When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
To be fair, I think the random element to this card plays a much bigger role in its evaluation than it does for something like Savannah Lions. With the Lion, drawing it late is bad, but the card itself is super consistent. If you draw it and play it when you're supposed to, it'll provide relatively the same value each game. And that reliability has value. With Ashiok, even if you play her on curve, you not only deal with the randomness of the game state and your opponent's board, but also the randomness of the contents and order of their library. You're not even guaranteed to hit a creature with a timely activation, and even if you do, you might not be able to cast if if she takes a little counter-damage. The way I see her is that you'll try to hit a creature you can cast, and hope she remains unchallenged on the board so you can cast it. So if you're averaging a creature that costs 2-3 mana before she's attacked down (or maybe it's the only creature available) I'd rather be using a creature that I know fits the gameplan of the rest of my deck, and a card that I can get immediate value out of. Basically, I'd rather run my own creature than this planeswalker. I think too many factors need to fall into place to expect to reliably get anything of more value than your own perfectly matching 3-drop out of this card. Just my ...well, probably more than $0.02.
Can you elaborate? How can you build your deck to guarantee value with this guy?
That's not really the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that evaluating a planeswalker solely on basis of "does it protect itself" or "does it provide an immediate impact" doesn't provide a holistic enough perspective to make a difinitive judgement on the card, which is an argument I've seen used many times to dismiss a planeswalker. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas can be, and often is, accused of the same faults, and yet it has found a home in a number of cubes.
I don't think it's enough to say "no protection, no guaranteed immediate value" without addressing the full potential the card offers when set up and how likely that kind of set up is.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Is Geth a fair comparison of related abilities. The whole mill x , revive some of them, and it is a creature and doesn't even get cubed with all that much anymore. Comparison I mean, in defense of why this card isn't all that special for cube.
Is Geth a fair comparison of related abilities. The whole mill x , revive some of them, and it is a creature and doesn't even get cubed with all that much anymore. Comparison I mean, in defense of why this card isn't all that special for cube.
She seems more like Nephalia Drownyard. Kills at the same rate, and you can get some value off of it.
She's almost certainly not good enough for cube. It's not like U/B decks have a shortage of value cards or control finishers. (And she's not particularly great at either.) The only real advantage for her is that she's cheap, and you really get what you pay for with this one. Her ultimate is strong, but not easy to get to.
"It doesn't protect itself, therefore it isn't good." or "No immediate impact, therefore it's worthless." isn't always the best line of thinking for evaluating a planeswalker.
While I agree that blind yes/no questions like the terminate test shouldn't be the sum total of card evaluation, those two questions seem like a pretty effective place to start. Can you name a good planeswalker that fails both?
Guys, I'd love a 3 mana dimir walker. This guy has awesome art and truthfully, I find the cubeable dimir cards well below the quality of the choices in most other guilds. But these arguments aren't convincing me. Sure, he could mill a creature you want and can cast off his - that's worth your investment. But he also might not. That's how milling works. If you think flipping the coin is worth it, why aren't we all running glimpse the unthinkable? That could totally mill ten cards they need to win!
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
While I agree that blind yes/no questions like the terminate test shouldn't be the sum total of card evaluation, those two questions seem like a pretty effective place to start. Can you name a good planeswalker that fails both?
Guys, I'd love a 3 mana dimir walker. This guy has awesome art and truthfully, I find the cubeable dimir cards well below the quality of the choices in most other guilds. But these arguments aren't convincing me. Sure, he could mill a creature you want and can cast off his - that's worth your investment. But he also might not. That's how milling works. If you think flipping the coin is worth it, why aren't we all running glimpse the unthinkable? That could totally mill ten cards they need to win!
the trick to a good mill card, Jace beleren, Jace, Memory Adept, This card. is that they either do something else, like jace belerens first two abilities, or they can mill an opponent by themselves, because its a parasitic mechanic. This card mills yes, but it also threatens the board while milling and stalling for at least a turn. I don't know about you but in a blue black or esper deck I would love to be able to sit back, protect a walker and let it cast all the threats i need for me. Whenever a creature gets printed people say it will die to removal and do nothing, whenever a planeswalker is printed its like no removal exists in cube.
the trick to a good mill card, Jace beleren, Jace, Memory Adept, This card. is that they either do something else, like jace belerens first two abilities, or they can mill an opponent by themselves, because its a parasitic mechanic. This card mills yes, but it also threatens the board while milling and stalling for at least a turn. I don't know about you but in a blue black or esper deck I would love to be able to sit back, protect a walker and let it cast all the threats i need for me. Whenever a creature gets printed people say it will die to removal and do nothing, whenever a planeswalker is printed its like no removal exists in cube.
