What are the best black spot removal cards? I'm currently running the following in 360 but feel that I am one or two short (how many do you guys run?)...
In my head Snuff Out is next in line... Is the cost worth it in comparison to Doom Blade? Also, I've been seeing Ultimate Price as well as Victim of Night in peasant /pauper and they don't look bad either... Victim of Night hits quite a lot of creatures in any cube. Has anyone tested these in regular lists?
The next best two you aren't running are Snuff Out and Diabolic Edict, which I like more than Chainer's Edict. After that, I think it's a toss up between Doom Blade and Ultimate Price. Disfigure and Tragic Slip are pretty good because they can double as combat tricks and Slip can get indestructibles, although they are not 360 quality. In fact I don't run them or Ultimate Price at 500.
Not sure which killer creatures you are running. I like them more than most of the spells, but it's a given that you should run some of each. Of the creatures, Shriekmaw is definitely the best. After that, I'd say Nekrataal, Skinrender, and Bone Shredder are great. Fleshbag Marauder is another option. I run all of these creatures at 500.
I assume you're talking about noncreature effects, and after the ones you're running, there's Diabolic Edict, Snuff Out and Contagtion which I like a lot.
My ranking for black spot removal spells, including edicts:
Dismember
Go for the Throat
Snuff Out
Consuming Vapors
Diabolic Edict
Doom Blade
Chainer's Edict
I consider only the top 2 essential at any size. We cube the top 3 at 450. I think I'd still include Snuff Out at 360, but I'm not sure. If Liliana of the Veil can also be considered an edict, it can join the 'essential at any size' club.
For 187 creatures:
Shriekmaw
Skinrender
Bone Shredder
Fleshbag Marauder
Shadowborn Demon, Nekrataal
We currently run them all except Nekrataal, the Demon is being tested in its slot (jury still out). Nekrataal is very good so very likely to return at this level. I'd probably run at least 4 of these 6 at 360 - these creatures are very good.
I'd move Nekrataal right up there with Skinrender. The first strike is relevant for holding other creatures at bay defensively, and the ETB trigger can kill big guys as well as smaller ones. I consider it a 360 staple.
The non-black/non-creature is what got me to move some of these... I used to cube with both Nekrataal and Bone Shredder (replaced by Skinrender and Fleshbag respectively). Having said that I think 4 187 creatures is a good target so I will look into adding one of them.
Is the BB casting cost what holds Victim of Night back?
The non-black/non-creature is what got me to move some of these... I used to cube with both Nekrataal and Bone Shredder (replaced by Skinrender and Fleshbag respectively). Having said that I think 4 187 creatures is a good target so I will look into adding one of them.
Is the BB casting cost what holds Victim of Night back?
My rankings would go like this:
Shriekmaw
Skinrender
Consuming Vapors
Nekrataal
Bone Shredder
Dismember
Go for the Throat
Snuff Out
Fleshbag Marauder
Doom Blade
Diabolic Edict
Chainer's Edict
At 360 I might not go below Dismember. Victim of Night is defintely held back by the fact that it still misses some creatures and is not splashable.
Tragic Slip is an experiment in my list, but I have some hopes for it because creatures die all the time, especially with the many sacrifice effects I currently have.
I'm also toying with the idea of adding Executioner's Capsule. It is not particularly good as a Doom Blade variant, but I'd like to get a few additional artifacts for the UB artifact deck in my list and it also has nice synergies with Trinket Mage and Sun Titan.
I think Cubes, especially at 500+, should reevaluate Victim of Night if they play black heavy cards like Geralf's Messenger. There are only very few relevant creatures that it does not kill.
I don't think you can make a blanket statement like this. My cube has numerous ways of cheating big fatties into play, some of which have shroud. Edicts are a good answer to this. Not so good against Myr Battlesphere of course.
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I don't think you can make a blanket statement like this. My cube has numerous ways of cheating big fatties into play, some of which have shroud. Edicts are a good answer to this. Not so good against Myr Battlesphere of course.
