This thread is for the discussion of Mind Twist in the context of unpowered cubes.
This is considered one of the cards of the "Powered" cube package, and is banned by some playgroups for the "fun" factor, but while I can imagine having no cards in hand by turn 2 is not funny, I think this card can actually be a little more palatable without fast mana. It is obviosly powerful, but is it different than, say, Balance or Umezawa's Jitte, cards that a lot of unpowered cubes play (mine included)? I'd love to hear stories about the card both from people with unpowered cubes who play it and from people with unpowered cubes who used to play it but cut it (and their reasons to do it).
I play this in an unpowered cube. I don't run fast mana, all the way down to Grim Monolith, and pretty much agree it's not nearly as degenerate if you don't have fast mana in your cube.
I would splash black without question if I got Mind Twist, especially in an unpowered cube. Even in powered cube it rarely gets to fire off on turn 2 or 3 and often becomes a midgame hoser. I'd probably not compare it to Balance or Umezawa's Jitte. In the former, Balance is really quite the build-around card and Jitte, however amazing it is, is often answerable by every color (Disenchant/Shatter effects). The next card that is even remotely close to Mind Twist is Hymn to Tourach which is way more difficult to cast. And consider how good Hymn is.
Now, for my answer to the question 'Is Mind Twist a valid inclusion to an unpowered cube?'. Probably not. There are probably too many synergies that I can think of which breaks this card in an unpowered cube. Snapcaster Mage, Yawgmoth's Will, Regrowth and Eternal Witness let you Twist an opponent twice. It can be tutored to answer any deck, including cards which prefer to sit in hand like removal and wrath effects and especially Recurring Nightmare. And probably what is most threatening about it is that it curves very, very efficiently. You're allowed the choice of when to cast it and to what effect, allowing you to pick an ideal sequence of casting cards which seems to be the most broken aspect of the card. Mind Twist has an effect which is stronger than the cost of the card, which I think unpowered cubes aren't trying to have (as) prevalent.
It's not too powerful for an unpowered cube, the removal of the powered mana really bring this cards speed down. Still would pick it extremely high, but it's not "powered" like the other cards are. As for fun factor, that's up to your playgroup.
I agree with ropestar and RJRellik, Mind Twist is OK for a Cube without fast mana. Of course it is a very good card and it can win the game. But you give the opponent some time before destroying his hand. I use Hymn to Tourach as a benchmark. Mind Twist costs 2B to get that effect, which is great (I would still be playing Stupor if Stupor was two cards at random). Without fast mana, Mind Twist will not really hit harder than Hymn to Tourach before turn three. That is enough time to develop some resources (I think the most powerful aspect of a very early Mind Twist is hitting lands and locking out the opponent right then and there), get threats on board, strip Mind Twist from your hand or have counterspell mana ready.
Yep, I think Mind Twist is OK without fast mana being present. It feels much less degenerate now than it did when we were running the fast mana better than Grim Monolith. It's still in the top 3 black cards though, probably the best overall, but not totally unreasonable unless it's played for high X very early. Konfusius pretty much said it.
I don't run Mind Twist for a couple reasons:
1. Most unfun card even. Yes, ever. It just sucks to lose to it.
One established finding in psychology is that people are "loss averse." Rationally, it shouldn't matter if you are gaining or losing value as long as you end up at the same place, but people feel loss more acutely. In Magic terms, my opponent getting up 3 cards on my through Library of Alexandria feels better than my opponent getting up 3 cards on me by Mind Twisting me. It's just painful. It's one of the most flavorful black cards to me because it really taps into black's amorality and willingness to cause distress for personal gain. But, from a game play perspective, this card is the essence of displeasure and anti-fun.
Second, it's a high variance card. I think people tend to perceive high variance cards as "lucky" and consequently it is less fun to use to win and less fun to lose to. When go t1 mana dork t2 mana dork/cultivate t3 Mind Twist for 4, no one congratulates you. They are like, "Well, ok, you drew the right cards," not, "Well played." High variance and/or broken cards can add some spice, but I'm selective. I tend to go for ones that either provide value rather than remove it, or ones that require setup or building around.
