Now in UR, i guess that only Kiki/Twin-Decks or Wildfire decks would really benefit greatly from it while all other UR stuff would probably rather have Thirst for Knowledge or other straight up card draw that doesn't show the cards to the opponent while also giving them choices.
It's actually the opposite of this. Combo decks won't want it because you can't grab specific pieces, but decks like counterburn that are full of consistent stuff will love it.
I think the card is really strong, and is easily one of the top 3 Izzet cards. Again, if it's real, of course. That's my only concern about it.
edit: And it's looking more and more fake as the discussion goes on.
It's actually the opposite of this. Combo decks won't want it because you can't grab specific pieces, but decks like counterburn that are full of consistent stuff will love it.
I think the card is really strong, and is easily one of the top 3 Izzet cards. Again, if it's real, of course. That's my only concern about it.
edit: And it's looking more and more fake as the discussion goes on.
It is worrying that it hasn't been thrown on the official spoiler yet. Bummer.
Edit - Also worrying that this is literally the only magic related result on the 1st page of a google search.
Like I say, I like Jace's Ingenuity better than this. Then, I saw post in the Rumor Mill forum, and I agree with the guy that Thoughtflare is probably better than this, too. Yes, 1 mana less is good. But I'll pay 1 more mana to escape Punisher mechanic.
And if it's fake, then I guess all these discussion doesn't matter.
The power level of instant speed draw goes down quite a bit when there are no good counter spells in a format, which is why I think Wizards feels okay printing stuff like this. I hope it's real.
The power level of instant speed draw goes down quite a bit when there are no good counter spells in a format, which is why I think Wizards feels okay printing stuff like this. I hope it's real.
I still think it looks fake but they're saying it looks like it's from a Godbook. I still believe it's fake until it's up on WOTC's site.
That being said I do hope that it's real. Comparing it to other Izzet cards I think it stacks up pretty well. Is it FoF? No. But that doesn't mean it's a bad card. I think I could rank it as high as #2 in Izzet behind Ral. It does exactly what the U/R deck typically wants to do (get more cards). It will even help support the Winker deck we've had some success with recently (Goblin Welder & Tinker). I would definitely put it in my top 4 with Ral, Izzet Charm & Fire//Ice. I really like Electrolyze but if this card is real then I would bump it out. It would be wild to almost completely change the Izzet guild in one year of the Cube.
[Off topic] I can't believe how many standard-legal cards are in my guild section. It's crazy. [/Off Topic]
Like I say, I like Jace's Ingenuity better than this. Then, I saw post in the Rumor Mill forum, and I agree with the guy that Thoughtflare is probably better than this, too. Yes, 1 mana less is good. But I'll pay 1 more mana to escape Punisher mechanic.
I just don't get posts like this. Ingenuity and Thoughtflare better? How so? This card is way more interesting than either of those, and being a mana cheaper is HUGE. And what punisher mechanic are you talking about? This card isn't Browbeat (far from it), and while you miss the opportunity for your opponent to screw up the piles, you get to alter the piles to ensure you are getting things that you want. There is also the fact that you can trick your opponent into giving you the wrong pile, as well.
I am personally stoked to play with this card, and it will likely be one of the best Izzet cards.
I just don't get posts like this. Ingenuity and Thoughtflare better? How so? This card is way more interesting than either of those, and being a mana cheaper is HUGE. And what punisher mechanic are you talking about? This card isn't Browbeat (far from it), and while you miss the opportunity for your opponent to screw up the piles, you get to alter the piles to ensure you are getting things that you want. There is also the fact that you can trick your opponent into giving you the wrong pile, as well.
I am personally stoked to play with this card, and it will likely be one of the best Izzet cards.
-AA
It's punisher mechanic because it put a choice in the opponents hand. Whether a card is interesting than another doesn't matter. Supreme Verdict is boring, but it's good.
