FWIW, i wouldn't cube this card in small lists either as it isn't quite powerful enough. However, i don't agree that the Bestow cost is the problem. The base creature itself is lackluster.
Correct. Either A) the base creature needs to be close enough to cubeworthy on its own that the bestow is basically a bonus, or B) the bestow needs to be costed aggressively enough to make up for the lackluster creature mode. This guy is just missing something (a small adjustment) to either the quality of the creature OR the cost of the bestow to make it worthwhile. But as it is, I don't see it making its way into small-medium sized cubes. A 2B cost, a 4th toughness, a 4cc bestow ...something. As is, I can pass on it comfortably.
I'm looking forward to cubing him, and don't expect him to disappoint. It's a great addition in a bunch of decks we run and I wanted a black aggro creature at that price point.
It sounds like people don't value bestow at all.
Anyway am i correct in assuming f i bestow a creature and sac said creature the next turn to stacks this thig can swing?
simpygdog you are correct. Since you controlled the permanent since the beginning of your turn it doesn't have summoning sickness. Think about it like the man lands. If you play Mishra's Factory and activate the same turn, you can't attack because as a creature that you didn't control since the beginning of the turn, it has summoning sickness. But if you activate it the next turn, voila 2/2 that can attack.
That's not the case. It's just that Wizards knows how to appropriately cost the ability. They print it at what it's worth for limited, standard, etc. What I need for the cube is the pushed version. The unfair version. The bestow mistake. Because when it's costed the way it should be costed, it's just too expensive for the cube.
Boon Satyr is much better than this creature, and the bestow proved to be too expensive for the cube (at least for my cube anyways). We need them to push the creature or push the mechanic in order to get a bestow card that will fit in 360-450 card cubes. This guy isn't it. Satyr was closer, but 5 mana is just too much by cube standards.
That's not the case. It's just that Wizards knows how to appropriately cost the ability. They print it at what it's worth for limited, standard, etc. What I need for the cube is the pushed version. The unfair version. The bestow mistake. Because when it's costed the way it should be costed, it's just too expensive for the cube.
Boon Satyr is much better than this creature, and the bestow proved to be too expensive for the cube (at least for my cube anyways). We need them to push the creature or push the mechanic in order to get a bestow card that will fit in 360-450 card cubes. This guy isn't it. Satyr was closer, but 5 mana is just too much by cube standards.
I can understand that. You want one of the options to be broken. I see it more as 2 goods giving me the versatility of a solid cube card. I'm never going to be dissapointed by a 3/3 flyer for 1BB, nor evasion +3/+3 and wrath insurance for 3BB, but blacks lack of solid five drops also factors in, as this card fits a niche that not many other cards fill, its not like a white 2 drop or a red 4 drop, blacks 5 drops have the least competition in the entire cube. I currently run shriekmaw.
I can understand that. You want one of the options to be broken. I see it more as 2 goods giving me the versatility of a solid cube card. I'm never going to be dissapointed by a 3/3 flyer for 1BB, nor evasion +3/+3 and wrath insurance for 3BB, but blacks lack of solid five drops also factors in, as this card fits a niche that not many other cards fill, its not like a white 2 drop or a red 4 drop, blacks 5 drops have the least competition in the entire cube. I currently run shriekmaw.
I can understand that. You want one of the options to be broken. I see it more as 2 goods giving me the versatility of a solid cube card. I'm never going to be dissapointed by a 3/3 flyer for 1BB, nor evasion +3/+3 and wrath insurance for 3BB, but blacks lack of solid five drops also factors in, as this card fits a niche that not many other cards fill, its not like a white 2 drop or a red 4 drop, blacks 5 drops have the least competition in the entire cube. I currently run shriekmaw.
I don't need one of the modes to be broken. I just want one of the modes to be close to cubeworthy on its own.
Well, I think a 3/3 flyer for 3 is 'close to cubeworthy'. A 3/4 flier in a less aggressive colour is a perceived staple, so 3/3 is 'close'. The fourth toughness is really great and so on and so forth, but stick with it. Here we also get a worse mana cost which is in fact unlikely to matter often outside of splashes, but also a really sweet other mode that can result in 5 hasty evasive damage immediately just on a simple bear, for 5 mana. Turning my irrelevant 2/1 or 2/2 into Thundermaw is cool. That is 'close to cubeworthy' too.
