I changed a little by using the actual categories (7 or plus goes as 6+, creatures vs spells, 'artifact' is 'colorless'; X and 'land' would be new categories if approved). Cut Tooth and Nail as it is 6+ either way, put Rude Awakening instead.
Porcelain Legionnaire (white or colorless? 2 or 3?)
Spectral Procession (creature or spell? 3 or 6+ or X?)
Exalted Angel (3 or 4 or 6+)
Eternal Dragon (creature or spell? 2 or 6+?)
Terminus (1 or 6+?)
Kor Sanctifiers (3 or 4?)
Rout (5 or 7?)
Unexpectedly Absent (2 or 6+ or X?)
Spellskite (blue or colorless?)
Phyrexian Metamorph (blue or colorless? 3 or 4?)
Daze (0 or 2?)
Force of Will (0 or 5?)
Crystal Shard (blue or colorless?)
Thassa, God of the Sea (spell or creature?)
Vedalken Shackles (blue or colorless?)
Dig Through Time (6+ or X?)
Faerie Conclave (blue or colorless or land?)
Shelldock Isle (blue or colorless or land?)
Ninja of the Deep Hours (2 or 4?)
Capsize (3 or 6+?)
Sarcomancy (creature or spell?)
Tombstalker (6+ or X?)
Snuff Out (0 or 4?)
Dismember (1 or 3?)
Volrath's Stronghold (black or land or colorless?)
Herald of Torment (creature or spell? 3 or 5?)
Lashwrithe (colorless or black? creature or spell?)
Bane of the Living (3 or 4 or 6+ or X?)
Slaughter Pact (0 or 5?)
Greater Gargadon (1 or 6+?)
Shrine of Burning Rage (red or colorless?)
Purphoros, God of the Forge (spell or creature?)
Fireblast (0 or 6+?)
Pyrewild Shaman (creature or spell? 3 or 2?)
Ashcloud Phoenix (3 or 4 or 6+?)
Call of the Herd (creature or spell?)
Birthing Pod (green or colorless? 3 or 4?)
Treetop Village (green or land or colorless?)
Vines of Vastwood (1 or 2?)
Krosan Tusker (creature or spell? 3 or 7?)
Gaea's Cradle (green or colorless or land?)
Rude Awakening (5 or 6+?)
Batterskull (creature or spell?)
Engineered Explosives (5 or 6+ or X?)
Far // Away (2 or 3 or 5?)
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden (2 or 6+ or X?)
Kessig Wolf Run (multicolored or colorless or land?)
Conspiracies in general (colorless or separated list or not included?)
Two-Color Mana Fixing Lands - duals, fetches, shocks... (included or not? multicolored or colorless or land? each separated or grouped by cycle?)
Generic Mana Fixing Lands - city of brass, evolving wilds.... (included or not? multicolored or colorless or land?)
Signets (separated or as a single group? colorless or multicolored?)
Porcelain Legionnaire (white or colorless? 2 or 3?)
Colorless @ 2 because every aggro deck would be fine playing this, I think classifying this as a white card gives us overall less voting options since there are a lot more white guys @ 2 than colorless.
If something fits better into a section where we have less of them, my default would be for classifying them as that option.
Spectral Procession (creature or spell? 3 or 6+ or X?)
I think with stuff like this, I'd rather default to calling it a creature since it does produce creatures and that's its only function -- I'll tally up the votes with Sarcomancy as a 1 drop spell and we'll learn from this in the future.
Exalted Angel (3 or 4 or 6+)
I think this should be classified as a morph creature at 3.
Eternal Dragon (creature or spell? 2 or 6+?)
I think this is a spell at 2 most of the time.
Terminus (1 or 6+?)
I think miracle cost should have preference, so I'll list this in the 1 drop category.
Kor Sanctifiers (3 or 4?)
Without kicker, no one would play this card. I think we should classify stuff as their kicker & miracle costs, since that's really what we want to be doing.
Rout (5 or 7?)
I'm not sure what to do here -- I think classifying it as 5 is what most people would rather do.
Unexpectedly Absent (2 or 6+ or X?)
I think some spells are best to have an extra category:
What do you guys think about having a special voting section for cards that play at multiple costs?
This would have two major things in it: Alternate cost cards (daze, force of will, mutagenic growth, delve spells) and x spells (Unexpectedly Absent, Repeal, Earthquake, etc). I think each color would have enough to make the rankings interesting.
Spellskite (blue or colorless?)
colorless I think makes the most sense
Phyrexian Metamorph (blue or colorless? 3 or 4?)
colorless @ 3 makes the most sense I think
Daze (0 or 2?)
alternate cost card
Force of Will (0 or 5?)
Aforementioned, alternate cost / 0 cmc / x spell category etc would be best place for this. We can do that at the end.