4 mana in red and blue is also absolutely packed. 5 mana is a lot more comfy casting cost in these two color. That said, I do know that this card is not bad, but it remains unsure to me whether or not it will give me the card I need at the time. While I have hidden information, the opponent have info on board. This spell is never going to give me a wrath when I need one. And that's a huge drawback.
Lastly, you do know that I say I'll test it over P bolt in the 3rd slot of Izzet guild in my cube, right? I will see how it goes.
Punisher mechanic is 'either they get this thing(s) or you take x damage'...if they don't get their thing(s), you get 'punished'. Browbeat, Vexing Devil, Molten Influence, & Book Burning are examples, not Lili's ultimate/Library of Lat-Nam/Gifts Ungiven.
And I don't care much for curve considerations when it comes to spells like this; the fact that it is one mana cheaper than those other fringe/non-cubables makes it better, not worse. And I think you're looking at the 'if I need a wrath' thing a bit too heavily instead of looking at this as a value spell that is going to be really fun to play and has potential of your opponent screwing it up and giving you the wrong pile.
I don't think this can be compared to Browbeat and its punisher brothers. Browbeat was either draw cards or damage, this is either cards or cards. I like this card because I can sculpt either pile to my advantage, not to mention there's plenty of UR cards that benefit it / other things being in the graveyard like
I hope it's real too. I'm a big fan of cards that challenge the skill of both players.
It'll be interesting to see how counter spells play out in new standard.
Cavern rotating is huge, but the blue decks are also losing snapcaster mage.
Last standard was very mid-range centric, which made the mediocre counter spells especially awsome.. At the start of standard season , people weren't playing caverns and were underestimating syncopate, U/W flash had a couple extremely dominant tournaments as a result.
I guess we should hold out for confirmation on this card. My gut instinct is that it's real, and is probably the candidate to replace Revelation in my Standard decks. As for cube... The opponent getting to choose your pile does not constitute a punisher card, as you still control what's in them. OP makes a good point though that if you really need that wrath, you'll never get it.
And I don't care much for curve considerations when it comes to spells like this; the fact that it is one mana cheaper than those other fringe/non-cubables makes it better, not worse. And I think you're looking at the 'if I need a wrath' thing a bit too heavily instead of looking at this as a value spell that is going to be really fun to play and has potential of your opponent screwing it up and giving you the wrong pile.
-AA
It is a good value spell. It just won't give you what you want at the time that you want it, unless there are two of those in the top 5 card in your library.
It's probably the best draw spell print in the last couples of years, and hence why I'm testing it in the first place. I'm just saying that there are some negative things about this card, and those things will sometimes cost the caster the game.
I think I still rather play with Prophetic Bolt thatn this. I get to kill a creature and I get to choose which card I get.
EDIT: Did not realize its 4cc instead of 5cc. Still, I'd play with the Prophetic Bolt.
I just don't get posts like this. Ingenuity and Thoughtflare better? How so? This card is way more interesting than either of those, and being a mana cheaper is HUGE. And what punisher mechanic are you talking about? This card isn't Browbeat (far from it), and while you miss the opportunity for your opponent to screw up the piles, you get to alter the piles to ensure you are getting things that you want. There is also the fact that you can trick your opponent into giving you the wrong pile, as well.
I am personally stoked to play with this card, and it will likely be one of the best Izzet cards.
-AA
*hugs*
Judging from the picture, it is a very similar card to FoF (though not identical). And in many ways, it's still fantastic.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
If that's real, I'll be amazed that they printed such a powerful draw spell. Will go straight into our cube. Getting to divide the piles yourself means you're very likely to get a good deal out of it even if your opponent chooses which pile you get. It's more narrow than FoF being multi-colored, but it's in the perfect guild and at the same CMC. I'm stoked
Punisher mechanic is 'either they get this thing(s) or you take x damage'...if they don't get their thing(s), you get 'punished'. Browbeat, Vexing Devil, Molten Influence, & Book Burning are examples, not Lili's ultimate/Library of Lat-Nam/Gifts Ungiven.