2. From a raw power perspective it's probably ok, but limits inclusion of other cards. I have slowly added Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, and other select artifact acceleration to my cube. While good, these cards haven't broken anything. I don't like how Mind Twist would limit acceleration in the cube.
I second everything Big Jim just said. I love powerful cards and run the fast mana in my unpowered cube (minus sol ring of course). This card is just too feel-bad and powerful.
I think it really is a personal preference and a group preference issue. Without fast mana the card is reasonable but still powerful on curve and hard to ramp out to outside of green. You just have to ask yourself and the people you play with if they consider the card fun or not. My group of friends loves getting slapped around by Mind Twist but it is totally understandable to hate it.
While it sucks to lose to discard, there is a part of me that wants to retain the ridiculousness of this card. It gives such a different avenue to victory that I allow it to exist in my cube. I think it is fair though. Versus aggro it can be too slow, and against control it can easily be countered. Midrange has the least protection from it but there are cards like Genesis and Obstinate Baloth that helps you recover from the Twist.
Plus I have it for personal reasons: Mind Twist is the first ever rare I had. The card I bought 20 years ago is the same one in in my Cube.
If you're interested in the x costed discard effect, but you're on the fence because you feel the xB casting cost is too efficient for unpowered, maybe you could try Mind Shatter or Rakdos' Return for 1 more mana?
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Mind Twist is strong but not broken in my unpowered cube. I run many powerful cards, but no non-creature cards that cost 2 or less and produce more mana than they cost (aka super fast mana). This makes Twist roughly as powerful as Hymn to Tourach in the first few turns, though it can hit much harder during turns 4-6. There aren't that many decks that are totally wrecked by it, since it isn't that strong against aggro decks and many slower decks still have a few low drops (mana rocks or creatures) or disruption (mostly counter spells). Giving the opponent the time to get 3-4 mana into play before twisting away their hand means that there are far fewer games where Twist wins on the spot.
That said, Mind Twist was one of only two cards currently in my cube that were at one point banned due to their combination of power level and potential for frustration (the other is Armageddon).
I find it rather intriguing that on one hand, Mind Twist is a super powerful cube card, but on the other hand, I don't want to run Mind Shatter because I don't think it is strong enough. What a difference a single mana makes!
Really solid discussion, people, thank you.
Given all the feedback, I will talk to my playgroup about it, but I will try it. I was looking to add a little more raw power to my black section, and this fits the bill. Couple more quick thoughts:
I don't run Mind Twist for a couple reasons:
1. Most unfun card even. Yes, ever. It just sucks to lose to it.
One established finding in psychology is that people are "loss averse." Rationally, it shouldn't matter if you are gaining or losing value as long as you end up at the same place, but people feel loss more acutely. In Magic terms, my opponent getting up 3 cards on my through Library of Alexandria feels better than my opponent getting up 3 cards on me by Mind Twisting me. It's just painful. It's one of the most flavorful black cards to me because it really taps into black's amorality and willingness to cause distress for personal gain. But, from a game play perspective, this card is the essence of displeasure and anti-fun.
Second, it's a high variance card. I think people tend to perceive high variance cards as "lucky" and consequently it is less fun to use to win and less fun to lose to. When go t1 mana dork t2 mana dork/cultivate t3 Mind Twist for 4, no one congratulates you. They are like, "Well, ok, you drew the right cards," not, "Well played." High variance and/or broken cards can add some spice, but I'm selective. I tend to go for ones that either provide value rather than remove it, or ones that require setup or building around.
2. From a raw power perspective it's probably ok, but limits inclusion of other cards. I have slowly added Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, and other select artifact acceleration to my cube. While good, these cards haven't broken anything. I don't like how Mind Twist would limit acceleration in the cube.