Not only that, but the second mode ignores the majority of removal and gives you protection against Wraths. That's a 'cubeworthy' effect considering that our cube and most play removal and wraths. I wouldn't cube one of those alone (I'd have considered the base creature, but doubt I'd include it) but together the options swing it for me to give it a run. Maybe each mode is 'fair', but a ton of great cube cards are fair and not broken. In fact, each mode is really rather decent already.
This also fills in two weak slots in black's curve: 3 and 5 drops. I wanted a roleplayer for each, so this gets two jobs done for my black section at once. That's totally swell as far as I'm concerned, and I couldn't be happier to get another Bestow guy. It's a good mechanic.
One more decent Bestow would be a nice addition. A black one-drop counterpart to that 1/2 guy, maybe.
FWIW, I think Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, Shadowborn Demon, Bloodgift Demon, and Ob Nixilis, the Fallen are all better options for five drops than this guy.
I agree, but they don't have a decently costed body for three mana in the event. I would never run three of those in aggro, and that that point it's like asking: which is better, coffee or duct tape? They're different things for different decks. I'm running Shadowborn Demon and Shriekmaw as the dedicated five drops. I won't usually run a five-drop in my aggro, but I like having an option of a costlier mode on a cheaper base, if the opportunity arises.
It's harder to cast than Efreet, it has less toughness (which is a huge drawback), is in a color that's jammed with lifeloss, and it can be disenchanted. That's not close to cubeworthy, IMO. I think the creature mode is bad, and the aura mode is okay, but certainly not worth 5 mana.
It's definitely the aura mode that makes me want to test this guy.
Instantly turning a random ground creature into a game threatening evasive threat that if dealt with produces a 3/3 flyer (a solid clock on its own).
That's verrry close to worth 5 mana in my book, then when you add the option to play it as a 3/3 flyer in a pinch, Im guessing it puts it up to the borderline playable range.
I cube with very strong players (most of my play group plays on the pro tour and cubes more than any other format) and the consensus of people I've talked to are that it's just short of inclusion, which makes me question my evaluation.
I agree, but they don't have a decently costed body for three mana in the event. I would never run three of those in aggro, and that that point it's like asking: which is better, coffee or duct tape? They're different things for different decks. I'm running Shadowborn Demon and Shriekmaw as the dedicated five drops. I won't usually run a five-drop in my aggro, but I like having an option of a costlier mode on a cheaper base, if the opportunity arises.
I suppose that's fair. My problem is just that looking at it as a three drop, I'm not impressed by cube standards. Black three and five drops are not exactly deep and it's not better than anything I'm already running in either mode. I realize that the versatility is nice. You draw it early, you got a halfway decent threat. You draw it late, you turn something into a must deal with game winner. I completely get that. I just feel like this is cube and neither mode really lives up to what's expected here. It really just needs something else, IMO. Make it a 3/4 and drop the bestow to 3B. Then I want to test it.
Edit: I thought this card was an uncommon this entire time. At rare this definitely should've been pushed a little further.
...Im guessing it puts it up to the borderline playable range.
I cube with very strong players (most of my play group plays on the pro tour and cubes more than any other format) and the consensus of people I've talked to are that it's just short of inclusion, which makes me question my evaluation.
That's how my group feels as well. It'll fall just short of inclusion. In a bigger cube, I could see slotting it in, but in order to cut in in anything mid-sized or smaller, it needed a bump in some way. Pick one of many, actually, because it's close. With the 4th toughness, I'd be playing it. Probably with a 2B cost too. Or a 2BB Bestow. Close, but neither me or my playgroup have any desire to play it as is.
The 3 drop was ok and the 5 drop was pretty good before, Now the 3 drop is straight bad compared to the new sweet black 3 drops, and the 5 drop... sadly still relatively the same when stacked against its competition.