And I don't care much for curve considerations when it comes to spells like this; the fact that it is one mana cheaper than those other fringe/non-cubables makes it better, not worse. And I think you're looking at the 'if I need a wrath' thing a bit too heavily instead of looking at this as a value spell that is going to be really fun to play and has potential of your opponent screwing it up and giving you the wrong pile.
-AA
Thank you. Not every single playable moment in our cube drafting lives hinges on a top deck.
If you built a proper deck, and a used the best cards your cube allows, the next 5 cards should be hell for your opponent to choose.
I don't understand this mindset. Why would I include cards that are worse and belong in fewer decks than existing cards just so I can say I have a certain number of U/R cards?
Why do you limit the number of blue cards in your cube when its easily better than every other color?
Not every card that gives your opponent a choice is a punisher card. Vexing Devil has a hard time because it allows your opponent to determine how the card will function. If you need board presence, you get burn. If you need reach, you get a body. And that's why the card struggles. This card is different. It will provide the same type of effect every time it is cast. You cast it because you want to draw 2-3 cards that you know will have good synergy with one another, and you always will. You cast it for EOT card advantage, and no matter what, you'll get it. The drawback mechanic much more comparable to something like Intuition or Gifts Ungiven than it is to something like Browbeat or Vexing Devil. The opponent has a choice over the specific cards you'll get, but the card does the same thing every time its cast. Unlike the other punisher cards, you don't lose consistency in function.
And as far as the card quality is concerned, it's great. I mean, really fantastic. Far better than Jace's Ingenuity for a few reasons. First off, the cards you draw are grouped by you in terms of how well they interact with each other, the contents of your hand and the board state. Instead of drawing 3 random cards off the top, you can get draws you know will work with each other and with the other cards in your hand. Not to mention that it costs less mana. This is akin to roughly an instant speed Concentrate, but sometimes even better than that because you can draw cards 1, 3 and 5 together, or cards 2 and 4 together. Which can lead to draws that do a better job of improving the overall quality of your hand.
This card is very likely the 2nd best Izzet card behind Ral Zarek, and I can't wait to put this into pretty much every UR deck I build. Being better than Fact or Fiction is not a hurdle that draw spells have to leap to be good.
Assuming a discrete uniform distribution of the power level and perfect information about the cards' power, the expected value of the power of the piles is going to get split 1.84 : 3.16. In other words: Unless you are relying on your opponent making mistakes, your return is going to be worse than Inspiration.
This seems pretty disingenuous. How can you make the assumption that your opponent will have perfect information about which pile benefits you the least? You don't need to rely on your opponent making a mistake, you simply need to understand that you'll have the better information about which cards benefit your hand the most when making the splits than they do.
And as far as the return goes, in terms of raw CA, even if this was right, it would be just like saying the "return" on Gifts Ungiven is the same as Inspiration, right? 2 cards is 2 cards is 2 cards? Is that what you're assuming here?
But since the piles are divided as you like them, A) your opponent can make "mistakes" because they don't have knowledge of your hand and they will likely be giving you the "wrong" pile most of the time if they're basing their decisions off giving you less cards and B) drawing 2 cards that you know work together is better than randomly drawing 2 off the top.
It's like saying that the expected return is worse with Demonic Tutor than with Night's Whisper, simply because you only get one card instead of two.
..........
Plus, the math doesn't seem remotely right to me, either. It'll usually be a 2/3 split, which should give you a baseline of drawing a minimum of 2 cards with it. The only time it'll be split 4/1 is when the lone card is so game-ending that they have to give you the 4-card pile. I don't see how it can wind up being under 2 drawn cards on average, unless you offer your opponent a bunch of bad 4/1 splits that only net you 1 card a lot of the time, which I think would be a rarity.
