Hahahha thank goodness there are people like you my doggy pal!
I actually think most people are underestimating this card, but I also think it just looks like a really interesting card to get in a couple games with.
I doubt anyone here is going to modify their cube in a way that suits playing cards like this, but I'm glad there are some folks here that are excited to throw in a card that looks interesting, seems hard to evaluate and feels like it might have misunderstood potential. I'm not sure how it will stack up in MAXPOWER cubes, and I'm not sure how many people are interested in moving away from that, but the question is super interesting.
In an environment where all your cards are super good and people insist on singleton, mill is a really hard thing to read, but of course, the 2nd ability will pretty much always have access to what amounts to a bunch of awesome cards when you decide to get it rolling.
In an environment where all your cards are super good and people insist on singleton, mill is a really hard thing to read, but of course, the 2nd ability will pretty much always have access to what amounts to a bunch of awesome cards when you decide to get it rolling.
I don't think singleton changes the way milling fundamentally works. And because of that, I disagree you'll "always have access to a bunch of awesome cards." You might turn over an expensive creature you can't use in time. You might turn over three lands. You might turn over an instant, an enchantment, and an artifact. You might turn over grim lavamancer or student of warfare, or uktabi orangutan with no artifacts on your opponent's board. Or kor sanctifiers with a sword on the other side of the table. Lets say you miss the first time and hit the second. That means you spent three mana and two colors on a card that gets you a creature that can attack and use abilities for the first time on turn 6. The majority of the creatures in the average cube aren't good enough to make that worth it.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
What I'm saying is that all those cards are great! I guess they are great in abstract bubble unless they are like savannah lions, which are less great, and more of a necessity. And at the end of the day, being great in abstract doesn't make you worth a damn in some matches.
I'm saying regardless of all the dumb wanting to hit creatures business, you are generally going to be sorta happy you milled because you are hitting something awesome every time because cube cards rule. It doesn't really matter all of the time because THE REST of their cards are pretty good, but cube is also a heavy tutor environment so it's sorta relevant. I also totes don't mind hitting ****ty critters with that card because, well, they're extra cards, and it's super hard to deal 5 damage to a pw in many games, or if you are playing to win with the rest of your cards.
: )
What I'm saying is that all those cards are great! I guess they are great in abstract bubble unless they are like savannah lions, which are less great, and more of a necessity. And at the end of the day, being great in abstract doesn't make you worth a damn in some matches.
I'm saying regardless of all the dumb wanting to hit creatures business, you are generally going to be sorta happy you milled because you are hitting something awesome every time because cube cards rule. It doesn't really matter all of the time because THE REST of their cards are pretty good, but cube is also a heavy tutor environment so it's sorta relevant. I also totes don't mind hitting ****ty critters with that card because, well, they're extra cards, and it's super hard to deal 5 damage to a pw in many games, or if you are playing to win with the rest of your cards.
: )
You don't know that you are going to hit anything good ever when you mill them. What if you hit their clump of basic lands and then put their good cards on top of the library?
Man you could be right! It would be awful hitting anything but islands. Islands I'd be okay to hit. Islands are a great card. I assume eventually I'm going to be hitting some good cards, unless they are just never drawing good cards, because I'm probably seeing 3 of his cards for every 1 he sees kitten.
Milling doesn't have a statistical impact on the quality of cards they draw. For each time you make their draw worse, you have an equal chance of making their draw better on the next activation.
Milling to hit their good cards is a losing proposition, and has nothing but anecdotal evidence to support it.
I'm seeing more of their cards than they are, assuming cubes are made up of good cards, I'm seeing some good cards dearies. Probz more of them than the kitten across from me.
Anyway I don't need to enable this six page monstrosity any longer. If you guys wana agree with eachother about how much better strix is and how you'll never need to play this card, I'm fine. I'm just hoping one of my friends has a different attitude because I think this card is super exciting and I won't be putting it in my PEZ cube or the rare slot pile.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
It's because we're talking about milling, and THAT debate has went on for such a legendary number of pages that it should be put in the library of congress.
This is why I run all Planeswalkers in their own section instead of with their color(s). I don't detract from the multicolor sections that are super tight, and get to play with "narrower" walkers.
It's because we're talking about milling, and THAT debate has went on for such a legendary number of pages that it should be put in the library of congress.
every time we see a potentially cubable mill card I try to avoid the threads at all costs. The general consensus seems to be that if it can't mill for 10 multiple times it isn't worth trying to mill anyone out. I more or less agree with that.