Correct. Either A) the base creature needs to be close enough to cubeworthy on its own that the bestow is basically a bonus, or B) the bestow needs to be costed aggressively enough to make up for the lackluster creature mode. This guy is just missing something (a small adjustment) to either the quality of the creature OR the cost of the bestow to make it worthwhile. But as it is, I don't see it making its way into small-medium sized cubes. A 2B cost, a 4th toughness, a 4cc bestow ...something. As is, I can pass on it comfortably.
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Anyway am i correct in assuming f i bestow a creature and sac said creature the next turn to stacks this thig can swing?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
That's not the case. It's just that Wizards knows how to appropriately cost the ability. They print it at what it's worth for limited, standard, etc. What I need for the cube is the pushed version. The unfair version. The bestow mistake. Because when it's costed the way it should be costed, it's just too expensive for the cube.
Boon Satyr is much better than this creature, and the bestow proved to be too expensive for the cube (at least for my cube anyways). We need them to push the creature or push the mechanic in order to get a bestow card that will fit in 360-450 card cubes. This guy isn't it. Satyr was closer, but 5 mana is just too much by cube standards.
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I can understand that. You want one of the options to be broken. I see it more as 2 goods giving me the versatility of a solid cube card. I'm never going to be dissapointed by a 3/3 flyer for 1BB, nor evasion +3/+3 and wrath insurance for 3BB, but blacks lack of solid five drops also factors in, as this card fits a niche that not many other cards fill, its not like a white 2 drop or a red 4 drop, blacks 5 drops have the least competition in the entire cube. I currently run shriekmaw.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
FWIW, I think Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, Shadowborn Demon, Bloodgift Demon, and Ob Nixilis, the Fallen are all better options for five drops than this guy.
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I don't need one of the modes to be broken. I just want one of the modes to be close to cubeworthy on its own.
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Not only that, but the second mode ignores the majority of removal and gives you protection against Wraths. That's a 'cubeworthy' effect considering that our cube and most play removal and wraths. I wouldn't cube one of those alone (I'd have considered the base creature, but doubt I'd include it) but together the options swing it for me to give it a run. Maybe each mode is 'fair', but a ton of great cube cards are fair and not broken. In fact, each mode is really rather decent already.
This also fills in two weak slots in black's curve: 3 and 5 drops. I wanted a roleplayer for each, so this gets two jobs done for my black section at once. That's totally swell as far as I'm concerned, and I couldn't be happier to get another Bestow guy. It's a good mechanic.
One more decent Bestow would be a nice addition. A black one-drop counterpart to that 1/2 guy, maybe.
I agree, but they don't have a decently costed body for three mana in the event. I would never run three of those in aggro, and that that point it's like asking: which is better, coffee or duct tape? They're different things for different decks. I'm running Shadowborn Demon and Shriekmaw as the dedicated five drops. I won't usually run a five-drop in my aggro, but I like having an option of a costlier mode on a cheaper base, if the opportunity arises.
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Instantly turning a random ground creature into a game threatening evasive threat that if dealt with produces a 3/3 flyer (a solid clock on its own).
That's verrry close to worth 5 mana in my book, then when you add the option to play it as a 3/3 flyer in a pinch, Im guessing it puts it up to the borderline playable range.
I cube with very strong players (most of my play group plays on the pro tour and cubes more than any other format) and the consensus of people I've talked to are that it's just short of inclusion, which makes me question my evaluation.
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I suppose that's fair. My problem is just that looking at it as a three drop, I'm not impressed by cube standards. Black three and five drops are not exactly deep and it's not better than anything I'm already running in either mode. I realize that the versatility is nice. You draw it early, you got a halfway decent threat. You draw it late, you turn something into a must deal with game winner. I completely get that. I just feel like this is cube and neither mode really lives up to what's expected here. It really just needs something else, IMO. Make it a 3/4 and drop the bestow to 3B. Then I want to test it.
Edit: I thought this card was an uncommon this entire time. At rare this definitely should've been pushed a little further.
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That's how my group feels as well. It'll fall just short of inclusion. In a bigger cube, I could see slotting it in, but in order to cut in in anything mid-sized or smaller, it needed a bump in some way. Pick one of many, actually, because it's close. With the 4th toughness, I'd be playing it. Probably with a 2B cost too. Or a 2BB Bestow. Close, but neither me or my playgroup have any desire to play it as is.
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