Ha. I'm glad you toned that post down wtwlf. But I understand your point - I don't think you can assume that an opponent's knowledge of your hand is either complete or zero. How have you calculated the piles' relative power, eidolon?
The way I see it, let's assume that two of the top 5 are lands. If you really need a given card, you will end up with two lands and two other spells. That's an improvement on Inspiration with will give you ~1.3 spells and two cards max. If you see two beneficial cards, you'll get one of them and probably another land. That is worse than Inspiration's average, but the card quality of the non-land is likely to be best or second-best of three. So I would say that this is usually going to be better even if your opponent gets it right. Feel free to correct me.
Yeah that analysis relies on a lot of assumptions that I don't think are correct. You will always have information your opponent doesn't and if you make a 4-1 split and aren't happy with getting the 1, that's your fault. This card should always be better than inspiration with maybe a few rare exceptions.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
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It's actually the opposite of this. Combo decks won't want it because you can't grab specific pieces, but decks like counterburn that are full of consistent stuff will love it.
I think the card is really strong, and is easily one of the top 3 Izzet cards. Again, if it's real, of course. That's my only concern about it.
edit: And it's looking more and more fake as the discussion goes on.
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It is worrying that it hasn't been thrown on the official spoiler yet. Bummer.
Edit - Also worrying that this is literally the only magic related result on the 1st page of a google search.
Edit 2 - Well, except stuff linking to here.
Edit 3 - Looks like it's quasi confirmed?
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And if it's fake, then I guess all these discussion doesn't matter.
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Every counterspell is good in a format with Sphinx's Revelation and no Cavern of Souls.
I hope it's real too. I'm a big fan of cards that challenge the skill of both players.
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That being said I do hope that it's real. Comparing it to other Izzet cards I think it stacks up pretty well. Is it FoF? No. But that doesn't mean it's a bad card. I think I could rank it as high as #2 in Izzet behind Ral. It does exactly what the U/R deck typically wants to do (get more cards). It will even help support the Winker deck we've had some success with recently (Goblin Welder & Tinker). I would definitely put it in my top 4 with Ral, Izzet Charm & Fire//Ice. I really like Electrolyze but if this card is real then I would bump it out. It would be wild to almost completely change the Izzet guild in one year of the Cube.
[Off topic] I can't believe how many standard-legal cards are in my guild section. It's crazy. [/Off Topic]
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I just don't get posts like this. Ingenuity and Thoughtflare better? How so? This card is way more interesting than either of those, and being a mana cheaper is HUGE. And what punisher mechanic are you talking about? This card isn't Browbeat (far from it), and while you miss the opportunity for your opponent to screw up the piles, you get to alter the piles to ensure you are getting things that you want. There is also the fact that you can trick your opponent into giving you the wrong pile, as well.
I am personally stoked to play with this card, and it will likely be one of the best Izzet cards.
-AA
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It's punisher mechanic because it put a choice in the opponents hand. Whether a card is interesting than another doesn't matter. Supreme Verdict is boring, but it's good.
4 mana in red and blue is also absolutely packed. 5 mana is a lot more comfy casting cost in these two color. That said, I do know that this card is not bad, but it remains unsure to me whether or not it will give me the card I need at the time. While I have hidden information, the opponent have info on board. This spell is never going to give me a wrath when I need one. And that's a huge drawback.
Lastly, you do know that I say I'll test it over P bolt in the 3rd slot of Izzet guild in my cube, right? I will see how it goes.
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And I don't care much for curve considerations when it comes to spells like this; the fact that it is one mana cheaper than those other fringe/non-cubables makes it better, not worse. And I think you're looking at the 'if I need a wrath' thing a bit too heavily instead of looking at this as a value spell that is going to be really fun to play and has potential of your opponent screwing it up and giving you the wrong pile.
-AA
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It'll be interesting to see how counter spells play out in new standard.
Cavern rotating is huge, but the blue decks are also losing snapcaster mage.