These are excellent points and very well phrased as well. I am one of the most "loss averse" people I know and that was the main factor why I'm not already playing the card, and I think your analysis is spot on. That said, I take it as my mission as Cube designer to show my playgroup at least small samples of Magic play throughout the game's history; it's probably for the best that stuff like Mind Twist, Rishadan Port, Wildfire and Balance are no longer the norm, but I find them interesting in small doses. I don't mind cards being high variance; I also don't run any fast mana with the exception of Grim Monolith, and even that card feels almost "fair". But then again, if my playgroup doesn't like the card or it plays miserably, I will gladly take it out.
I find it rather intriguing that on one hand, Mind Twist is a super powerful cube card, but on the other hand, I don't want to run Mind Shatter because I don't think it is strong enough. What a difference a single mana makes!
Yes, that's what I thought as well. I don't think anyone can argue Mind Shatter is "unfun", but I'm afraid it's not really good/exciting, either.
I'm OK with being Mind Twisted, as long as it isn't off a T1 Black Lotus. Being Twisted on-curve feels much less dirty than a Hymn to Tourach, and is merely a strong random discard effect. Seeing as it's usually cast for x=2 or x=3, that's about its level. Certainly less 'unfun' to me than losing to creature --> 'Geddon, as there's always a way back after losing a couple of cards in hand, but rarely after losing all your lands.
Also, the great thing about Mind Twist is how amazingly splashable it is. I will grab it in any pack it shows up in no matter what colors I am in and usually do not have any issues finding a way to make it fit into the final 23.
I wouldn't think that fast mana would greatly affect Twists power level. Sure, you can't get the random "Twist for four on turn two", but really that doesn't happen with any regularity worth caring about. In an unpowered enviornment, hands get emptied slower, so I'd imagine that would mitigate any fast mana brokeness (after all, both players can play moxen).
I'd play it, just because I play everything, but don't expect it to be more "fair".
- Too splashable for this type of powerful effect. Compare this to other CX spells like Fireball or Condescend/Repeal; even CCX spells like Unexpectedly Absent and you'll see the difference. Likely Black's best spell in any Cube.
- Random discard allows for complete blowouts that stunt gameplay, like casting it for 2-3 and hitting all of your opponent's lands.
- Not symmetrical like other 'blowout' cards (think Armageddon, Upheaval)
- Takes close to 0 skill or setup to play correctly, unlike those cards listed above.
Certainly worth playing if you just run all the things, and with the slower format of unpowered the loss of fast mana doesn't impact the card as much as it may seem. Very good card, but not a fan at all.
-AA
Edit: Vs. Aggro, when did you draw the Mind Twist that you still lost to it? Once their hand was already empty? Otherwise, you probably should have just cast it to take potential damage out of their hand
Banned it from my unpowered cube several years ago, and I have not looked back. I would have liked the card better if it said "4B: Win the game", but as it is it still wins the game, only the player on the receiving end has to dejectedly play on because the game isn't technically over. It's pretty difficult to have a fun game where Mind Twist was good, and for that reason it is perma-banned.
I do have to note that I'm running a decent amount of artifact mana in my cube - all the signets and all the usual colorless mana artifacts (excluding Mana Crypt, which is another feel bad-card, and Sol Ring, which is banned for power level reasons).
This is considered one of the cards of the "Powered" cube package, and is banned by some playgroups for the "fun" factor, but while I can imagine having no cards in hand by turn 2 is not funny, I think this card can actually be a little more palatable without fast mana. It is obviosly powerful, but is it different than, say, Balance or Umezawa's Jitte, cards that a lot of unpowered cubes play (mine included)? I'd love to hear stories about the card both from people with unpowered cubes who play it and from people with unpowered cubes who used to play it but cut it (and their reasons to do it).