But maybe it doesn't get threats, or it gets threats that aren't worth your investment. That's how milling works.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I'm probably going to test it out, but I'm not super excited about it.
Also, am I the only one who looks at the name of the card and giggles because Ashok is a fairly common Indian name and think that the person who created the name of Ashiok probably either just slightly changed it or had a typo?
But maybe it doesn't get threats, or it gets threats that aren't worth your investment. That's how milling works.
Maybe jace the mindsculptor brainstorms up nothing. Maybe they have small creatures out, and an unsummon wouldnt really help.
Nothing in this game is 100% consistent but when at least a third of decks are creatures and you mill 3, the chances you get something is pretty good. if not, you are a control deck so just protect it and wait another turn.
But maybe it doesn't get threats, or it gets threats that aren't worth your investment. That's how milling works.
Yeah, that's how the entire game works... The only thing we can go from is the average, worst and best case.
Worst: 3 lands
Best: An aether adept, mana elf you need, knight or other low cost powerful creature you need.
Avr: get a 1-3 drop (most decks have about 10 creatures total in these costs). It's random so sometimes you can use it and sometimes you need to spin the wheel again.
If you can protect and ultimate it, you suddenly have plenty of options as well with the second and third abilities interaction.
Does this card compare favorably to divination? Are two random cards from your U/B deck probably better than 1 of 3 random cards from your opponents deck?
Maybe jace the mindsculptor brainstorms up nothing. Maybe they have small creatures out, and an unsummon wouldnt really help.
but you're still a card up and you gained information. please someone find me a good cube card that can potentially give you no value for the cost. at least baneslayer is going to have to eat a card the majority of the time so you're not down one to your opponent. this guy might spend three turns doing literally nothing, and i don't want to pay 3 mana in two colors and get nothing. if i wanted to do that, i'd play stitch in time, which at least lets me use a coin.
i just don't think the average case scenario is that you get what you pay for. you spend mana and tempo protecting this guy and if all he gets you is a few weenies, it's still not worth it. he isn't inevitability, CA, tempo, he doesn't necessarily affect your opponent's game at all.
Does this card compare favorably to divination? Are two random cards from your U/B deck probably better than 1 of 3 random cards from your opponents deck?
personally i'd rather have the guaranteed CA, but you can't discount the fact that this guy can repeat. you could potentially get a creature every two turns. i doubt that's going to happen often, but it's possible. kind of like it's possible i win 5 flips in a row with ral zarek.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
but you're still a card up and you gained information. please someone find me a good cube card that can potentially give you no value for the cost. at least baneslayer is going to have to eat a card the majority of the time so you're not down one to your opponent. this guy might spend three turns doing literally nothing, and i don't want to pay 3 mana in two colors and get nothing. if i wanted to do that, i'd play stitch in time, which at least lets me use a coin.
i just don't think the average case scenario is that you get what you pay for. you spend mana and tempo protecting this guy and if all he gets you is a few weenies, it's still not worth it. he isn't inevitability, CA, tempo, he doesn't necessarily affect your opponent's game at all.
personally i'd rather have the guaranteed CA, but you can't discount the fact that this guy can repeat. you could potentially get a creature every two turns. i doubt that's going to happen often, but it's possible. kind of like it's possible i win 5 flips in a row with ral zarek.
If he gets you a weenie and is still milling, thats called card advantage. He is inevitability. especially if you are in a control deck. Definitely a tempo loss so you are right on that part, but 5 life isnt that horrible of a tempo swing. Garruk wildspeaker can give you no value for the cost. Say you have 32 dudes out and want to overrun next turn, but bramblecrush or worse unblockable creature! oh no you overall just tapped 2 lands! I think you are looking at this as WCS every time and its just really odd. This card is leagues better then stitch in time.
Garruk always gives you some value, and you take the board state and your knowledge of an opponents deck into account when you decide which ability to use (garruk has more than one option, unlike this guy who gives you no choice the turn you play him). Oh, and if your opponent uses a kill spell you're still at card parity.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Can you elaborate? How can you build your deck to guarantee value with this guy?
Walls! And/or Time Ebb.
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Depending on your luck Savannah Lions may provide no value at all - if you draw it turn 6.
It's ni argument at all in magic - a game of randomness.
