Playing Prophet, untapping and flashing in another 5-drop is good. But I'd just as soon play a better quality initial 5-drop, wait, and cast another one on my next turn. That way, one of my 5cc investments (especially a multicolor investment) isn't a 2/3. Or if I'm in blue anyways and I want the flash effect, I could use Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir instead as my first 5cc card that drops, because it has flash itself, and gifts flash to all my other creatures still, and limits all my opponent's plays to sorcery speed. And it also has a more reasonable body for the mana investment, and can be flashed in to kill a good sized attacking creature all on its own. And its only 1 color.
But like you said, you guys don't run any planeswalkers, so it's easier to find room at the #4+ slot for Prophet when you're not playing Kiora.
Remember, running cards that you guys really enjoy is the most important part of cubing. I play a lot of cards in my list that the majority of cube designers don't like. It's what makes each cube unique. Just because we don't like the card doesn't suggest that you shouldn't cube it. It's just explaining why the card might not be a good fit for us.
If you think it's as cut and dry as a 5 mana 2/3 then you miss the point of the card and the entire discussion thus far.
But it is. Unless you have other creatures/spells worth playing, that is. But that is the very definition of a card that does not stand on its own. And if you're not seeing that I'm afraid you miss the point of the card and the entire discussion thus far.
As soon as you say go, untap, and play another 5 mana drop during opponent's turn (or your beloved mystic snake), then you begin to realize how broken it can be.
...and as soon as your opponent counters it/kills it/you have nothing else relevant to play you may realize you'd rather just have played something else.
Of course the card can be broken; no one is questioning that. But the same can be said of a lot of other cards; the point I think people are trying to make is that you can't be enamored of the best-case scenario without considering the average- and worst-case scenarios as well.
As soon as an opponent counters or kills ANY creature it's useless lol... The arguments against this one are simply baffling to me at times. Yes, there are removal that can kill this creature and be very disappointing for you after having just cast it, but that's completely true of almost any other creature.
In blue/green, most of the best spells come turns 4+ in my experience, so I'd hope you have some other spells.
if you can guarantee keeping your hand well stocked, it's a nice enabler for decks with lots of countermagic and creatures. That's not a good investment of 5 mana when you can produce a direct threat, or multiple threats, for that cost. 3GU is too much and too narrow for what cannot even be reasonably described as an engine card, as it is entirely feasible to not even be able to abuse the effect at all. If it tapped to draw a card, say, it would be a nice engine card. It may also have been interesting at 2UU or 2GG.
Also, if the card's base body was at least a reasonable threat in its own right, it would be a little more palatable. A 3/4 or 4/3 flyer for example. At the moment, you're paying 5 mana for a vulnerable body which can't achieve much, and an ability that requires a ton of extra cards to profit from. I would probably never main deck it, in all honesty.
With cards like survival of the fittest and the creature version, I think this is just beautiful with possible powerful combinations available. Even a card like Genesis in your graveyard, return a creature during your upkeep, be able to cast it during opponent's turn, pretty sweet.
Cube (in my experience) is all about finding ways of combining cards to make for awesome and fun encounters and combos, much like the mystic snake combos discussed here which I think are less likely than the few I just mentioned for prophet. Personally, I feel she fits the mold for a cube worthy card and the experiences I've had with her speak to that point. It may not be for everyone which is okay too.
Like I said above, enjoy the cards that make your cube experience different from the average list. Kill people with your flashed in threats and laugh all the way to the bank.
Yeah, in EDH cube she's an absolute powerhouse, and draws out removal like nobody's business. That's because games are slow and there are multiple opponent's turns to take advantage of and fatties for days. In a traditional cube, there are answer me or lose kind of drops at 5 mana. In that environment, Prophet simply makes those drops more efficient when they quite often don't need to be to win the game. However, if your cube isn't about winning on turn five or six, then she'd probably be a great source of fun.
i wanted to add that 1v1, she is ok. like wtwlf suggested, it is better to play a stronger 5 drop.
however, in multiplayer, you can use your blue cards to stock up and counter during each of your opponents turns
try this card with opposition for some of the most epic (for you) lock downs.
If you think it's as cut and dry as a 5 mana 2/3 then you miss the point of the card and the entire discussion thus far.
As soon as you say go, untap, and play another 5 mana drop during opponent's turn (or your beloved mystic snake), then you begin to realize how broken it can be.
To quote you last page "a card should be great on its own".
If you think it's as cut and dry as a 5 mana 2/3 then you miss the point of the card and the entire discussion thus far.
As soon as you say go, untap, and play another 5 mana drop during opponent's turn (or your beloved mystic snake), then you begin to realize how broken it can be.