I don't think this card has potential as a mill engine, but it does look like a lot of fun. I think my 4th dimir card is dimir charm right now, so I'll give this fellow a shot if I don't have to pay for him.
Dimir is freakin' stacked with at least 6 cards that I think are leagues better than this 'walker (and that doesn't even include the mana rocks!). I can't imagine how big my cube would need to be to cube this card. Probably at least 900 cards.
I can't imagine how big my cube would need to be to cube this card. Probably at least 900 cards.
900, man. Tell us how you really feel.
This card has some interesting scenarios that have me pretty excited to test it. It also happens to be a planeswalker which are notoriously difficult to evaluate which means that 100% of them are tested regardless of public opinion. I am optimistic that this does more than just gain some life and mill a few cards.
She's definitely a tough card to evaluate but I got to see her in action several times tonight. My teammate had her in his deck & I caught glimpses of a few times where she was on the board. One time he grabbed a Fiend Hunter with her when he needed a defender and the other time he grabbed a Hellrider with her when he had otherwise cleared the board. Both times she was still in play while these creatures were out. Overall he said she did pretty well for him. A small sample size but for a lot of us this is all we get for new cards.
I think she'll be a pretty solid card for Cubes & definitely an interesting one (if that's something you put a high premium on in your Cube). I'm deciding if she's worth creating a 5th UB spot in my 540 Cube (behind Tog, Finkel, Seer & Strix).
Amazing art, love the flavor, love the color pair, Amazing CMC
This card is hard to evaluate. I think it will do amazing well in a standard rogue deck and the price will shoot through the roof.
In cube we have better options in the Dimir guild and most of the time casting her will just exile 3 cards from your opponents deck and net you a turn of possibly not being attacked.
All in all I want to use her, but see no spot for her in my 450 cube.
This card has some interesting scenarios that have me pretty excited to test it. It also happens to be a planeswalker which are notoriously difficult to evaluate which means that 100% of them are tested regardless of public opinion. I am optimistic that this does more than just gain some life and mill a few cards.
Hey, if I still had a 900 cube, I would play the crap out of this card. I would even retool the cube so I could play Sanity Grinding with it
P.S. Ashiok I'm really happy for you and Imma let you finish, but Nemesis of Reason is the best Dimir miller of all time
I just want to say I really enjoy your attitude and general weirdness in this thread, fooligan. Did you just call cuttups "kitten"?
Hahhaha thanks! I kinda find the atmosphere in forums like this (or with magic players in general) gets a little bit edgy and brusk, so I like to get a little overly familiar and air-headish as my own way of compensating. I remember when wtwlf123 first remarked on my use of the word "totes" it put a big smile on my face.
I think this card could be super fun to play with. I think it might struggle more in maxpower sort of environments but I think it would still be very fine and enjoyable. It's not doing too much when it comes down and that scares people, but it's sorta like suspend recursive bribery that will probably also be gaining you life. Of course it gives your opponents options and so you have a hard line argument about what I'm wrong about everything forever, but please remember I'm not really evaluating this card merely on it's powerlevel and I don't think it's wise to write off cards that seem like they'd be interesting and zany and fun in favor of designing around things that you believe will be the most consistently bomby and unfair plays.
We opted to keep Dimir Charm in instead of this new PW. I've been pushing tempo as the archetype for UB and surprisingly Charm does good work there. Replacing it with Ashiok would be taking away a tool from that deck.
If this PW turns out to be bonkers later, I reconsider finding a slot.
Well I got to try him/her/it/them out and anecdotal evidence isn't the best, but it put a thrun up to defend itself and charged up. I'm still enamored with it.
I have a night's worth of testing in with Ashiok and I think it's more than good enough. In about 5 games, its kill count sits at two. It ramps up very quickly in colors that are able to protect it. Even against an aggressive draw, the minus ability is very doable and still allows your PW to stick around. I definitely expect this to pop up in more lists.
I have a night's worth of testing in with Ashiok and I think it's more than good enough. In about 5 games, its kill count sits at two. It ramps up very quickly in colors that are able to protect it. Even against an aggressive draw, the minus ability is very doable and still allows your PW to stick around. I definitely expect this to pop up in more lists.
How often did it fail to pull a creature with the first exile?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I'm surprised nobody has stepped in and pointed out that Ashiok is just a very effeminate guy, not a woman. I guess Nof only points out when women are being identified as men and not the other way around?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
I actually think most people are underestimating this card, but I also think it just looks like a really interesting card to get in a couple games with.