I found that while it's true that sometimes an edict is your only out against a cheated-into-play-fattie, I lost more games because I could not kill a targetable creature with my edict than I won games because my edict killed a shrouded creature. There are like 3 shroud/hexproof fatties and the trolls where an edict has the potential to be very good plus the cards that the targeted spell would not kill because of targeting restrictions. But for all the rest, an edict is as good as the targeted removal at best and often much worse.
victim of the night is a strong card & as hardb0dy mentioned it definitely hits alot of creatures in cube that some of the "others" cant target. that being said, we're not currently using it in our cube. 1 of the criteria we applied in determining if we wanted to use a particular black removal spell was if it could actually kill a black creature, which can be pertinent. for reference we're currently using: go for the throat & ultimate price (our black killers), doom blade (targetted artifact killer for black), chainer's edict (potential 2nd use sac effect), dismember (too good not to include), far/away (see dismember), & consuming vapors. while i agree w/ Konfusius that the vapors is slow, the life gain is really nice. & b/c life loss is oftimes relevant in black, thats the reason we arent running snuff out. the necessity of needing a free doom blade for 4 life that stops a creature from regenerating should almost never come up; hell for that matter, how many regenerators do most cubes have in them nowadays anyways?
I'll be adding Nekrataal and Bone Shredder back in... adds value to Reveillark, Imperial Recruiter and all the blink/bounce guys/artifacts... and having a body is a big deal.
I found that while it's true that sometimes an edict is your only out against a cheated-into-play-fattie, I lost more games because I could not kill a targetable creature with my edict than I won games because my edict killed a shrouded creature.
The more I think about it the more I agree with this. It's true that Thrun is a real pain in the @$$ but there were so many times that I could have survived had I been able to choose which creature to kill. Since I still have Fleshbag I'm comfortable replacing Chainer's Edict with either Snuff Out, Doom Blade or Victim of Night. They all have their pros and cons, and though I am leaning on Snuff Out right now, I do find Victim of Night quite appealing.
Our ~400ish cube currently runs:
1. Shriekmaw - versatile, evasive threat, and sweet art
2. Skinrender - solid body, stops persist, zombie
3. Liliana of the Veil - edict that can repeat
4. Consuming Vapors - 2 for 1, lifegain
5. Go for the Throat - your standard middle-of-the-road removal
6. Dismember - versatile casting cost, gives an out against regenerators
7. Tragic Slip - cheap, fairly easy to achieve morbid, kills pretty much anything that can be targeted
8. Diabolic Edict - out against protection/shroud/hexproof guys
9. Fume Spitter - the black Mogg Fanatic, kills utility dudes, can mess up combat math
10. Shadowborn Demon - testing in place of Nekrataal, no experience yet
I rank all the 2 for 1's higher than the CP spot removal.
In terms of spot removal, this is my ranking. Not counting Dismember in this crowd. Also not considering 187 creatures, as their applications vary. It's a lot of apples-to-oranges when you toss in the creatures:
GFTT is #1. It hits nearly anything you need to hit. Kills on sight. The drawback/untargetability of the spell is very limited. Wurmcoil is public enemy #1 against this but Chainer also has issues with this card.
Chainer is a close #2. It doesn't target, so it's a notch lower in my book. Yes, that's a strong enough argument in my book because [threat] + [durdle] means you're not gauranteed killing [threat]. This is where GFFT is the better pure removal card. In other words, unless you're facing [threat] on an open field, Chainer isn't direct removal. The upside is that it has flashback. FB is pretty relevant. Overall, Chainer is also is a way to psuedo-deal with hexproof fellas not named Thrun. Still has issues with Wurmcoil like GFFT, but can at least force the sacrifice.
Liliana of the Veil #3. It's a solid cost for an edict + damage sponge. The upside of this card is the ability to just win the game by its own. It's a PWer. Aggressive costs all around for the abilities you get. The edict effect is pretty strong.
