Raid - When Wingmate Roc enters the battlefield, if you attacked with a creature this turn, put a 3/4 white Bird creature token with flying onto the battlefield.
Whenever Wingmate Roc attacks, you gain 1 life for each attacking creature.
The moment Reveillark gets cut is the moment your cube loses its soul. I love that crazy elemental.
I don't think this is quite good enough to unseat any of the three. It's a nice pseudo-card advantage effect for white that conveniently ducks Elspeth and dodges Lightning Bolt, but the competition is quite strong at the 5-drop slot and needing to trigger raid limits the decks that want it. Seems like a 540 candidate to me.
I'm personally a big fan of Archangel of Thune. To me, she plays a similar role to Exalted Angel, and beefy body that can help you stabilize, with the bonus effect of growing herself and the team.
Oh, I'm dumb. I don't know what I thought the card did.
Yeah, this guy is way better than what I read it as. I probably got confused with something on the duplicate thread, I just browsed over the picture.
Upon re-reading it, I think two 3/4s is pretty good, but for five mana it's still not as much power as you can be putting onto the board with Kalonian Hydra or even Wolfir Silverheart, and the latter there isn't making a lot of waves. It's also in white. I like it with flicker effects a lot though, especially if they're repeatable. Not bad with Crystal Shard / Erratic Portal too, although that's more of a 450+ thing.
Hmm. I think it still doesn't make my 360, but hopefully I'm not saying that because I was originally biased against it.
Cool card. Certainly strong. Was so clearly designed as an anti elspeth card in standard.
Don't think it deserves a slot tho. Revilark is uncuttable, cloud gout is sweet and has lots of synergies and baneslayer completely destroys some decks.
I could see some day cutting baneslayer and cloudgout, but the cards that would replace them would have to be standard format warping strong.
Not in the market for another 5 drop unless it's very powerful.
Only thing I may be underestimating is its gain life clause.
If raid activated 100 percent id definitely try to add it, but think the conditionality kills it's power.
Difference between 2 3/4s and 1 is enormous.
I like this card a lot, and I think its power level is very close to that of Cloudgoat Ranger - same amount of power, evasion, and I think the lifegain from Roc goes a long way towards making up for the (albeit pretty easy to fulfill) conditionality of the Bird tokens. Plus, I'd rather have a 3/4 flying Bird six ways to Sunday over 3 1/1 soldiers unless I have an anthem effect - and having two 4/5 fliers with an anthem is pretty solid. If the Bird token were unconditional, this would be a slam dunk over CGR. As is, I feel like it's a wash between the two.
No way I cut Reveillark for this. The potential for card advantage and shenanigans with Reveillark is just way too high for Big Bird here to compete. In terms of consistency and raw power this doesn't hold a candle to Baneslayer Angel either, even if Big Bird scores better on the Vindicate test.
I've never played with Archangel of Thune in cube, but I don't think I'd want it over Wingmate Roc unless I were pushing a lifegain theme in my cube - and on its own the amount of life Wingmate Roc can gain is pretty close to what you'd bet from Archangel as long as you get the bird token and can afford to attack with both and any other creatures. The value of the second flying fatty definitely gives Wingmate Roc the edge over what Archangel can do as near as I can tell.
The other popular white 5-drop I think I like Wingmate Roc better than is Karmic Guide. Karmic Guide does amazing things with blink, bounce, Recurring Nightmare/Birthing Pod, and Reveillark, but if you're not building a deck that can abuse it, you're not getting enough for 5-10 mana with Karmic Guide on its own. Wingmate Roc should add plenty for a deck with any of those shenanigans except for Reveillark, and it will do so much more in an aggro-midrange deck.
My verdict: If you're running Archangel of Thune, Karmic Guide, or you're sick of Cloudgoat Ranger for any reason - put a bird on it.
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Reveillark has done little to win us over, but needs more time before going on the chopping block. This guy is waiting in the wings. It's a very good card and its condition should be easy to fulfil for midrange. However, it makes it a lot harder for this card to work well in control. As it costs 5, that is a big strike against the card and the reason it won't go straight in.
I agree with the general sentiment in the thread: very good card, not quite good enough to unseat the top-3 White 5-drops, so not for the smallest lists, but very playable in larger ones.
If it didn't need the attack trigger - sure, it'd be better than Cloudgoat Ranger.
But with Raid: the times where you don't trigger it, even if they are not so common, will hurt *badly*. And it's not just having an attacker, you also need to attack, and it's not given that you'd always want to. This isn't the finisher/stabilizer I want in controls decks. Probably good in midrange though.
I like it alot more than the idea of adding another 4 drop anything in white going up to 540 so it may just go in or replace one of my more questionable white spells at 4 cmc
Pretty cool, but I like Archangel of Thune more and that is the only one I even think about cutting for this. Angel has just consistently been really good for us.