I doubt anyone here is going to modify their cube in a way that suits playing cards like this, but I'm glad there are some folks here that are excited to throw in a card that looks interesting, seems hard to evaluate and feels like it might have misunderstood potential. I'm not sure how it will stack up in MAXPOWER cubes, and I'm not sure how many people are interested in moving away from that, but the question is super interesting.
In an environment where all your cards are super good and people insist on singleton, mill is a really hard thing to read, but of course, the 2nd ability will pretty much always have access to what amounts to a bunch of awesome cards when you decide to get it rolling.
Cube talk, design community and much much more!
I don't think singleton changes the way milling fundamentally works. And because of that, I disagree you'll "always have access to a bunch of awesome cards." You might turn over an expensive creature you can't use in time. You might turn over three lands. You might turn over an instant, an enchantment, and an artifact. You might turn over grim lavamancer or student of warfare, or uktabi orangutan with no artifacts on your opponent's board. Or kor sanctifiers with a sword on the other side of the table. Lets say you miss the first time and hit the second. That means you spent three mana and two colors on a card that gets you a creature that can attack and use abilities for the first time on turn 6. The majority of the creatures in the average cube aren't good enough to make that worth it.
I'm saying regardless of all the dumb wanting to hit creatures business, you are generally going to be sorta happy you milled because you are hitting something awesome every time because cube cards rule. It doesn't really matter all of the time because THE REST of their cards are pretty good, but cube is also a heavy tutor environment so it's sorta relevant. I also totes don't mind hitting ****ty critters with that card because, well, they're extra cards, and it's super hard to deal 5 damage to a pw in many games, or if you are playing to win with the rest of your cards.
: )
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You don't know that you are going to hit anything good ever when you mill them. What if you hit their clump of basic lands and then put their good cards on top of the library?
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Milling to hit their good cards is a losing proposition, and has nothing but anecdotal evidence to support it.
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Anyway I don't need to enable this six page monstrosity any longer. If you guys wana agree with eachother about how much better strix is and how you'll never need to play this card, I'm fine. I'm just hoping one of my friends has a different attitude because I think this card is super exciting and I won't be putting it in my PEZ cube or the rare slot pile.
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It's because we're talking about milling, and THAT debate has went on for such a legendary number of pages that it should be put in the library of congress.
every time we see a potentially cubable mill card I try to avoid the threads at all costs. The general consensus seems to be that if it can't mill for 10 multiple times it isn't worth trying to mill anyone out. I more or less agree with that.
I don't think this card has potential as a mill engine, but it does look like a lot of fun. I think my 4th dimir card is dimir charm right now, so I'll give this fellow a shot if I don't have to pay for him.
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This card has some interesting scenarios that have me pretty excited to test it. It also happens to be a planeswalker which are notoriously difficult to evaluate which means that 100% of them are tested regardless of public opinion. I am optimistic that this does more than just gain some life and mill a few cards.
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I think she'll be a pretty solid card for Cubes & definitely an interesting one (if that's something you put a high premium on in your Cube). I'm deciding if she's worth creating a 5th UB spot in my 540 Cube (behind Tog, Finkel, Seer & Strix).
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Amazing art, love the flavor, love the color pair, Amazing CMC
This card is hard to evaluate. I think it will do amazing well in a standard rogue deck and the price will shoot through the roof.
In cube we have better options in the Dimir guild and most of the time casting her will just exile 3 cards from your opponents deck and net you a turn of possibly not being attacked.
All in all I want to use her, but see no spot for her in my 450 cube.
Hey, if I still had a 900 cube, I would play the crap out of this card. I would even retool the cube so I could play Sanity Grinding with it
P.S. Ashiok I'm really happy for you and Imma let you finish, but Nemesis of Reason is the best Dimir miller of all time
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Hahhaha thanks! I kinda find the atmosphere in forums like this (or with magic players in general) gets a little bit edgy and brusk, so I like to get a little overly familiar and air-headish as my own way of compensating. I remember when wtwlf123 first remarked on my use of the word "totes" it put a big smile on my face.
I think this card could be super fun to play with. I think it might struggle more in maxpower sort of environments but I think it would still be very fine and enjoyable. It's not doing too much when it comes down and that scares people, but it's sorta like suspend recursive bribery that will probably also be gaining you life. Of course it gives your opponents options and so you have a hard line argument about what I'm wrong about everything forever, but please remember I'm not really evaluating this card merely on it's powerlevel and I don't think it's wise to write off cards that seem like they'd be interesting and zany and fun in favor of designing around things that you believe will be the most consistently bomby and unfair plays.
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If this PW turns out to be bonkers later, I reconsider finding a slot.
360 Uncommons only Cube!
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How often did it fail to pull a creature with the first exile?
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