Snuff Out is my #4. Take the merits of doom blade and then make the playable cost even more aggressive than dismember (free vs 1 colorless). You can be on the attack or on the backfoot and the card is good. Yes, damage to yourself sucks, but the 'free' clause is a tremendous boost.
Doom Blade / Ultimate Price #5. Not as strong as above. Better than below
Consuming Vapors #6. It is tremendous value. The "downside" is a hard cost of 3B. Fantastic card, but removal for 0-2 definitely beat 4. I don't care what deck you're running.
Diabolic Edict #7. The original 'edict'. It's faster than Chainer's (literally) but lacks flashback. That's a huge blow. It will never recur unless you snapcaster/PiF/YawgWill this thing. Even the more expensive Liliana does more in that regard.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I suggest everyone run 1-3 1cmc removal spells (unless you're cube is dragony, which means your list runs a lot of fatty fatty boom booms and not much aggro support).
Some of the better ones are:
Fume Spitter
Tragic Slip
Disfigure <-- my favorite out of this list
Snuff Out (free)
Again, I wouldn't count Dismember here because that card gets swiped by nonblack drafters a lot.
I value Skinrender over Shriekmaw most of the time these days. I find that I like the effect, body and and cost just a little bit more, not to mention the creature type.
I value Skinrender over Shriekmaw most of the time these days. I find that I like the effect, body and and cost just a little bit more, not to mention the creature type.
I like me some Skinrender, but let's not get crazy here. Shriekmaw's evoke is just crazy priced, and getting itself into the yard is often a good thing in black decks.
In terms of spot removal, this is my ranking. Not counting Dismember in this crowd. Also not considering 187 creatures, as their applications vary. It's a lot of apples-to-oranges when you toss in the creatures:
GFTT is #1. It hits nearly anything you need to hit. Kills on sight. The drawback/untargetability of the spell is very limited. Wurmcoil is public enemy #1 against this but Chainer also has issues with this card.
Chainer is a close #2. It doesn't target, so it's a notch lower in my book. Yes, that's a strong enough argument in my book because [threat] + [durdle] means you're not gauranteed killing [threat]. This is where GFFT is the better pure removal card. In other words, unless you're facing [threat] on an open field, Chainer isn't direct removal. The upside is that it has flashback. FB is pretty relevant. Overall, Chainer is also is a way to psuedo-deal with hexproof fellas not named Thrun. Still has issues with Wurmcoil like GFFT, but can at least force the sacrifice.
Liliana of the Veil #3. It's a solid cost for an edict + damage sponge. The upside of this card is the ability to just win the game by its own. It's a PWer. Aggressive costs all around for the abilities you get. The edict effect is pretty strong.
Snuff Out is my #4. Take the merits of doom blade and then make the playable cost even more aggressive than dismember (free vs 1 colorless). You can be on the attack or on the backfoot and the card is good. Yes, damage to yourself sucks, but the 'free' clause is a tremendous boost.
Doom Blade / Ultimate Price #5. Not as strong as above. Better than below
Consuming Vapors #6. It is tremendous value. The "downside" is a hard cost of 3B. Fantastic card, but removal for 0-2 definitely beat 4. I don't care what deck you're running.
Diabolic Edict #7. The original 'edict'. It's faster than Chainer's (literally) but lacks flashback. That's a huge blow. It will never recur unless you snapcaster/PiF/YawgWill this thing. Even the more expensive Liliana does more in that regard.
I like all the other cards more than Chainer's. Most of my black decks will never hit 7 mana, so the flashback is often irrelevant. I like your other descriptions, though.
But yes, Consuming Vapors is ridiculous value. I have been beaten by that card (it felt like) a few times. Playing it into one creature is great - it guarantees a free turn to develop or play a board.
My ranking for black spot removal spells, including edicts:
Dismember
Go for the Throat
Snuff Out
Consuming Vapors
Diabolic Edict
Doom Blade
Chainer's Edict
I consider only the top 2 essential at any size. We cube the top 3 at 450. I think I'd still include Snuff Out at 360, but I'm not sure. If Liliana of the Veil can also be considered an edict, it can join the 'essential at any size' club.
