Wolfir Silverheart has a higher upside, but I like this guy better. He excels against some of ramps problems (chump blockers) and is still great after Wrath, unlike the Soulbinder.
I don't think this is a case of either/or when discussing both of these cards...from my experience Wofir Silverheart has been the best green five-drop in our cube drafts since it came out (with Thragtusk also in consideration). This new Hydra is certainly up there as well I think, and it's my opinion that it will likely play much better than Genesis more often than not.
This new Hydra is certainly up there as well I think, and it's my opinion that it will likely play much better than Genesis more often than not.
Genesis is the card I'm looking to replace as well (though it will be a painful cut as he's been in the cube since the beginning). The 2G during upkeep has proven to be too expensive in many cases. I also want to replace some utility with straight up beats in green as well as add more dudes who can survive wildfires. 8/8 trample for 5 mana is already awesome and him growing to 16/16 trample the next turn means bye bye to any and all chump blockers.
I'll be preordering this guy right away and will be proxying him in for the next draft.
I don't think this is a case of either/or when discussing both of these cards...from my experience Wofir Silverheart has been the best green five-drop in our cube drafts since it came out (with Thragtusk also in consideration). This new Hydra is certainly up there as well I think, and it's my opinion that it will likely play much better than Genesis more often than not.
Ahh. We have had much better luck with both Thragy and Vorapede at five, mostly because they work around ramp decks weaknesses, instead of exacerbating them. Still, I think it's amazing that green can get such awesome ramp targets at 5, so maybe I'll cut some more traditional ramp targets (or, as you say, Genesis, which hurts to think about).
This card and Genesis are completely different. It doesn't do any of the things that make Genesis good.
I think the thinking is that Genesis isn't really all that good anymore, not that this does the same thing. I'm not sure if that thinking is correct, but 2G on upkeep is kind of brutal at times.
I really want to add this thing, but I'm not sure yet what I'm cutting for it. I liek Green having the largest creatures in the cube, so the fact that this gets bigger than the Eldrazi after 2 attacks makes it very attractive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A little nonsense now and then is cherished by the wisest men."
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
I think the thinking is that Genesis isn't really all that good anymore, not that this does the same thing. I'm not sure if that thinking is correct, but 2G on upkeep is kind of brutal at times.
This. If that 2G could be done anytime it would so much more awesome.
I really want to add this thing, but I'm not sure yet what I'm cutting for it. I liek Green having the largest creatures in the cube, so the fact that this gets bigger than the Eldrazi after 2 attacks makes it very attractive.
I can see this guy fully ending a majority of games where it gets to attack twice. Genesis is going to be a really painful cut... and I am open to cutting something else (that's not 5cc) if I can think of something else... but there is also the new mana elf to consider.
Genesis is still fantastic in our cube, generating card advantage from beyond the grave. No plans on cutting him any time soon, especially not for a completely different kind of card that wouldn't even be going into the same kinds of decks. Plus, Genesis shores up green's worst matchup. The vs control games are where it's at its best, and makes up part of the reason it's included in the cube in the first place. Not to mention its interactions with things like Sneak Attack, evoke, Survival effects and the like.
Quote from hardb0dy »
Obviously.
Then it should be obvious that replacing it with a totally different card doesn't make much sense. If Genesis wasn't performing for your playgroup, it would've been cut long ago. This thing isn't the card that makes you suddenly realize that Genesis isn't good for your group anymore. If you wanted a big dumb beater instead of a GY deck supporting CA engine that grinds out wins, Genesis would've been replaced for a different green creature long ago.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
We cut Genesis. We like graveyard interaction, but it is just too slow and does not justify the inclusion because it is good against the threat-light control-heavy deck. But that is most likely a Cube metagame thing; and because that metagame is shifting all the time, now is as good a time as any to realize Genesis is no longer for your group.
Then it should be obvious that replacing it with a totally different card doesn't make much sense.