Powerful creature, to be sure. It's definitely no Reveillark, which is the best white 5cc creature by a good margin. Baneslayer Angel is more powerful and does a better job stabilizing you in control. Cloudgoat Ranger also gives you 6 power, but it's 4 threats (so better for token/anthem) and it has a guaranteed trigger, which is better for post-wrath recovery, blink/bounce abuse and just general consistency. So I don't think it uproots any of the 5-drops at 360.
Now in the 450-540 range, there's usually room for 1-2 more creatures in this category, and that's where I think this Roc can compete. Karmic Guide, Archangel of Thune, Geist-Honored Monk, Scion of Vitu-Ghazi ...somewhere in that range Wingmate Roc will stand out as a better option for some cubes. I think I would test it in the #4 or #5 5cc creature slot in white, at whatever size you think it becomes necessary to run that many 5-drops.
Oh, I'm dumb. I don't know what I thought the card did.
Yeah, this guy is way better than what I read it as. I probably got confused with something on the duplicate thread, I just browsed over the picture.
Upon re-reading it, I think two 3/4s is pretty good, but for five mana it's still not as much power as you can be putting onto the board with Kalonian Hydra or even Wolfir Silverheart, and the latter there isn't making a lot of waves. It's also in white. I like it with flicker effects a lot though, especially if they're repeatable. Not bad with Crystal Shard / Erratic Portal too, although that's more of a 450+ thing.
Hmm. I think it still doesn't make my 360, but hopefully I'm not saying that because I was originally biased against it.
I don't think silverheart and hydra are very good here. Hydra is a big dumb beater that fails the vindicate test and silverheart doesn't give evasion. They are also both in the color that gets the biggest return on its investment in creatures. Six evasive power over two creatures both of which dodge all 3 damage burn spells and gain you life is a very powerful effect. I agree that this doesn't make 360 lists, but I certainly think its testable at 450+ and probably a shoe in at 540 and above. It's incredibly hard to race this guy in any kind of comparable board position as long as you have one Ok attack or guy to throw away for the raid.
Obviously the conditionality, how bad it is in an empty board, and potential for it to read "sac a creature" are it's biggest downsides, but I think it's powerful enough in the average and best scenarios to make up for that.
This is very close to a mono-colored Broodmate dragon to me, and that is pretty good. Lark and Angel are pretty touch to unseat, and I have love for the ranger, but I think it is very close. The ranger probably is a little higher due to the guaranteed tokens but most of my wins come from sending the ranger into the air, unless I am just bashing in with an anthem. And with an anthem both cards are excellent.
As a side note I will point out that populate effects are getting better and better. We have more and more playable token cards, and now with 6/6 Wurms, 3/4 flyers, X/X Elementals, in addition to the old 1/1 soliders and 3/3 Beasts people should take another look at their lists.
This card is really good, and I think it's a better curve topper for white aggressive decks than most of the other options. Yeah, the attack trigger is annoying, but the fail case isn't THAT embarrassing. A 3/4 flier is still a thing.
I also think this guy is really nice in control decks. Get in there with a random V clique, Sea Gate Oracle, Venser or whatever, and plop this guy down and you've got a pretty solid brick wall.
So, the versatility is what sells me here. I will be playing this at 450.
Personally, I feel like Reveillark is a sacred cow among cubers nowadays and I wouldn't mind cutting it. Though Wingmate Roc is decent, its obviously not better than Baneslayer or Cloudgate, and I dont think its better than Reveillark so he keeps his spot for now.
I definitely wouldn't cut Reveillark or Baneslayer for this. In fact if there comes a day when Baneslayer needs to be cut for a more powerful option I will be very afraid.
But I could definitely see tying it out over Cloudgoat Ranger. I think Cloudgoat is the better card but I also think it's close enough that running this and trying out the new card is definitely worth it. A lot of times if I'm not running anthems and Cloudgoat Ranger dies all I have left is 3 ugly kithkin tokens which isn't great and I'd much prefer the 3/4 flyer.
A pretty powerful 5-drop, though it won't be unseating Baneslayer Angel or Cloudgoat Ranger for me. Maybe a replacement for Reveillark?
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Creature - Bird
Flying
Raid - When Wingmate Roc enters the battlefield, if you attacked with a creature this turn, put a 3/4 white Bird creature token with flying onto the battlefield.
Whenever Wingmate Roc attacks, you gain 1 life for each attacking creature.
Six power in the air spread over 2 bodies for 5 mana as long as you attacked with something that turn - plus Angel of Thune-esque pseuodo-lifelink. That's pretty efficient and it passes the Vindicate test, and it also makes a great blink/bounce/Recurring Nightmare/Birthing Pod target, but is it better than Reveillark, Cloudgoat Ranger, Karmic Guide, or Baneslayer?
Should we put a bird on it?
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I don't think this is quite good enough to unseat any of the three. It's a nice pseudo-card advantage effect for white that conveniently ducks Elspeth and dodges Lightning Bolt, but the competition is quite strong at the 5-drop slot and needing to trigger raid limits the decks that want it. Seems like a 540 candidate to me.
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This card isn't as powerful as Baneslayer Angel, and fails the Vindicate test, so I won't be cubing it.