That's interesting. I run all of these at 360 and never really thought it was too many until now. To be fair though, we do 2-man winstons a lot, so the extra density is nice. I think I'll consider cutting chainer's edict or doomblade though, as this seems like a comparable ranking to what my playgroups would be.
That's interesting. I run all of these at 360 and never really thought it was too many until now. To be fair though, we do 2-man winstons a lot, so the extra density is nice. I think I'll consider cutting chainer's edict or doomblade though, as this seems like a comparable ranking to what my playgroups would be.
We focus on 2-man Winston and run Fredo's top five there.
Dismember
Go for the Throat
Snuff Out
Consuming Vapors
Diabolic Edict
Seven doesn't seem that excessive to me, but five felt right to us.
In my head Snuff Out is next in line... Is the cost worth it in comparison to Doom Blade? Also, I've been seeing Ultimate Price as well as Victim of Night in peasant /pauper and they don't look bad either... Victim of Night hits quite a lot of creatures in any cube. Has anyone tested these in regular lists?
I'm open to creature options as well.
Not sure which killer creatures you are running. I like them more than most of the spells, but it's a given that you should run some of each. Of the creatures, Shriekmaw is definitely the best. After that, I'd say Nekrataal, Skinrender, and Bone Shredder are great. Fleshbag Marauder is another option. I run all of these creatures at 500.
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Dismember
Go for the Throat
Snuff Out
Consuming Vapors
Diabolic Edict
Doom Blade
Chainer's Edict
I consider only the top 2 essential at any size. We cube the top 3 at 450. I think I'd still include Snuff Out at 360, but I'm not sure. If Liliana of the Veil can also be considered an edict, it can join the 'essential at any size' club.
For 187 creatures:
Shriekmaw
Skinrender
Bone Shredder
Fleshbag Marauder
Shadowborn Demon, Nekrataal
We currently run them all except Nekrataal, the Demon is being tested in its slot (jury still out). Nekrataal is very good so very likely to return at this level. I'd probably run at least 4 of these 6 at 360 - these creatures are very good.
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I consider Nekrataal a 360 staple as well, along with Skinrender and Shriekmaw. I think the other killer creatures are debatable below 450.
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Is the BB casting cost what holds Victim of Night back?
My rankings would go like this:
Shriekmaw
Skinrender
Consuming Vapors
Nekrataal
Bone Shredder
Dismember
Go for the Throat
Snuff Out
Fleshbag Marauder
Doom Blade
Diabolic Edict
Chainer's Edict
At 360 I might not go below Dismember. Victim of Night is defintely held back by the fact that it still misses some creatures and is not splashable.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Tragic Slip is an experiment in my list, but I have some hopes for it because creatures die all the time, especially with the many sacrifice effects I currently have.
I'm also toying with the idea of adding Executioner's Capsule. It is not particularly good as a Doom Blade variant, but I'd like to get a few additional artifacts for the UB artifact deck in my list and it also has nice synergies with Trinket Mage and Sun Titan.
I think Cubes, especially at 500+, should reevaluate Victim of Night if they play black heavy cards like Geralf's Messenger. There are only very few relevant creatures that it does not kill.
Finally, with all the token generating cards we now have, I think Diabolic Edict and Chainer's Edict are overrated.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
I don't think you can make a blanket statement like this. My cube has numerous ways of cheating big fatties into play, some of which have shroud. Edicts are a good answer to this. Not so good against Myr Battlesphere of course.
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I don't think edicts are bad, but I think some Cubes that still play them would be better off with Victim of Night, Doom Blade or Ultimate Price instead.
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Bitterblossom
Dark Confidant
Pack Rat
Nezumi Graverobber
Oona's Prowler
Hypnotic Specter
Braids, Cabal Minion
Murderous Redcap
Shriekmaw
Duskmantle Seer
Baleful Strix
Spike Jester
Plus a list of the artifact creatures the Nekrataals can't hit:
Mirror Entity royally screws Victim of Night though.
