It's not here yet, but do people like the idea of a UW scry land more than Azorius Chancery? The chancery performed really well for me in the finals of my last cube draft... when my opponent played it and I followed up with Molten Rain
Edit: I read a couple of the rumor mill pages about these cards. Looks like Magic is dead. Again.
Yeah, I like these as my fourth dual in the enemy colored control pairs in place of the bouncelands. I like card advantage as much as the next person, but in a cube with wasteland, strip mine, avalanche riders, pillage, molten rain, cloudskate, venser, and acidic slime in it, the bouncelands are a liability as much as they are a benefit.
I wish they caused lifeloss instead of coming into play tapped. Aggressive decks would've loved to have lands that can use scry to guarantee gas and provide mana right away.
No. Don't be ridiculous. They wouldn't be fetchable, they wouldn't be able to come into play tapped to mitigate the lifeloss, and they'd cause you to lose life every time you tap them.
Coming into play tapped is a pretty huge downside...
This. That's why this cycle is lackluster. Shock lands are great because they can potentially be untapped (and fetched for specifically). Late rumors about horizon canopy-type lands got all excited... next year perhaps :/
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
You don't need 4 guild cycles at 360. With 3 cycles per guild and the other manafixing lands (City, Coliseum, etc) you have enough fixing for a cube that size. I wouldn't run a 4th per pair until 450.
I am convinced these are the best lands for cube since the WWK manlands. They have similar utility as fetches: you can play them in mono or multi-color decks and they have cool interactions with other cards. At this point I can't imagine picking a filter or buddy land over a Scry land of the same color. Anyone else testing these? Are you having similar experiences or am I just experiencing new card coolness?
I might try them out over the Rav bouncelands, but the pairs I play those in--Simic and Izzet--really like the ramp. They aren't squeezing out any of my other lands, which in most cases are the manlands or the painlands.
I replaced a few filters/buddy lands to make room for all five. I only have a few drafts under my belt with them, but they're a great deal better than I thought they would be.
I've played a LOT with these lands in standard, and the coming into play tapped 100% is a pretty vicious draw back for scry 1 (which is sweet tho).
They are lands where you want a small number of them in decks with ineffecient mana curves, but are quite a bit worse in decks that have a smoother curve starting at turn 1.
Agro in particular.
Id consider playing them in large cubes, but no higher.
I've played a LOT with these lands in standard, and the coming into play tapped 100% is a pretty vicious draw back for scry 1 (which is sweet tho).
They are lands where you want a small number of them in decks with ineffecient mana curves, but are quite a bit worse in decks that have a smoother curve starting at turn 1.
Agro in particular.
Id consider playing them in large cubes, but no higher.
Thats how I view them. I think they are good, but I would not run the ones in aggro color pairs. Boros and Rakdos in particular. Im not running Gruul either, since its either aggro or wants a turn one mana dork.
I'm trying Temple of Mystery, Temple of Triumph and Temple of Silence in my 720 list. They're decent, and the Scry is sweet, but the ETBT hurts sometimes, particularly in aggro colors. Temple of Mystery, though, is the best one of the bunch so far; particularly on a UG ramp build.
I have considered them for Azorius (not printed yet) and Dimir, as these pairs are IMO the ones that would benefit the most from Scry 1 while not suffering too much from ETB tapped, and then remembered Creeping Tar Pit and Celestial Colonnade existed.
The pairs that these are most likely to show up in are UG and UR, because they're blue and thus benefit the most, but they are also enemy colored so they don't have the manlands. Even then, you've probably got to have at least a 540, if not a 630 or 720 before these really become serious contenders.
Which is a shame. I like these lands a lot because they do something more than just provide/fix mana, which only the Manduals have done thus far.
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Yeah I think that I'd prefer the filter, pain or bounce lands all before including these.
Personally I'd say it goes:
ABU > Fetch > Shock > Mandual > Filter > Fastland ~= Checkland > These ~= Pain > Bounce.
