I rather like it. At the very least, it's a 5/5 Flying Demon, with the potential for more coupled with a ridiculous emblem for an ultimate. Much better than Liliana Vess for a 5cc Black Planeswalker. Thoughts?
This guy seems fine, but I'm honestly not that impressed. His plus ability is an afterthought do nothing. His minus is great. Everyone loves 5/5 flying demons. And his ultimate is kinda meh. If left unchecked he could certainly crank out a demon army, which is pretty cool, but I doubt that is the average scenario. If I put this guy into my 550, my cut would likely be Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief and I think I like her more than this.
I don't like this guy more than Liliana Vess, at least for my 720. I don't like the comparison either since they do very different things.
This guy's merit is entirely in his -2 ability. The +2 is bad. His ultimate is poor -- if I play this guy on turn 5, and I don't feel like making a demon, and he doesn't lose loyalty, I need to wait until turn 8 to pay mana to sacrifice my guys? What? I mean, I'm never getting to this point anyway, so even if I have demons to sacrifice... oh wait, that would mean I'm on turn 10.
So the only reason to play this guy is his -2. So let's evaluate that:
3BB for a 5/5 flyer, and I lose 2 life with the deal and then Ob dies to literally any attacking creature that gets through or splittable burn spell. This is okay. So then I have to wait until turn 7 to make another demon, again, that's if he's not taking damage. And I'm still down 3 life total from these demons. Granted, getting two 5/5 flyers out of 3BB and 3 life over 3 turns is a good deal, there's a lot of conditions there. Black really doesn't need more lifeloss cards either. -.-
When you compare it to Bloodgift Demon, it seems decent. Bloodgift Demon is a slightly worse defender, gets killed slightly easier, but has better ability because the Demon draws me 1 card for 1 life.
I think this guy might be playable in most 720s. I will be passing on him, however.
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Yay, another sub-par black Planeswalker. Seems bad. 5 Mana for a 5/5 flyer and you pay 2 life. The next turn you gain a life. Assuming this extremely low loyalty Planeswalker is still around, you can suicide him on the third turn for another 5/5 flyer and 2 life. Or gain one more life. So slow. I agree with Falcone about cards that are better, and would also add Abyssal Persecutor and Master of the Feast to that list. At best this is a redundant effect for most black sections, and I actually think it's a good deal worse than that.
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Wow this is bad. I was hoping to see pushed things in commander again this year.
Probably the only 4 cmc black spell I want is a planeswalker like Sorin 2 or 3 but we get another Sorin 1/Vess.
I might be ok with a 5 drop planeswalker as black is a little shallow there but this guy seems worse than Shadowborn or Blodgift and those are fringy. Why couldn't this guy start with 4 loyalty? I would forgive the fact that the plus ability is only to fuel the minus and the ultimate is unusable.
And for the poor commander players out there, this guy is really boring.
I think this card is being seriously underestimated here. It's a planeswalker! It creates an evasive 5/5! Even if it gets removed right away, it's still a two-for-one because you get to keep your demon. If an opponent has to attack into it, it will require two attackers, one of which will likely get eaten by the demon anyway.
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Kind of a strange design. They gave him a +2 that is great in EDH while anemic outside of it, but a -2 that while incredible outside of EDH is just okay in it.
I'll be testing this guy. Vraska makes it into larger cubes as a Maelstrom Pulse on ETB and every subsequent 3 turns, and I see no reason why a monocolored 5/5 demon on ETB and every 2 turns shouldn't be better than that.
I don't think he's horrible at all, but I think Bloodgift Demon is better. So, whatever your cutoff for Bloodgift Demon is, this guy is probably in a cube size right above that (unless you like redundancy, in which case he'll be included in your cube beside Bloodgift Demon).
I actually like this better than liliana vess because it actually does something if you're behind on board whereas liliana is just a very expensive tutor if you're behind, but we don't play her at 450 unpowered and I don't think we'll play this guy. If either his +2 or his his ult was good, maybe, but as it stands his (admittedly very strong) -2 is not enough for a 5 cmc when you have to wait 2 turns for your second activation. If he started at 4 loyalty I would be very interested in testing him as getting 2 5/5 flyers in 2 turns would make this guy well worth the mana investment.
He's not bad. For 5 mana you get a 5/5 flying demon that leaves a small planeswalker body behind that can slowly recover life and deal extra direct damage. I like it more than Bloodgift Demon, because if your opponent has immediate removal it still guarantees you some value. And it has a 5th point of toughness, fwiw.