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This card doesn't fail the vindicate test. If they Vindicate, you still have a 3/4 flyer.
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Yeah, this guy is way better than what I read it as. I probably got confused with something on the duplicate thread, I just browsed over the picture.
Upon re-reading it, I think two 3/4s is pretty good, but for five mana it's still not as much power as you can be putting onto the board with Kalonian Hydra or even Wolfir Silverheart, and the latter there isn't making a lot of waves. It's also in white. I like it with flicker effects a lot though, especially if they're repeatable. Not bad with Crystal Shard / Erratic Portal too, although that's more of a 450+ thing.
Hmm. I think it still doesn't make my 360, but hopefully I'm not saying that because I was originally biased against it.
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Don't think it deserves a slot tho. Revilark is uncuttable, cloud gout is sweet and has lots of synergies and baneslayer completely destroys some decks.
I could see some day cutting baneslayer and cloudgout, but the cards that would replace them would have to be standard format warping strong.
Not in the market for another 5 drop unless it's very powerful.
Only thing I may be underestimating is its gain life clause.
If raid activated 100 percent id definitely try to add it, but think the conditionality kills it's power.
Difference between 2 3/4s and 1 is enormous.
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No way I cut Reveillark for this. The potential for card advantage and shenanigans with Reveillark is just way too high for Big Bird here to compete. In terms of consistency and raw power this doesn't hold a candle to Baneslayer Angel either, even if Big Bird scores better on the Vindicate test.
I've never played with Archangel of Thune in cube, but I don't think I'd want it over Wingmate Roc unless I were pushing a lifegain theme in my cube - and on its own the amount of life Wingmate Roc can gain is pretty close to what you'd bet from Archangel as long as you get the bird token and can afford to attack with both and any other creatures. The value of the second flying fatty definitely gives Wingmate Roc the edge over what Archangel can do as near as I can tell.
The other popular white 5-drop I think I like Wingmate Roc better than is Karmic Guide. Karmic Guide does amazing things with blink, bounce, Recurring Nightmare/Birthing Pod, and Reveillark, but if you're not building a deck that can abuse it, you're not getting enough for 5-10 mana with Karmic Guide on its own. Wingmate Roc should add plenty for a deck with any of those shenanigans except for Reveillark, and it will do so much more in an aggro-midrange deck.
My verdict: If you're running Archangel of Thune, Karmic Guide, or you're sick of Cloudgoat Ranger for any reason - put a bird on it.
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I have a high opinion of Archangel of Thune, but this is better (Vindicate test-proof), and for those who have stuff like Geist-Honored Monk or Scion of Vitu-Ghazi in their list, it will be a very easy replacement.
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But with Raid: the times where you don't trigger it, even if they are not so common, will hurt *badly*. And it's not just having an attacker, you also need to attack, and it's not given that you'd always want to. This isn't the finisher/stabilizer I want in controls decks. Probably good in midrange though.
Now in the 450-540 range, there's usually room for 1-2 more creatures in this category, and that's where I think this Roc can compete. Karmic Guide, Archangel of Thune, Geist-Honored Monk, Scion of Vitu-Ghazi ...somewhere in that range Wingmate Roc will stand out as a better option for some cubes. I think I would test it in the #4 or #5 5cc creature slot in white, at whatever size you think it becomes necessary to run that many 5-drops.
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I don't think silverheart and hydra are very good here. Hydra is a big dumb beater that fails the vindicate test and silverheart doesn't give evasion. They are also both in the color that gets the biggest return on its investment in creatures. Six evasive power over two creatures both of which dodge all 3 damage burn spells and gain you life is a very powerful effect. I agree that this doesn't make 360 lists, but I certainly think its testable at 450+ and probably a shoe in at 540 and above. It's incredibly hard to race this guy in any kind of comparable board position as long as you have one Ok attack or guy to throw away for the raid.
Obviously the conditionality, how bad it is in an empty board, and potential for it to read "sac a creature" are it's biggest downsides, but I think it's powerful enough in the average and best scenarios to make up for that.
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As a side note I will point out that populate effects are getting better and better. We have more and more playable token cards, and now with 6/6 Wurms, 3/4 flyers, X/X Elementals, in addition to the old 1/1 soliders and 3/3 Beasts people should take another look at their lists.
I also think this guy is really nice in control decks. Get in there with a random V clique, Sea Gate Oracle, Venser or whatever, and plop this guy down and you've got a pretty solid brick wall.
So, the versatility is what sells me here. I will be playing this at 450.
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Yeah, I was short-cutting "you gain 2 life when they both attack" to "they both gain you life." I should have been more clear.
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But I could definitely see tying it out over Cloudgoat Ranger. I think Cloudgoat is the better card but I also think it's close enough that running this and trying out the new card is definitely worth it. A lot of times if I'm not running anthems and Cloudgoat Ranger dies all I have left is 3 ugly kithkin tokens which isn't great and I'd much prefer the 3/4 flyer.
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