Some people value the bouncelands more highly but I don't particularly like them. Manduals and Fastlands are only in allied combinations, meaning these are probably about the 6-7th best land for enemy combinations, which puts it in contention for those at 630, but for aggro enemy combinations like RW and BW, I'd take Painlands over them, meaning they'd only show up in UR, UG, and maybe GB. At 720 I'd probably play them in every enemy color pair.
I might use them as stand-ins for the enemy colored mirage fetches until they actually get printed. (If they ever do!)
Mirage fetches I'd put under or near bouncelands, since they're similarly slow and don't offer any great reward. That makes them ~10-11th in allied pairs and theoretical enemy ones would be ~8-9th, and either way I wouldn't really run them.
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I would have loved for these lands to be scry 2. It would have meant 10 auto includes and I expect them to still not have been overpowered.
As it stands scry 1 isn't enough to include them, maybe if they didn't ETBT.
Interesting how huge I percieve the difference between scry 1 and 2 to be.
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These would be better than ABU duals at Scry 2 IMO.
Also at Scry 1 with no ETB tapped. There's never been a land that etb untapped unconditionally and provided two colors without drawback except the ABU duals, and there has never been a land that etb untapped, tapped for two colors, AND had a benefit.
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ABU > Fetch > Shock > Mandual > Filter > Fastland ~= Checkland > These ~= Pain > Bounce. [...]
Mirage fetches I'd put under or near bouncelands, since they're similarly slow and don't offer any great reward. That makes them ~10-11th in allied pairs and theoretical enemy ones would be ~8-9th, and either way I wouldn't really run them.
I don't run most of my lands for fixing, I run them for synergistic effects, which means Filterlands, Fastlands, and Checklands are all not on my radar for being good cube lands. Filterlands are awesome at fixing, but they don't interact with anything. Grand Colloseum and City of Brass are the only non-interactive fixers I really want since they don't need a whole cycle. Anyway, CoB doesn't even really count, since it interacts with Rishadan Port.
That's ultimately why I run the Mirage Fetches over better lands; they're worse at fixing, but better at being synergistic. And I don't want perfect mana anyway, I want people to have to work a little to make 3 color decks.
I don't run most of my lands for fixing, I run them for synergistic effects, which means Filterlands, Fastlands, and Checklands are all not on my radar for being good cube lands. Filterlands are awesome at fixing, but they don't interact with anything. Grand Colloseum and City of Brass are the only non-interactive fixers I really want since they don't need a whole cycle. Anyway, CoB doesn't even really count, since it interacts with Rishadan Port.
That's ultimately why I run the Mirage Fetches over better lands; they're worse at fixing, but better at being synergistic. And I don't want perfect mana anyway, I want people to have to work a little to make 3 color decks.
Interesting. If that's the case, then these are the 4th best land in enemy colors (Dual / Fetch / Shock / These) and the fifth best land in allied colors (after the Manduals) for your Cube.
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ABU > Fetch > Shock > Mandual > Filter > Fastland ~= Checkland > These ~= Pain > Bounce.
I think it varies by color pair. I like the painlands in Golgari and Orzhov because they help aggro decks and those pairs don't have a manland. I don't like the filterlands much at all. Not all the manlands are that great; you can skip the Gruul and Rakdos ones if you want (although I like them a lot, I've been tempted to cut them for the fastlands). In Selesnya, Horizon Canopy is better than the manland and other options (beside the top 3). The fastlands (e.g. Copperline Gorge) are very good but only in aggro colors. However, the bottom line is the Scry lands get squeezed out of cubes unless you have at least 6 lands per color pair.
Ya lol. Really after the ABU, Fetches and Shocks, there isnt enough difference to where you are really hurting your cube. Its down to the individual color pairs and personal preference. I value scrying higher than most on this board, so thats why I run them in non-aggro pairs.