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Now, for my answer to the question 'Is Mind Twist a valid inclusion to an unpowered cube?'. Probably not. There are probably too many synergies that I can think of which breaks this card in an unpowered cube. Snapcaster Mage, Yawgmoth's Will, Regrowth and Eternal Witness let you Twist an opponent twice. It can be tutored to answer any deck, including cards which prefer to sit in hand like removal and wrath effects and especially Recurring Nightmare. And probably what is most threatening about it is that it curves very, very efficiently. You're allowed the choice of when to cast it and to what effect, allowing you to pick an ideal sequence of casting cards which seems to be the most broken aspect of the card. Mind Twist has an effect which is stronger than the cost of the card, which I think unpowered cubes aren't trying to have (as) prevalent.
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1. Most unfun card even. Yes, ever. It just sucks to lose to it.
One established finding in psychology is that people are "loss averse." Rationally, it shouldn't matter if you are gaining or losing value as long as you end up at the same place, but people feel loss more acutely. In Magic terms, my opponent getting up 3 cards on my through Library of Alexandria feels better than my opponent getting up 3 cards on me by Mind Twisting me. It's just painful. It's one of the most flavorful black cards to me because it really taps into black's amorality and willingness to cause distress for personal gain. But, from a game play perspective, this card is the essence of displeasure and anti-fun.
Second, it's a high variance card. I think people tend to perceive high variance cards as "lucky" and consequently it is less fun to use to win and less fun to lose to. When go t1 mana dork t2 mana dork/cultivate t3 Mind Twist for 4, no one congratulates you. They are like, "Well, ok, you drew the right cards," not, "Well played." High variance and/or broken cards can add some spice, but I'm selective. I tend to go for ones that either provide value rather than remove it, or ones that require setup or building around.
2. From a raw power perspective it's probably ok, but limits inclusion of other cards. I have slowly added Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, and other select artifact acceleration to my cube. While good, these cards haven't broken anything. I don't like how Mind Twist would limit acceleration in the cube.
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Plus I have it for personal reasons: Mind Twist is the first ever rare I had. The card I bought 20 years ago is the same one in in my Cube.
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That said, Mind Twist was one of only two cards currently in my cube that were at one point banned due to their combination of power level and potential for frustration (the other is Armageddon).
I find it rather intriguing that on one hand, Mind Twist is a super powerful cube card, but on the other hand, I don't want to run Mind Shatter because I don't think it is strong enough. What a difference a single mana makes!
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Given all the feedback, I will talk to my playgroup about it, but I will try it. I was looking to add a little more raw power to my black section, and this fits the bill. Couple more quick thoughts:
These are excellent points and very well phrased as well. I am one of the most "loss averse" people I know and that was the main factor why I'm not already playing the card, and I think your analysis is spot on. That said, I take it as my mission as Cube designer to show my playgroup at least small samples of Magic play throughout the game's history; it's probably for the best that stuff like Mind Twist, Rishadan Port, Wildfire and Balance are no longer the norm, but I find them interesting in small doses. I don't mind cards being high variance; I also don't run any fast mana with the exception of Grim Monolith, and even that card feels almost "fair". But then again, if my playgroup doesn't like the card or it plays miserably, I will gladly take it out.
Yes, that's what I thought as well. I don't think anyone can argue Mind Shatter is "unfun", but I'm afraid it's not really good/exciting, either.
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I'd play it, just because I play everything, but don't expect it to be more "fair".
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- Too splashable for this type of powerful effect. Compare this to other CX spells like Fireball or Condescend/Repeal; even CCX spells like Unexpectedly Absent and you'll see the difference. Likely Black's best spell in any Cube.
- Random discard allows for complete blowouts that stunt gameplay, like casting it for 2-3 and hitting all of your opponent's lands.
- Not symmetrical like other 'blowout' cards (think Armageddon, Upheaval)
- Takes close to 0 skill or setup to play correctly, unlike those cards listed above.
Certainly worth playing if you just run all the things, and with the slower format of unpowered the loss of fast mana doesn't impact the card as much as it may seem. Very good card, but not a fan at all.
-AA
Edit: Vs. Aggro, when did you draw the Mind Twist that you still lost to it? Once their hand was already empty? Otherwise, you probably should have just cast it to take potential damage out of their hand
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