I actually like this better than liliana vess because it actually does something if you're behind on board whereas liliana is just a very expensive tutor if you're behind, but we don't play her at 450 unpowered and I don't think we'll play this guy. If either his +2 or his his ult was good, maybe, but as it stands his (admittedly very strong) -2 is not enough for a 5 cmc when you have to wait 2 turns for your second activation. If he started at 4 loyalty I would be very interested in testing him as getting 2 5/5 flyers in 2 turns would make this guy well worth the mana investment.
Liliana does help with certain archetypes like Stax and Reanimator that really want the tutor though, and she helps with black's worst matchup (blue decks) with her discard ability.
This guy's +2 is pretty useless, but I love his -2. I'd definitely want to try him out, though I don't think Vess is the right cut for him as they do pretty different things.
I think I prefer him to Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. The creature form requires additional land drops and can be dealt with by a single creature removal spell, though it does kill faster.
I really wish he would drain for 2 life with his +2 ability. But that would have probably been too strong on a mutliplayer card that can be used as a commander.
As is, his first ability is pretty weak in the typical two player cube game. He seems close to Liliana Vess's power level. Which means that I am not at all excited about him.
I think I prefer him to Ob Nixlis, the Fallen. The creature form requires additional land drops and can be dealt with by a single creature removal spell, though it does kill faster.
Obwalker, on the other hand, is much harder to deal with. The demon is out of range of almost anything red can do, and creatureless control decks now have two major threats to answer. Black is also very good at protecting him, with an endless flurry of removal to keep the board clear and stuff like Ophiomancer to make attacking on the ground misery.
I think he's pretty awesome. Not only is he a 5-mana 5/5 flying, which in itself is a strong stat line, but it comes with the ability to repeat the process. In my cube experience, Planeswalkers with a +2 ability are exceptionally challenging to deal with. The effect for the +2 isn't terribly irrelevant as it helps offset the life loss from the demon token, but the main source of power on this card is the fact that it's making a 5/5 the turn it comes into play, and every second turn after that. It's definitely more powerful than Bloodgift Demon, Drana, and Liliana Vess, because those cards are all way easier to deal with and/or deal way less damage over time.
Behind Shriekmaw this card seems so much better than the other 5 mana options for permanents in black. If it was just a 5/5 flier that made you lose two life once, then I'm not sure how I'd rate it, but as a baseline with a much higher ceiling this card seems really nuts. We aren't running this card for the 1st or 3rd ability, they might as well do nothing, because making a 5/5 flier once with the potential to do it every other turn after if unanswered is really really strong. In fact I think the poor quality of the first ability almost makes this card seem worse than it actually is because the first thing you read about it makes you think "that kinda sucks" when in reality the 5/5 flier factory seems like it will be open in cube for some time.
Behind Shriekmaw this card seems so much better than the other 5 mana options for permanents in black. If it was just a 5/5 flier that made you lose two life once, then I'm not sure how I'd rate it, but as a baseline with a much higher ceiling this card seems really nuts. We aren't running this card for the 1st or 3rd ability, they might as well do nothing, because making a 5/5 flier once with the potential to do it every other turn after if unanswered is really really strong. In fact I think the poor quality of the first ability almost makes this card seem worse than it actually is because the first thing you read about it makes you think "that kinda sucks" when in reality the 5/5 flier factory seems like it will be open in cube for some time.
People ought to be careful not to fall into the standard pitfalls of Planeswalker evaluation. +2 is very important to a planeswalker with a -2 as blatantly powerful as his. The effect is largely mundane, but the biggest dismissals of him in this thread hinge on the idea that because the effect isn't good, the fact that you're getting 2 loyalty counters isn't good either. Which isn't a good way to judge how playable a planeswalker is
So - 5 mana gets you a 5/5 flying Demon with a one damage upkeep ping that can also make more 5/5 flying Demons instead of the upkeep ping. Whichever way you slice it, it's a 5/5 flying for 5 with strong upside. You also have more guaranteed value than many other five drop options; if the first 5/5 snuffs it, you still get a 2 life swing every turn followed by more Demons. I think the card is deceptively strong. I don't know if I'll have room for it but I like it.
I like it too. Leaving a 1 loyality planeswalker behind your 5/5 flyer for 5 is nothing to sneeze at, even if it takes a turn for your walker (where it only drains one life) before it becomes a threat again. The worst case of this card is pretty solid, you get your 5/5 and they spend their attacker or spell to kill the walker. If they don't manage to do that (withing two turns) things get ugly with a second 5/5. I don't know yet how I'd rank it among the other black 5 drops but I wouldn't dismiss him right away.
After reading more of the comments, I think this guy is slightly better than I originally made him out to be. (I originally said he was a little worse than Bloodgift Demon).
I think Bloodgift Demon is actually the best comparison for him, but the cards are obviously much different. I'll be testing him at 720 in Bloodgift Demon's place. Ob might actually be slightly better, since he does provide you more up-front value than the Demon.