Yeah, I like these as my fourth dual in the enemy colored control pairs in place of the bouncelands. I like card advantage as much as the next person, but in a cube with wasteland, strip mine, avalanche riders, pillage, molten rain, cloudskate, venser, and acidic slime in it, the bouncelands are a liability as much as they are a benefit.
So you wish for better shocklands?
No. Don't be ridiculous. They wouldn't be fetchable, they wouldn't be able to come into play tapped to mitigate the lifeloss, and they'd cause you to lose life every time you tap them.
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This. That's why this cycle is lackluster. Shock lands are great because they can potentially be untapped (and fetched for specifically). Late rumors about horizon canopy-type lands got all excited... next year perhaps :/
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They are lands where you want a small number of them in decks with ineffecient mana curves, but are quite a bit worse in decks that have a smoother curve starting at turn 1.
Agro in particular.
Id consider playing them in large cubes, but no higher.
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Thats how I view them. I think they are good, but I would not run the ones in aggro color pairs. Boros and Rakdos in particular. Im not running Gruul either, since its either aggro or wants a turn one mana dork.
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The pairs that these are most likely to show up in are UG and UR, because they're blue and thus benefit the most, but they are also enemy colored so they don't have the manlands. Even then, you've probably got to have at least a 540, if not a 630 or 720 before these really become serious contenders.
Which is a shame. I like these lands a lot because they do something more than just provide/fix mana, which only the Manduals have done thus far.
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Personally I'd say it goes:
ABU > Fetch > Shock > Mandual > Filter > Fastland ~= Checkland > These ~= Pain > Bounce.
Some people value the bouncelands more highly but I don't particularly like them. Manduals and Fastlands are only in allied combinations, meaning these are probably about the 6-7th best land for enemy combinations, which puts it in contention for those at 630, but for aggro enemy combinations like RW and BW, I'd take Painlands over them, meaning they'd only show up in UR, UG, and maybe GB. At 720 I'd probably play them in every enemy color pair.
Mirage fetches I'd put under or near bouncelands, since they're similarly slow and don't offer any great reward. That makes them ~10-11th in allied pairs and theoretical enemy ones would be ~8-9th, and either way I wouldn't really run them.
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These would be better than ABU duals at Scry 2 IMO.
Also at Scry 1 with no ETB tapped. There's never been a land that etb untapped unconditionally and provided two colors without drawback except the ABU duals, and there has never been a land that etb untapped, tapped for two colors, AND had a benefit.
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I don't run most of my lands for fixing, I run them for synergistic effects, which means Filterlands, Fastlands, and Checklands are all not on my radar for being good cube lands. Filterlands are awesome at fixing, but they don't interact with anything. Grand Colloseum and City of Brass are the only non-interactive fixers I really want since they don't need a whole cycle. Anyway, CoB doesn't even really count, since it interacts with Rishadan Port.
That's ultimately why I run the Mirage Fetches over better lands; they're worse at fixing, but better at being synergistic. And I don't want perfect mana anyway, I want people to have to work a little to make 3 color decks.
Interesting. If that's the case, then these are the 4th best land in enemy colors (Dual / Fetch / Shock / These) and the fifth best land in allied colors (after the Manduals) for your Cube.
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I think it varies by color pair. I like the painlands in Golgari and Orzhov because they help aggro decks and those pairs don't have a manland. I don't like the filterlands much at all. Not all the manlands are that great; you can skip the Gruul and Rakdos ones if you want (although I like them a lot, I've been tempted to cut them for the fastlands). In Selesnya, Horizon Canopy is better than the manland and other options (beside the top 3). The fastlands (e.g. Copperline Gorge) are very good but only in aggro colors. However, the bottom line is the Scry lands get squeezed out of cubes unless you have at least 6 lands per color pair.
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Ya lol. Really after the ABU, Fetches and Shocks, there isnt enough difference to where you are really hurting your cube. Its down to the individual color pairs and personal preference. I value scrying higher than most on this board, so thats why I run them in non-aggro pairs.
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