The more I think about it the more I agree with this. It's true that Thrun is a real pain in the @$$ but there were so many times that I could have survived had I been able to choose which creature to kill. Since I still have Fleshbag I'm comfortable replacing Chainer's Edict with either Snuff Out, Doom Blade or Victim of Night. They all have their pros and cons, and though I am leaning on Snuff Out right now, I do find Victim of Night quite appealing.
1. Shriekmaw - versatile, evasive threat, and sweet art
2. Skinrender - solid body, stops persist, zombie
3. Liliana of the Veil - edict that can repeat
4. Consuming Vapors - 2 for 1, lifegain
5. Go for the Throat - your standard middle-of-the-road removal
6. Dismember - versatile casting cost, gives an out against regenerators
7. Tragic Slip - cheap, fairly easy to achieve morbid, kills pretty much anything that can be targeted
8. Diabolic Edict - out against protection/shroud/hexproof guys
9. Fume Spitter - the black Mogg Fanatic, kills utility dudes, can mess up combat math
10. Shadowborn Demon - testing in place of Nekrataal, no experience yet
I rank all the 2 for 1's higher than the CP spot removal.
GFTT is #1. It hits nearly anything you need to hit. Kills on sight. The drawback/untargetability of the spell is very limited. Wurmcoil is public enemy #1 against this but Chainer also has issues with this card.
Chainer is a close #2. It doesn't target, so it's a notch lower in my book. Yes, that's a strong enough argument in my book because [threat] + [durdle] means you're not gauranteed killing [threat]. This is where GFFT is the better pure removal card. In other words, unless you're facing [threat] on an open field, Chainer isn't direct removal. The upside is that it has flashback. FB is pretty relevant. Overall, Chainer is also is a way to psuedo-deal with hexproof fellas not named Thrun. Still has issues with Wurmcoil like GFFT, but can at least force the sacrifice.
Liliana of the Veil #3. It's a solid cost for an edict + damage sponge. The upside of this card is the ability to just win the game by its own. It's a PWer. Aggressive costs all around for the abilities you get. The edict effect is pretty strong.
Snuff Out is my #4. Take the merits of doom blade and then make the playable cost even more aggressive than dismember (free vs 1 colorless). You can be on the attack or on the backfoot and the card is good. Yes, damage to yourself sucks, but the 'free' clause is a tremendous boost.
Doom Blade / Ultimate Price #5. Not as strong as above. Better than below
Consuming Vapors #6. It is tremendous value. The "downside" is a hard cost of 3B. Fantastic card, but removal for 0-2 definitely beat 4. I don't care what deck you're running.
Diabolic Edict #7. The original 'edict'. It's faster than Chainer's (literally) but lacks flashback. That's a huge blow. It will never recur unless you snapcaster/PiF/YawgWill this thing. Even the more expensive Liliana does more in that regard.
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Some of the better ones are:
Fume Spitter
Tragic Slip
Disfigure <-- my favorite out of this list
Snuff Out (free)
Again, I wouldn't count Dismember here because that card gets swiped by nonblack drafters a lot.
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I like me some Skinrender, but let's not get crazy here. Shriekmaw's evoke is just crazy priced, and getting itself into the yard is often a good thing in black decks.
I like all the other cards more than Chainer's. Most of my black decks will never hit 7 mana, so the flashback is often irrelevant. I like your other descriptions, though.
But yes, Consuming Vapors is ridiculous value. I have been beaten by that card (it felt like) a few times. Playing it into one creature is great - it guarantees a free turn to develop or play a board.
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That's interesting. I run all of these at 360 and never really thought it was too many until now. To be fair though, we do 2-man winstons a lot, so the extra density is nice. I think I'll consider cutting chainer's edict or doomblade though, as this seems like a comparable ranking to what my playgroups would be.
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We focus on 2-man Winston and run Fredo's top five there.
Dismember
Go for the Throat
Snuff Out
Consuming Vapors
Diabolic Edict
Seven doesn't seem that excessive to me, but five felt right to us.
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