To quote you last page "a card should be great on its own".
In blue/green control (the decks she'd be dominant in), card advantage will ensure she'll never be alone.
So, a card has to be good on its own, unless it's not alone. Then it's okay for it to be mediocre on its own.
Exactly, so give me all your black lotuses since on its own giving 3 mana is useless without something to cast with. Let me know when I should expect them; I can use them as coasters.
Are we comparing Prophet to Black Lotus now? Lotus accelerates you three mana into a bomb waaaaay ahead of curve at a time when you should have plenty of options in hand. Prophet just lets you play more on-curve bombs, at a time where you may not have that many options in hand.
It's OK to assess cards in a vacuum sometimes, but Prophet has a very real problem being so near the end of the curve, considering what it ideally wants to be doing. If you already have a great source of card advantage you shouldn't need Prophet to help you run it all into play and that may not even be a great idea as it's overextending.
So, a card has to be good on its own, unless it's not alone. Then it's okay for it to be mediocre on its own.
Exactly, so give me all your black lotuses since on its own giving 3 mana is useless without something to cast with. Let me know when I should expect them; I can use them as coasters.
I'm not the one that said a card has to be good on its own. You did. On the last page:
Quote from Ebase131 »
A card should be great on its own [...]
As an attack against Mystic Snake. I wouldn't apply one set of conditions for a card you're attacking and ignore them for a card you're defending.
Mystic snake requires you to keep mana open, this opens up mana for you. By turn 5, blue/green should be ready to unleash some serious beat down on an opponent. I've seen that aided by prophet.
As for Black lotus, it's the most expensive card for a reason.
Mystic snake requires you to keep mana open, this opens up mana for you. By turn 5, blue/green should be ready to unleash some serious beat down on an opponent. I've seen that aided by prophet.
As for Black lotus, it's the most expensive card for a reason.
Did someone say Black Lotus was bad? What on earth does that have to do with Prophet anyways? Are you really comparing those two cards to one another?
All I was pointing out was that on the last page you said that cards should be good on their own when you were arguing against Snake, and on this page, you're comparing Prophet to Black Lotus and saying that it doesn't have to be good on its own. I think you have a bit of a double-standard when it comes to defending a card you have an attachment to.
Mystic Snake is card advantage and doesn't require you to pair it with other cards to get good average value from it. Prophet is powerful if you have a handful of other big creatures and countermagic, but you can't always rely on that. I'd rather resolve a better quality 5-drop, and not rely on flashing in other creatures in order to win me the game.
I'd rather resolve a better quality 5-drop, and not rely on flashing in other creatures in order to win me the game.
Just this. This is a criterion that should be considered for every card, really. As far as 5 CMC gold cards go, it's the same issue I had with Venser, the Sojourner.
So do you not like counterspells at all then? Because you always have to leave mana open unless you are using Force of Will or something.
I love counterspells; control is my favorite style of deck, but do I like 4 mana multicolored counterspells that give me a 2/2 vanilla bear when blue finally starts rolling at 4 mana?
And is prophet the second coming of Jesus? No, but as far as the other simic cards are concerned, I think it makes the cut in my section and provides for fun situations which is what I want in my cube.
I think it makes the cut in my section and provides for fun situations which is what I want in my cube.
Which is exactly the reason why you should cube with it.
I'd play Desolation Angel as my #4 Orzhov card despite it being an unpopular (and arguably less-than-optimal) choice that high in the charts because I love the card. Do whatever makes your playgroup happy.
We played with Seedborn Muse at 540 and there were a small subset of our players that absolutely loved the card. I think there is something very Timmy about getting to re-use your mana multiple times in a my-turn/your-turn period.
I think Prophet of Kruphix and Seedborn Muse are very playgroup-dependent cards (I mean, what card isn't, but just follow me here). If your players like running blue/green decks that can utilize lots of flashy mid-range plays and your cube is a bit on the slower side (I think these cards are more ideal in slower cubes), then by all means go for it.
I think I'd play at least 5-7 cards over Prophet of Kruphix, but one player in my playgroup constantly wants to try out Prophet over Kiora. I've wanted to give him the satisfaction of drafting it but we just really do not have room at 360. If you have a player (or multiple players) petitioning for the card, it's probably a good idea just to test it out to see if their view (or yours) will change.
Testing never hurt anyone is my motto when it comes to making my playgroup happy.
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But like you said, you guys don't run any planeswalkers, so it's easier to find room at the #4+ slot for Prophet when you're not playing Kiora.
Remember, running cards that you guys really enjoy is the most important part of cubing. I play a lot of cards in my list that the majority of cube designers don't like. It's what makes each cube unique. Just because we don't like the card doesn't suggest that you shouldn't cube it. It's just explaining why the card might not be a good fit for us.
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But it is. Unless you have other creatures/spells worth playing, that is. But that is the very definition of a card that does not stand on its own. And if you're not seeing that I'm afraid you miss the point of the card and the entire discussion thus far.
...and as soon as your opponent counters it/kills it/you have nothing else relevant to play you may realize you'd rather just have played something else.
Of course the card can be broken; no one is questioning that. But the same can be said of a lot of other cards; the point I think people are trying to make is that you can't be enamored of the best-case scenario without considering the average- and worst-case scenarios as well.
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In blue/green, most of the best spells come turns 4+ in my experience, so I'd hope you have some other spells.
Also, if the card's base body was at least a reasonable threat in its own right, it would be a little more palatable. A 3/4 or 4/3 flyer for example. At the moment, you're paying 5 mana for a vulnerable body which can't achieve much, and an ability that requires a ton of extra cards to profit from. I would probably never main deck it, in all honesty.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Cube (in my experience) is all about finding ways of combining cards to make for awesome and fun encounters and combos, much like the mystic snake combos discussed here which I think are less likely than the few I just mentioned for prophet. Personally, I feel she fits the mold for a cube worthy card and the experiences I've had with her speak to that point. It may not be for everyone which is okay too.
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however, in multiplayer, you can use your blue cards to stock up and counter during each of your opponents turns
try this card with opposition for some of the most epic (for you) lock downs.
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To quote you last page "a card should be great on its own".
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In blue/green control (the decks she'd be dominant in), card advantage will ensure she'll never be alone.
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Exactly, so give me all your black lotuses since on its own giving 3 mana is useless without something to cast with. Let me know when I should expect them; I can use them as coasters.
It's OK to assess cards in a vacuum sometimes, but Prophet has a very real problem being so near the end of the curve, considering what it ideally wants to be doing. If you already have a great source of card advantage you shouldn't need Prophet to help you run it all into play and that may not even be a great idea as it's overextending.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I'm not the one that said a card has to be good on its own. You did. On the last page:
As an attack against Mystic Snake. I wouldn't apply one set of conditions for a card you're attacking and ignore them for a card you're defending.
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As for Black lotus, it's the most expensive card for a reason.
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Did someone say Black Lotus was bad? What on earth does that have to do with Prophet anyways? Are you really comparing those two cards to one another?
All I was pointing out was that on the last page you said that cards should be good on their own when you were arguing against Snake, and on this page, you're comparing Prophet to Black Lotus and saying that it doesn't have to be good on its own. I think you have a bit of a double-standard when it comes to defending a card you have an attachment to.
Mystic Snake is card advantage and doesn't require you to pair it with other cards to get good average value from it. Prophet is powerful if you have a handful of other big creatures and countermagic, but you can't always rely on that. I'd rather resolve a better quality 5-drop, and not rely on flashing in other creatures in order to win me the game.
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Just this. This is a criterion that should be considered for every card, really. As far as 5 CMC gold cards go, it's the same issue I had with Venser, the Sojourner.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Prophet is a cool card. I just don't think it's worth being a 5-mana gold card. And it's certainly no Black Lotus.
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I love counterspells; control is my favorite style of deck, but do I like 4 mana multicolored counterspells that give me a 2/2 vanilla bear when blue finally starts rolling at 4 mana?
And is prophet the second coming of Jesus? No, but as far as the other simic cards are concerned, I think it makes the cut in my section and provides for fun situations which is what I want in my cube.
Which is exactly the reason why you should cube with it.
I'd play Desolation Angel as my #4 Orzhov card despite it being an unpopular (and arguably less-than-optimal) choice that high in the charts because I love the card. Do whatever makes your playgroup happy.
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Back on discussion, maybe I can add a bit.
We played with Seedborn Muse at 540 and there were a small subset of our players that absolutely loved the card. I think there is something very Timmy about getting to re-use your mana multiple times in a my-turn/your-turn period.
I think Prophet of Kruphix and Seedborn Muse are very playgroup-dependent cards (I mean, what card isn't, but just follow me here). If your players like running blue/green decks that can utilize lots of flashy mid-range plays and your cube is a bit on the slower side (I think these cards are more ideal in slower cubes), then by all means go for it.
I think I'd play at least 5-7 cards over Prophet of Kruphix, but one player in my playgroup constantly wants to try out Prophet over Kiora. I've wanted to give him the satisfaction of drafting it but we just really do not have room at 360. If you have a player (or multiple players) petitioning for the card, it's probably a good idea just to test it out to see if their view (or yours) will change.
Testing never hurt anyone is my motto when it comes to making my playgroup happy.
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Monkey D Luffy
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