No, I don't think this is obvious. Though I try to keep my mana curve in check, I don't just replace cards in my cube with just better versions of the same card or cards that do similar things.
Did you yourself not recently take out Pyroclasm to make room for Pyrewild Shaman? Gifts Ungiven for Aetherling? Are these not totally different cards?
I'd like to see what people are taking out to put in the new mana elf.
If Genesis wasn't performing for your playgroup, it would've been cut long ago. This thing isn't the card that makes you suddenly realize that Genesis isn't good for your group anymore. If you wanted a big dumb beater instead of a GY deck supporting CA engine that grinds out wins, Genesis would've been replaced for a different green creature long ago.
Genesis wasn't "cut long ago" because there were other guys to cut. My last cuts were Thornling and Indrik Stomphowler for Thragtusk and Vorapede. There was no reason to cut Genesis yet because there was nothing I wanted in instead. Also, my cube is getting faster everytime and the 2G during upkeep is becoming too much of a burden even for ramp.
Big dumb beater sounds derogatory. Like it's a bad thing to be swinging for 8 trample for 5 mana... and then 16 trample without having to pay anything. I think this guy is better than Silverheart because of trample. I've seen way too many fatties get stuffed by Squee and flying faeries.
I get the card advantage engine and I get that Genesis can grind out wins especially vs control. I've said it will be a painful cut (and I've said I'm open to cutting something else). But there are times when you won't need to grind out that win because you just swung for 16 trample.
Then it should be obvious that replacing it with a totally different card doesn't make much sense. If Genesis wasn't performing for your playgroup, it would've been cut long ago. This thing isn't the card that makes you suddenly realize that Genesis isn't good for your group anymore. If you wanted a big dumb beater instead of a GY deck supporting CA engine that grinds out wins, Genesis would've been replaced for a different green creature long ago.
This logic seems flawed. Just because cards serve different purposes doesn't mean they can't vie for the same spot, and power levels are constantly shifting with every change to the cube. Genesis may have been slipping in my cube in power level, but that doesn't mean I would replace it for anything.
A card that costs 5, that is likely coming out on turn 4 and in two swings deals 24 damage by itself seems cubable regardless of its lack of self preservation. Never mind the fabled 3rd swing. I'll test this. I think the gruul Ramp/aggro deck that's been playing well in my group is going to love this card. I can't wait to give this fellow haste.
All I'm saying is that the two creatures aren't comparable. If you want to play this and cut Genesis, that's fine. But the two cards don't compete for the same slot when deckbuilding ...they don't even go into the same deck. So if Genesis is the cut because it's the weakest link in your green section, so be it. But if you're looking for a card that fills Genesis' role but better, this isn't it. Not at all.
By the way, I don't think this card is bad. It hits really hard. I'm just not sure how it compares to Silverheart; a creature that was cut because simply having a good power/cost ratio wasn't enough for our 5-drops. Maybe this guy is better because of the Trample, I don't know.
wow. turn 4 Kalonian hydra into turn 5 kikijiki is
32 damage turn 5.
i just took out splinter twin, deciever exarch and pestermite because that combo was becoming way too annoying in my cube especially because it played in the same deck as the magical hacker pw combo. this seems like a more fair version of that combo.
wait is the rule that it doubles then doubles if 2 of this creature attack? or does it see 4 counters, then do 2 double triggers and get 4+4+4? either way its probably lethal but still.
If you attack with two Hydras, two triggers go on the stack. The first will double from 4 to 8, the second will double from 8 to 16, so the 32 damage for the Hydra -> Kiki-Jiki should be correct.
I think this is a very good beater and possibly better than Wolfir Silverheart. I just don't think it is a very interesting card to play with or against.
I like him better then the silverheart.