Last standard was very mid-range centric, which made the mediocre counter spells especially awsome.. At the start of standard season , people weren't playing caverns and were underestimating syncopate, U/W flash had a couple extremely dominant tournaments as a result.
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I guess we should hold out for confirmation on this card. My gut instinct is that it's real, and is probably the candidate to replace Revelation in my Standard decks. As for cube... The opponent getting to choose your pile does not constitute a punisher card, as you still control what's in them. OP makes a good point though that if you really need that wrath, you'll never get it.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
It is a good value spell. It just won't give you what you want at the time that you want it, unless there are two of those in the top 5 card in your library.
It's probably the best draw spell print in the last couples of years, and hence why I'm testing it in the first place. I'm just saying that there are some negative things about this card, and those things will sometimes cost the caster the game.
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EDIT: Did not realize its 4cc instead of 5cc. Still, I'd play with the Prophetic Bolt.
*hugs*
Judging from the picture, it is a very similar card to FoF (though not identical). And in many ways, it's still fantastic.
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Thank you. Not every single playable moment in our cube drafting lives hinges on a top deck.
If you built a proper deck, and a used the best cards your cube allows, the next 5 cards should be hell for your opponent to choose.
Why do you limit the number of blue cards in your cube when its easily better than every other color?
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And as far as the card quality is concerned, it's great. I mean, really fantastic. Far better than Jace's Ingenuity for a few reasons. First off, the cards you draw are grouped by you in terms of how well they interact with each other, the contents of your hand and the board state. Instead of drawing 3 random cards off the top, you can get draws you know will work with each other and with the other cards in your hand. Not to mention that it costs less mana. This is akin to roughly an instant speed Concentrate, but sometimes even better than that because you can draw cards 1, 3 and 5 together, or cards 2 and 4 together. Which can lead to draws that do a better job of improving the overall quality of your hand.
This card is very likely the 2nd best Izzet card behind Ral Zarek, and I can't wait to put this into pretty much every UR deck I build. Being better than Fact or Fiction is not a hurdle that draw spells have to leap to be good.
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And 4 is way less than 5 mama in my u/r decks. Especially to hold up on my opponents turn.
Is it as good as f or f, no, but it doesn't need to be.
This seems pretty disingenuous. How can you make the assumption that your opponent will have perfect information about which pile benefits you the least? You don't need to rely on your opponent making a mistake, you simply need to understand that you'll have the better information about which cards benefit your hand the most when making the splits than they do.
And as far as the return goes, in terms of raw CA, even if this was right, it would be just like saying the "return" on Gifts Ungiven is the same as Inspiration, right? 2 cards is 2 cards is 2 cards? Is that what you're assuming here?
But since the piles are divided as you like them, A) your opponent can make "mistakes" because they don't have knowledge of your hand and they will likely be giving you the "wrong" pile most of the time if they're basing their decisions off giving you less cards and B) drawing 2 cards that you know work together is better than randomly drawing 2 off the top.
It's like saying that the expected return is worse with Demonic Tutor than with Night's Whisper, simply because you only get one card instead of two.
..........
Plus, the math doesn't seem remotely right to me, either. It'll usually be a 2/3 split, which should give you a baseline of drawing a minimum of 2 cards with it. The only time it'll be split 4/1 is when the lone card is so game-ending that they have to give you the 4-card pile. I don't see how it can wind up being under 2 drawn cards on average, unless you offer your opponent a bunch of bad 4/1 splits that only net you 1 card a lot of the time, which I think would be a rarity.
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The way I see it, let's assume that two of the top 5 are lands. If you really need a given card, you will end up with two lands and two other spells. That's an improvement on Inspiration with will give you ~1.3 spells and two cards max. If you see two beneficial cards, you'll get one of them and probably another land. That is worse than Inspiration's average, but the card quality of the non-land is likely to be best or second-best of three. So I would say that this is usually going to be better even if your opponent gets it right. Feel free to correct me.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms: