Maybe your cube has less targeted removal than other ones, but having your control finishers protect themselves is a pretty big deal. Or maybe your cube sees less creature combat than mine, so protecting you while winning isn't as crucial. I don't know.
This is off-topic. The entire reason we got into this discussion is because you said Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx aren't finishers.
I'm not saying you can't win games with other creatures.
I don't think anyone accused you of saying that.
I'm saying that if I want a dedicated control finisher, Ætherling is the best one. Meloku is also great. But I think Sphinx makes for a pretty poor finisher. It's great for drawing some cards and then dying. It's not very good at being a lone win condition.
I don't think a finisher has to be a lone win condition to be considered a finisher either. I think being called a finisher is subjective rather than objective and trying to put criteria on what can and cannot be called a finisher is an exercise in futility.
So, Morphling and Ætherling are the only cards that exist that would meet your criteria of being a finisher, or is Meloku now considered a finisher too?
Because if so, I think the original point that I made which brought us down this rabbit trail would ring true -- I would prefer Meloku as a finisher against non-control matchups rather than Ætherling.
He is saying that the role of finisher is defined by how well a card does those 3 things. And Aertherling does 2/3 of the things better than almost any other card while also doing the third thing decently. It meets the qualifications of being a finisher better than any other 7 mana or less card in blue.
I would maybe reword the qualifications slightly as:
1. Kills the opponent fast.
2. Keeps itself alive.
3. Keeps you alive.
In roughly that order of importance.
Also, being the best finisher doesn't mean it is the best card. Meloku can be a value engine, a mid range card, a token maker, a board control card, and more. Aertherling is a better finisher, but Meloku could still be a better card depending on how you value those other functions.
I don't disagree with any of this.
I said that I would prefer Meloku or Consecrated Sphinx as finishers against non-control decks.
Wtwlf123 said Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx cannot be called dedicated control finishers.
I said the distinction is arbitrary.
He believes it is not.
I still don't understand why I can't call Meloku a dedicated control finisher.
I would call Meloku a universally playable blue creature. I play it in pretty much every deck that can possibly cast it. Even tempo decks. So it's not "dedicated" as a control finisher. Neither is Sphinx, which is more of a curve-topping draw engine for every blue deck that plans on sticking around past T5 (so every non aggro/tempo deck). So again, I wouldn't consider that slot "dedicated" to a control finisher either (especially since I consider Sphinx to be particularly poor in that role). When I'm looking to include a creature that's going to be one of my lone 3-4 win conditions in the entire deck? That's what I'd consider to be a "dedicated control finisher" and I'd want them to fill out those requirements I outlined. I think Meloku does play the role of control finisher when you need him to, but I don't consider the slot dedicated to that one role. Ætherling is. It goes in one type of deck, and it's monstrous in that one role it plays.
I think you're taking this a bit too seriously. In a control deck with enough win conditions, every top-end creature is a "finisher". But if it's a multi-faceted creature that goes in a ton of decks, it's not really dedicated to being a control finisher. I'm not saying you can't use other creatures as finishers in control decks, I'm simply saying that if you want to include some creatures to exclusively play that role, dedicated control finishers are a bit different and they have different criteria to meet. In mono blue, the only ones I cube with right now are the two 'ling dudes. But you can pair them with other creatures that meet those three requirements from the other colors, or guys like Meloku that can also perform the role to have enough win-cons. It's a hard set of criteria to meet, but there are other dudes that do it. Meloku can fit the bill because it can do all three of those things. But I think Ætherling is better in that role, because it does a more efficient job of accomplishing those bullet points I look for.
I would only really call Aetherling a dedicated control finisher, personally. It's not even that great in reanimator as it gets better with mana and requires blue, versus a lot of creatures that you reanimate and forget about.
I just played C. Sphinx in a G/U midrange deck to replenish my hand, or perhaps reanimator to do the same (and be a token big fatty). Meloku I would also run in token or midrangey builds. Probably not tempo, personally, but yeah it's OK there.
All three of these cards are great, but do different stuff. I don't see the issue.
I think there's a distinction between a high mana creature and a dedicated control finisher. I think that's where the communication breakdown is coming in at.
You asserted a point, and even went so far as to say:
Quote from wtwlf123 »
I don't consider the distinction arbitrary.
If anyone is being too serious about the distinction between finishers and high-cost blue cards, it is you.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
In a control deck with enough win conditions, every top-end creature is a "finisher".
So why did you originally say there was a communication breakdown when I called Meloku a finisher?
Quote from wtwlf123 »
Meloku can fit the bill because it can do all three of those things. But I think Ætherling is better in that role, because it does a more efficient job of accomplishing those bullet points I look for.
I wasn't aware Meloku could protect itself. In fact, you even said this:
Quote from wtwlf123 »
A case can definitely be made for Meloku, because the tokens help accomplish two of those tasks, but his vulnerability to removal makes him somewhat less reliable at closing out games.
I think you have your foot in a lot of doors in this communication breakdown.
Here is what I believe about this discussion, please feel free to correct me or leave it as it is:
1) Anything can be considered a finisher or not a finisher. It largely depends on the deck. Serra Angel was an appropriate finisher for "The Deck."
2) Aetherling, I believe, is without dispute the best control-vs-control finisher.
3) I prefer Meloku and Sphinx to Aetherling in matchups where it is not control-vs-control. You may prefer otherwise, that's fine.
There's a difference between a creature being used as a finisher and a creature included in the cube with the role of "dedicated control finisher".
You said that you prefer Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx as control finishers.
I illustrated the distinction between the two, and said that I thought Ætherling does a better job as a dedicated control finisher for the reasons I mentioned.
That is all.
I wasn't aware Meloku could protect itself.
If you cast it with 6 or more mana available, you could argue that the tokens he creates can generate enough value to "protect itself" in a sense. Even if he himself dies to spot removal.
If you cast it with 6 or more mana available, you could argue that the tokens he creates can generate enough value to "protect itself" in a sense. Even if he himself dies to spot removal.
EDIT: Then if Meloku fits that aspect of your criteria, he fits all three criteria for being a dedicated control finisher and there's no reason to even say there should be a distinction between him as a high mana blue creature and a dedicated control finisher.
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K, so me calling Meloku as a finisher was fine. That's all I wanted.
I agree that Aetherling is sweet and definitely awesome in control-vs-control, and it's great that we all have different preferences, life would be boring if we all were just robots that drafted off a pick order list.
Oh, but it is. 95% of the time, if it's on the battlefield, it will not be beaten. That number only climbs higher the earlier you get it into play. You won't get a big goofy effect like draw 7 cards or destroy 3 noncreature permanents, but in 3 turns the game will be over all the same. It even has a bonus perk of completely negating the drawbacks on Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, Necromancy, and even Whip of Erebos.
This is off-topic. The entire reason we got into this discussion is because you said Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx aren't finishers.
I don't think anyone accused you of saying that.
I don't think a finisher has to be a lone win condition to be considered a finisher either. I think being called a finisher is subjective rather than objective and trying to put criteria on what can and cannot be called a finisher is an exercise in futility.
So, Morphling and Ætherling are the only cards that exist that would meet your criteria of being a finisher, or is Meloku now considered a finisher too?
Because if so, I think the original point that I made which brought us down this rabbit trail would ring true -- I would prefer Meloku as a finisher against non-control matchups rather than Ætherling.
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Correct. I think that Meloku is the better card, even if Ætherling fills the role of dedicated control finisher better.
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I don't disagree with any of this.
I said that I would prefer Meloku or Consecrated Sphinx as finishers against non-control decks.
Wtwlf123 said Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx cannot be called dedicated control finishers.
I said the distinction is arbitrary.
He believes it is not.
I still don't understand why I can't call Meloku a dedicated control finisher.
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I think you're being very arbitrary in trying to give requirements for what cards people can and cannot call finishers.
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I just played C. Sphinx in a G/U midrange deck to replenish my hand, or perhaps reanimator to do the same (and be a token big fatty). Meloku I would also run in token or midrangey builds. Probably not tempo, personally, but yeah it's OK there.
All three of these cards are great, but do different stuff. I don't see the issue.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
How am I taking things "too seriously," and what does that even mean? We're having a discussion about what you meant when you said this:
You asserted a point, and even went so far as to say:
If anyone is being too serious about the distinction between finishers and high-cost blue cards, it is you.
So why did you originally say there was a communication breakdown when I called Meloku a finisher?
I wasn't aware Meloku could protect itself. In fact, you even said this:
I think you have your foot in a lot of doors in this communication breakdown.
Here is what I believe about this discussion, please feel free to correct me or leave it as it is:
1) Anything can be considered a finisher or not a finisher. It largely depends on the deck. Serra Angel was an appropriate finisher for "The Deck."
2) Aetherling, I believe, is without dispute the best control-vs-control finisher.
3) I prefer Meloku and Sphinx to Aetherling in matchups where it is not control-vs-control. You may prefer otherwise, that's fine.
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You said that you prefer Meloku and Consecrated Sphinx as control finishers.
I illustrated the distinction between the two, and said that I thought Ætherling does a better job as a dedicated control finisher for the reasons I mentioned.
That is all.
If you cast it with 6 or more mana available, you could argue that the tokens he creates can generate enough value to "protect itself" in a sense. Even if he himself dies to spot removal.
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EDIT: Then if Meloku fits that aspect of your criteria, he fits all three criteria for being a dedicated control finisher and there's no reason to even say there should be a distinction between him as a high mana blue creature and a dedicated control finisher.
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K, so me calling Meloku as a finisher was fine. That's all I wanted.
I agree that Aetherling is sweet and definitely awesome in control-vs-control, and it's great that we all have different preferences, life would be boring if we all were just robots that drafted off a pick order list.
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Oh, but it is. 95% of the time, if it's on the battlefield, it will not be beaten. That number only climbs higher the earlier you get it into play. You won't get a big goofy effect like draw 7 cards or destroy 3 noncreature permanents, but in 3 turns the game will be over all the same. It even has a bonus perk of completely negating the drawbacks on Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, Necromancy, and even Whip of Erebos.
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Completely agree with this.
Cheers,
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