1. Trample is huge on a big dumb fatty. The 2002/2000 primordial hydra that smashed through 20+ tokens in a multiplayer ffa game in my cube really didnt feel like getting chumped. (ensnaring bridge if you were wondering how the board got so clogged)
2. The upside is definitely relevant. i can think of 3 cards immediately , 2 hydras and 1 experiment one, that the hydra buffs significantly.
3. when i play my super awesome 5 drop fatty i want him to be able to wreck face when my opponent and i are in topdeck mode. Silverheart is a 4/4 vanilla, this is a 4/4 trample that will end the game and quickly.
This guy is better than Silverheart, but significantly enough better to make it in?
I'm going to have to test it out. Big with Trample, 3 turn clock seems pretty solid.
Someday I will get my 6 mana 6/6 Hexproof,Trample and I will cease my tireless search for the ideal green fatty, but until then, gotta keep testing.
I didn't notice before now that it doubles the counters on all your guys. Don't know how relevant that is, but it's a fun upside.
looks like about 15 from your list:
Stormblood berserker
Ajani, caller of the pride
Strangleroot geist
Experiment one
stromkirk noble
Ajani goldmane
ob nixilis
Gorehouse Chainwalker
Raging Ravine
Scavenging ooze
Vinelasher Kudzu
vorapede
triskelion
rakdos cackler
lotleth troll
some of those would be pretty rad.
I think he'll play better than silverheart. The immediate impact isn't as insane, but the trample is worth it, and so is the fact that he can and will end the game quickly by himself, which is something silverheart can't do.
I'm skeptical of this guy mainly because Primordial Hydra has failed to make any waves in cube or any competitive format. I'm not even sure that this card is better than primordial because it can't do anything at 3-4 mana. Sure, this hits harder when cast for 5 mana, but to be fair primordial hydra will still win the game unanswered.
I don't think this is a case of either/or when discussing both of these cards...from my experience Wofir Silverheart has been the best green five-drop in our cube drafts since it came out (with Thragtusk also in consideration). This new Hydra is certainly up there as well I think, and it's my opinion that it will likely play much better than Genesis more often than not.
(list not current)
My Cube Google Docs Spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AibgWfz0ukmOdDNhOHlucjcxUi1wVy00NDhLbDUtUlE&hl=en_US#gid=8
(list is always current)
Genesis is the card I'm looking to replace as well (though it will be a painful cut as he's been in the cube since the beginning). The 2G during upkeep has proven to be too expensive in many cases. I also want to replace some utility with straight up beats in green as well as add more dudes who can survive wildfires. 8/8 trample for 5 mana is already awesome and him growing to 16/16 trample the next turn means bye bye to any and all chump blockers.
I'll be preordering this guy right away and will be proxying him in for the next draft.
Ahh. We have had much better luck with both Thragy and Vorapede at five, mostly because they work around ramp decks weaknesses, instead of exacerbating them. Still, I think it's amazing that green can get such awesome ramp targets at 5, so maybe I'll cut some more traditional ramp targets (or, as you say, Genesis, which hurts to think about).
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think the thinking is that Genesis isn't really all that good anymore, not that this does the same thing. I'm not sure if that thinking is correct, but 2G on upkeep is kind of brutal at times.
I really want to add this thing, but I'm not sure yet what I'm cutting for it. I liek Green having the largest creatures in the cube, so the fact that this gets bigger than the Eldrazi after 2 attacks makes it very attractive.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
Obviously.
This. If that 2G could be done anytime it would so much more awesome.
I can see this guy fully ending a majority of games where it gets to attack twice. Genesis is going to be a really painful cut... and I am open to cutting something else (that's not 5cc) if I can think of something else... but there is also the new mana elf to consider.
Then it should be obvious that replacing it with a totally different card doesn't make much sense. If Genesis wasn't performing for your playgroup, it would've been cut long ago. This thing isn't the card that makes you suddenly realize that Genesis isn't good for your group anymore. If you wanted a big dumb beater instead of a GY deck supporting CA engine that grinds out wins, Genesis would've been replaced for a different green creature long ago.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
No, I don't think this is obvious. Though I try to keep my mana curve in check, I don't just replace cards in my cube with just better versions of the same card or cards that do similar things.