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That's not really the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that evaluating a planeswalker solely on basis of "does it protect itself" or "does it provide an immediate impact" doesn't provide a holistic enough perspective to make a difinitive judgement on the card, which is an argument I've seen used many times to dismiss a planeswalker. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas can be, and often is, accused of the same faults, and yet it has found a home in a number of cubes.
I don't think it's enough to say "no protection, no guaranteed immediate value" without addressing the full potential the card offers when set up and how likely that kind of set up is.
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Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas has two ways to either immediately create a board presence or generate card parity. I don't think it's the same at all.
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She seems more like Nephalia Drownyard. Kills at the same rate, and you can get some value off of it.
She's almost certainly not good enough for cube. It's not like U/B decks have a shortage of value cards or control finishers. (And she's not particularly great at either.) The only real advantage for her is that she's cheap, and you really get what you pay for with this one. Her ultimate is strong, but not easy to get to.
While I agree that blind yes/no questions like the terminate test shouldn't be the sum total of card evaluation, those two questions seem like a pretty effective place to start. Can you name a good planeswalker that fails both?
Guys, I'd love a 3 mana dimir walker. This guy has awesome art and truthfully, I find the cubeable dimir cards well below the quality of the choices in most other guilds. But these arguments aren't convincing me. Sure, he could mill a creature you want and can cast off his - that's worth your investment. But he also might not. That's how milling works. If you think flipping the coin is worth it, why aren't we all running glimpse the unthinkable? That could totally mill ten cards they need to win!
the trick to a good mill card, Jace beleren, Jace, Memory Adept, This card. is that they either do something else, like jace belerens first two abilities, or they can mill an opponent by themselves, because its a parasitic mechanic. This card mills yes, but it also threatens the board while milling and stalling for at least a turn. I don't know about you but in a blue black or esper deck I would love to be able to sit back, protect a walker and let it cast all the threats i need for me. Whenever a creature gets printed people say it will die to removal and do nothing, whenever a planeswalker is printed its like no removal exists in cube.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Seriously? I think it's stacked, and I think there's several great cards that I have to exclude due to the quality of the ones in the cube. Crazy.
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But maybe it doesn't get threats, or it gets threats that aren't worth your investment. That's how milling works.
Also, am I the only one who looks at the name of the card and giggles because Ashok is a fairly common Indian name and think that the person who created the name of Ashiok probably either just slightly changed it or had a typo?
...A-anyone?
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Maybe jace the mindsculptor brainstorms up nothing. Maybe they have small creatures out, and an unsummon wouldnt really help.
Nothing in this game is 100% consistent but when at least a third of decks are creatures and you mill 3, the chances you get something is pretty good. if not, you are a control deck so just protect it and wait another turn.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
40x Ashiok
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Yeah, that's how the entire game works... The only thing we can go from is the average, worst and best case.
Worst: 3 lands
Best: An aether adept, mana elf you need, knight or other low cost powerful creature you need.
Avr: get a 1-3 drop (most decks have about 10 creatures total in these costs). It's random so sometimes you can use it and sometimes you need to spin the wheel again.
If you can protect and ultimate it, you suddenly have plenty of options as well with the second and third abilities interaction.
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but you're still a card up and you gained information. please someone find me a good cube card that can potentially give you no value for the cost. at least baneslayer is going to have to eat a card the majority of the time so you're not down one to your opponent. this guy might spend three turns doing literally nothing, and i don't want to pay 3 mana in two colors and get nothing. if i wanted to do that, i'd play stitch in time, which at least lets me use a coin.
i just don't think the average case scenario is that you get what you pay for. you spend mana and tempo protecting this guy and if all he gets you is a few weenies, it's still not worth it. he isn't inevitability, CA, tempo, he doesn't necessarily affect your opponent's game at all.
personally i'd rather have the guaranteed CA, but you can't discount the fact that this guy can repeat. you could potentially get a creature every two turns. i doubt that's going to happen often, but it's possible. kind of like it's possible i win 5 flips in a row with ral zarek.
If he gets you a weenie and is still milling, thats called card advantage. He is inevitability. especially if you are in a control deck. Definitely a tempo loss so you are right on that part, but 5 life isnt that horrible of a tempo swing. Garruk wildspeaker can give you no value for the cost. Say you have 32 dudes out and want to overrun next turn, but bramblecrush or worse unblockable creature! oh no you overall just tapped 2 lands! I think you are looking at this as WCS every time and its just really odd. This card is leagues better then stitch in time.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
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