I think he's a definite include in bigger cubes. 5cmc for a 5/5 demon and a walker is a very very good deal. Sure, extort is "nothing", but when it goes up and down for the next two turns you get 2 demons. Those who run Skirsdag High Priest know what it's like to attack with 2 5/5 flying demons.
It's a walker that protects itself. It kills other walkers. I'll say it's the black version of Elspeth Tirel (for those who seem to have forgotten her). White didn't need her, but black would surely appreciate Obbie...
He's particularly sweet in BRWildfire control decks where the creature survives all the 'Fires and 'Quakes, the sweeper effects remove the threats that can attack the 'walker, and the land disruption gives the Subversion effect time to gain significant value.
I rather like it. At the very least, it's a 5/5 Flying Demon, with the potential for more coupled with a ridiculous emblem for an ultimate. Much better than Liliana Vess for a 5cc Black Planeswalker. Thoughts?
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This guy's merit is entirely in his -2 ability. The +2 is bad. His ultimate is poor -- if I play this guy on turn 5, and I don't feel like making a demon, and he doesn't lose loyalty, I need to wait until turn 8 to pay mana to sacrifice my guys? What? I mean, I'm never getting to this point anyway, so even if I have demons to sacrifice... oh wait, that would mean I'm on turn 10.
So the only reason to play this guy is his -2. So let's evaluate that:
3BB for a 5/5 flyer, and I lose 2 life with the deal and then Ob dies to literally any attacking creature that gets through or splittable burn spell. This is okay. So then I have to wait until turn 7 to make another demon, again, that's if he's not taking damage. And I'm still down 3 life total from these demons. Granted, getting two 5/5 flyers out of 3BB and 3 life over 3 turns is a good deal, there's a lot of conditions there. Black really doesn't need more lifeloss cards either. -.-
When you compare it to Bloodgift Demon, it seems decent. Bloodgift Demon is a slightly worse defender, gets killed slightly easier, but has better ability because the Demon draws me 1 card for 1 life.
I think this guy might be playable in most 720s. I will be passing on him, however.
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That is ignoring the ugly (in the context of Cube) 4th ability.
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Probably the only 4 cmc black spell I want is a planeswalker like Sorin 2 or 3 but we get another Sorin 1/Vess.
I might be ok with a 5 drop planeswalker as black is a little shallow there but this guy seems worse than Shadowborn or Blodgift and those are fringy. Why couldn't this guy start with 4 loyalty? I would forgive the fact that the plus ability is only to fuel the minus and the ultimate is unusable.
And for the poor commander players out there, this guy is really boring.
From the mind of Raymond Swanland: Valla, a plane made entirely out of brownish spikes.
5 drops have to be pretty silly good for me to look at them for inclusion, and he's only "good".
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I'll be testing this guy. Vraska makes it into larger cubes as a Maelstrom Pulse on ETB and every subsequent 3 turns, and I see no reason why a monocolored 5/5 demon on ETB and every 2 turns shouldn't be better than that.
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Liliana does help with certain archetypes like Stax and Reanimator that really want the tutor though, and she helps with black's worst matchup (blue decks) with her discard ability.
This guy's +2 is pretty useless, but I love his -2. I'd definitely want to try him out, though I don't think Vess is the right cut for him as they do pretty different things.
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As is, his first ability is pretty weak in the typical two player cube game. He seems close to Liliana Vess's power level. Which means that I am not at all excited about him.
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That's why I prefer him to something like Bloodgift Demon, Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, or Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. All are powerful cards with insane upside if you untap with them, but they protect you poorly and die to a single removal spell.
Obwalker, on the other hand, is much harder to deal with. The demon is out of range of almost anything red can do, and creatureless control decks now have two major threats to answer. Black is also very good at protecting him, with an endless flurry of removal to keep the board clear and stuff like Ophiomancer to make attacking on the ground misery.
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People ought to be careful not to fall into the standard pitfalls of Planeswalker evaluation. +2 is very important to a planeswalker with a -2 as blatantly powerful as his. The effect is largely mundane, but the biggest dismissals of him in this thread hinge on the idea that because the effect isn't good, the fact that you're getting 2 loyalty counters isn't good either. Which isn't a good way to judge how playable a planeswalker is
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I think Bloodgift Demon is actually the best comparison for him, but the cards are obviously much different. I'll be testing him at 720 in Bloodgift Demon's place. Ob might actually be slightly better, since he does provide you more up-front value than the Demon.
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It's a walker that protects itself. It kills other walkers. I'll say it's the black version of Elspeth Tirel (for those who seem to have forgotten her). White didn't need her, but black would surely appreciate Obbie...
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