Did you yourself not recently take out Pyroclasm to make room for Pyrewild Shaman? Gifts Ungiven for Aetherling? Are these not totally different cards?
I'd like to see what people are taking out to put in the new mana elf.
Genesis wasn't "cut long ago" because there were other guys to cut. My last cuts were Thornling and Indrik Stomphowler for Thragtusk and Vorapede. There was no reason to cut Genesis yet because there was nothing I wanted in instead. Also, my cube is getting faster everytime and the 2G during upkeep is becoming too much of a burden even for ramp.
Big dumb beater sounds derogatory. Like it's a bad thing to be swinging for 8 trample for 5 mana... and then 16 trample without having to pay anything. I think this guy is better than Silverheart because of trample. I've seen way too many fatties get stuffed by Squee and flying faeries.
I get the card advantage engine and I get that Genesis can grind out wins especially vs control. I've said it will be a painful cut (and I've said I'm open to cutting something else). But there are times when you won't need to grind out that win because you just swung for 16 trample.
This logic seems flawed. Just because cards serve different purposes doesn't mean they can't vie for the same spot, and power levels are constantly shifting with every change to the cube. Genesis may have been slipping in my cube in power level, but that doesn't mean I would replace it for anything.
Cube list thread
Cubetutor
Cube talk, design community and much much more!
By the way, I don't think this card is bad. It hits really hard. I'm just not sure how it compares to Silverheart; a creature that was cut because simply having a good power/cost ratio wasn't enough for our 5-drops. Maybe this guy is better because of the Trample, I don't know.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
32 damage turn 5.
i just took out splinter twin, deciever exarch and pestermite because that combo was becoming way too annoying in my cube especially because it played in the same deck as the magical hacker pw combo. this seems like a more fair version of that combo.
wait is the rule that it doubles then doubles if 2 of this creature attack? or does it see 4 counters, then do 2 double triggers and get 4+4+4? either way its probably lethal but still.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
I think this is a very good beater and possibly better than Wolfir Silverheart. I just don't think it is a very interesting card to play with or against.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Cube talk, design community and much much more!
1. Trample is huge on a big dumb fatty. The 2002/2000 primordial hydra that smashed through 20+ tokens in a multiplayer ffa game in my cube really didnt feel like getting chumped. (ensnaring bridge if you were wondering how the board got so clogged)
2. The upside is definitely relevant. i can think of 3 cards immediately , 2 hydras and 1 experiment one, that the hydra buffs significantly.
3. when i play my super awesome 5 drop fatty i want him to be able to wreck face when my opponent and i are in topdeck mode. Silverheart is a 4/4 vanilla, this is a 4/4 trample that will end the game and quickly.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
I'm going to have to test it out. Big with Trample, 3 turn clock seems pretty solid.
Someday I will get my 6 mana 6/6 Hexproof,Trample and I will cease my tireless search for the ideal green fatty, but until then, gotta keep testing.
[Remixes] - [The Brutal Cube - 360 Powered] - [My Cube Article] - ['Print-This' Wishlist]
looks like about 15 from your list:
Stormblood berserker
Ajani, caller of the pride
Strangleroot geist
Experiment one
stromkirk noble
Ajani goldmane
ob nixilis
Gorehouse Chainwalker
Raging Ravine
Scavenging ooze
Vinelasher Kudzu
vorapede
triskelion
rakdos cackler
lotleth troll
some of those would be pretty rad.
I think he'll play better than silverheart. The immediate impact isn't as insane, but the trample is worth it, and so is the fact that he can and will end the game quickly by himself, which is something silverheart can't do.
Cube list thread
Cubetutor
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Draft it on Cubetutor!