Crystal Shard (blue or colorless?)
I think the only real reason to play this is if it's blue, it's a huge incentive and makes the most sense as a blue card.
Thassa, God of the Sea (spell or creature?)
I think this serves a spell role most of the time
Vedalken Shackles (blue or colorless?)
100% definitely blue
Dig Through Time (6+ or X?)
I think this would be good in alternate cost section.
Faerie Conclave (blue or colorless or land?)
this should be classified as blue definitely (not gonna play it in your deck without blue mana). I could also have a 0cmc/land section as well to cover this stuff.
Shelldock Isle (blue or colorless or land?)
Blue, land.
Ninja of the Deep Hours (2 or 4?)
I think this should be a 2cmc creature
Capsize (3 or 6+?)
probably takes a 6+ slot, since that's what we're really hoping for. The three slot for blue spells is more exciting anyway.
Sarcomancy (creature or spell?)
I would like to do this as a creature, but we're already over that point. There are less great black spells at 1 cmc too, so this might actually be best.
Tombstalker (6+ or X?)
Alternate cost section.
Snuff Out (0 or 4?)
Alternate cost section.
Dismember (1 or 3?)
Alternate cost black card.
Each of these sections will have top 10s in each color, so Snuff Out, Dismember, and Tombstalker will be competing against each other which doesn't make a ridiculous amount of sense, but it's still more all-inclusive than doing it another way, I think.
Volrath's Stronghold (black or land or colorless?)
Definitely black, definitely land.
Herald of Torment (creature or spell? 3 or 5?)
This guy can go at either alternate cost or 3cmc. I think he fits better as 3cmc.
Lashwrithe (colorless or black? creature or spell?)
I'd put this as a black creature.
Bane of the Living (3 or 4 or 6+ or X?)
3cmc black creature
Slaughter Pact (0 or 5?)
alternate cost black card
Greater Gargadon (1 or 6+?)
6+ cmc red creature, since it doesn't really play as a one drop IMO
Shrine of Burning Rage (red or colorless?)
red two drop spell
Purphoros, God of the Forge (spell or creature?)
red four drop spell
Fireblast (0 or 6+?)
alternate cost red card
Pyrewild Shaman (creature or spell? 3 or 2?)
I think this guy is mostly in there to be a spell instead of a creature, so probably 2cmc red spell
Ashcloud Phoenix (3 or 4 or 6+?)
Morph at 3 cmc I think will be the norm
Call of the Herd (creature or spell?)
Creature at 3 cmc
Birthing Pod (green or colorless? 3 or 4?)
I think because of the cost and activation this should be green spell @ 3 cmc
Treetop Village (green or land or colorless?)
green land
Vines of Vastwood (1 or 2?)
green spell @ 1cmc
Krosan Tusker (creature or spell? 3 or 7?)
green spell @ 3 cmc
Gaea's Cradle (green or colorless or land?)
colorless land, I don't think you have to be green to play this land effectively
Rude Awakening (5 or 6+?)
rude awakening is really best at 6+ and it's a corner case when it's played for only one mode IMO
Batterskull (creature or spell?)
Creature imo, it puts a creature onto the battlefield after all.
Engineered Explosives (5 or 6+ or X?)
alternate cost / x spell section for sure
Far // Away (2 or 3 or 5?)
alternate cost section
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden (2 or 6+ or X?)
I think this guy is also good in the alternate cost section.
Kessig Wolf Run (multicolored or colorless or land?)
guild land
Conspiracies in general (colorless or separated list or not included?)
I'll do a separate list for this.
Two-Color Mana Fixing Lands - duals, fetches, shocks... (included or not? multicolored or colorless or land? each separated or grouped by cycle?)
Generic Mana Fixing Lands - city of brass, evolving wilds.... (included or not? multicolored or colorless or land?)
Signets (separated or as a single group? colorless or multicolored?)
I'll add a land section.
So to recap, here's what the new classification posts will look like:
Total sections:
week 1: 1 cmc creatures / 1 cmc spells
week 2: 2 cmc creatures / 2 cmc spells
week 3: 3 cmc creatures / 3 cmc spells
week 4: 4 cmc creatures / 4 cmc spells
week 5: 5 cmc creatures / 5 cmc spells
week 6: 6+ cmc creatures / 6+ cmc spells
week 7: 0cmc cards + lands
week 8: alternate/different cost cards (different costs / split spells / x spells)
week 9: conspiracies and un-cards
Miracle cards are classified as their miracle cost (in the case of X spell miracles, these will be in the alternate cost section)
Kicker cards are classified as with their kicker included (Kor Sanctifiers is a 4cmc card)
The alternate cost voting will have these cards in it: x-spells, split cards, delve, cards that can be played at multiple costs such as force of will, and some phyrexian mana cards.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube