I have a 720 and Colonnade is classified in "lands" so that manafixing doesn't take up playable guild slots. That said, assuming Colonnade is not in the guild slot, does Lavinia really beat out:
I only run 9 of those and Lavinia is below all 15 of them for me.
Out of that list, I'd run Lavinia over Skyknight, Blink, Absorb, Charm, Wall of Denial, Plumeveil, Deputy, Guildmage, Reaver, Mirrorweave, and maybe Revelation (I've go no experience with Revelation so I can't rightly say for sure). I think Lavinia is really solid. She's ~5-7th best Azorius card to me.
It's a pretty powerful effect. It's strapped to a not-so-exciting body, but what can you do. The pro:red doesn't mean much on a 5cc creature with 4 toughness. But the effect? A super-Sleep variant that stops PW activations and utility triggers in addition to no attacks and no blocks? Not bad at all. I could see this as a good curve-topper for WU tempo decks, and maybe being valuable in some cube settings. I'd consider it somewhere in the #5-#8 range for Azorius. WU has great top-end cards, and then sinks like a stone pretty quick. Larger cubes could get some value from this critter.
Its effect also triggers on ETB/CIP, not "when cast", so blink effects and UW friends such as Venser, who lifts things up and puts them down = abuse. I really really like this girl for the fact that she's alpha strike AND prison defense in 1 card. That flexibility for super finishing offense AND unforeseen/surprise defense is key. I think she's debatably a top 5 as I write this for UW.
1. Geist
2. Venser
3/4/5. Some combination of this new chick, Verdict, Sphere, Grand Arbiter IV depending upon preference
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I like this guy but I'm not sure how I can find a place for him. I'm too big a fan of Grand Arbiter shenanigans to get rid of him and I think Geist, Venser, Verdict, Sphere are currently too good to be cut for rando guy.
i like the fact that it hits 4 CMC and below. Turn 5 or earlier cast of this could effectively lockdown a board. And mercy to your opponent if you drop Venser the turn after
I can understand people not running Arbiter, and I just personally have a man crush on him. I know he's not nearly the best but I love his shenanigans too much.
Had Lavinia in a draft last night and was thoroughly impressed. I was surprised how useful shutting off non-creature permanents was. I set up a soft-lock a few times with Karakas and imagine it'd be equally easy to set up with something like Venser, the Sojourner. She bought time in situations I needed to get additional mana or cards.
I could definitely see Lavinia being better than Grand Arbiter. I look forward to more testing.
Had Lavinia in a draft last night and was thoroughly impressed. I was surprised how useful shutting off non-creature permanents was. I set up a soft-lock a few times with Karakas and imagine it'd be equally easy to set up with something like Venser, the Sojourner. She bought time in situations I needed to get additional mana or cards.
I could definitely see Lavinia being better than Grand Arbiter. I look forward to more testing.
Where do you rank grand arbiter in your U/W section?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to Cube but don't have one? Check the map if anyone is in your area and get cubing!
Where do you rank grand arbiter in your U/W section?
I don't rank it very highly anymore. I cube 5 Azorius cards and Arbiter isn't one of them. And I think Lavinia is better than Arbiter, so that's puts him in ~7th place. In fact, I think he might be as far down as 8th or 9th.
I have a 6 card section and I include Geist, Venser, Sphere, Verdict, Arbiter, Revelation. Of those 6 I only feel that Arbiter is actually worse than this guy and I've just got toooo big a man crush on him to cut him. I don't think Geist, Sphere, Verdict need explanation and Venser just does such nasty things that I think cutting him is wrong. Revelation is a personal favorite of mine and thus would never cut.
I'm going to cut arbiter to test out Lavinia but if he isn't flat out insane, i might go back to Arbiter.
I think you'll enjoy this effect. It's a pretty amazing Sleep variant that stops all their activated abilities, planeswalker triggers and everything else. So for the extra W, you're getting a 4/4 body strapped to the effect. Pretty good.
On a seperate note, I am seriously trying to make some kind of block deck that will play Lavinia for the PT. I'll probably go 0-6 in SD with said deck but damnit I want it to work!
Geist is by a wide margin the best UW card in the cube. He's redonkkkulous
@kojiro: Good to hear you had a positive experience with Lav. What deck were you playing? Pure UW midrange? She has so many positive interactions with blink effects and bounce. Friggin nuts I can't wait to play with her.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I'm running Lavina in my cube. How does she rank compared to the other Azorius cards Geist, Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere and Venser? I decided to replace Plumeveil with Venser. I will end up with Venser, Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere and Lavina the Tenth in my cube.
I decided to try her, and she did well (read: enabled an alpha swing for lethal) the one time someone used her. As a replacement for Absorb in my 9-card section in 720, she's fine, but I'm looking to Oust her as soon as something better comes along.
I currently have about a 400 card cube. I have 4 cards for each guild. I currently run Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere, Plumeveil and Lavina of the Tenth. I was going to replace Plumeveil with Veneser. I used to have Azorius Guildmage and replaced the Guildmage with Lavina. I felt the Guildmage is weaker compared to the newer Azorius Cards out there. Lavina is the best creature card out there if you don't have Geist. I don't currently have Geist in my cube because it's a budget cube. I'm trying to keep the multicolored cards $5 an under.
My friend ran Lavinia in his 810-card cube for a few months, but he cut her because he claimed she was too good. His reasoning is that she:
1. is too abusable with repeatable bounce/blink effects (Venser, the Sojourner, Crystal Shard, Erratic Portal, Waterfront Bouncer, etc.)
2. completely shuts down aggro decks without a way for them to deal with her
3. detains noncreature permanents, such as Equipment and planeswalkers
4. takes forever to win with when abused, unlike the other degenerate combos in the cube (like Entomb + reanimation spell, or Tinker + Blightsteel Colossus)
Personally, I think he's full of crap. Despite my best efforts, I can't convince him to put her back in. What do you all think? Is there anything I should say to change his mind?
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
1. Broken with blink - debatable. Its value depends on your opponent's cards, not yours.
2. Shuts down aggro - so do Thragtusk or Baneslayer Angel, and those are monocolor. I don't consider this a strike coming from a multicolor card.
3. Detains noncreature permanents - This actually promotes interactivity, since noncreature permanents have proportionately less cards that deal with them compared to creatures. But the drift I'm getting is that your friend believes it's too non-interactive.
4. Slow wincon - sounds similar to Spike Weaver + Volrath's Stronghold, which I think are both still kicking in my cube. This one probably depends on the group's preference.
Nice avatar by the way. I still drop into the arcade occasionally for some Chrono Phantasma
Out of that list, I'd run Lavinia over Skyknight, Blink, Absorb, Charm, Wall of Denial, Plumeveil, Deputy, Guildmage, Reaver, Mirrorweave, and maybe Revelation (I've go no experience with Revelation so I can't rightly say for sure). I think Lavinia is really solid. She's ~5-7th best Azorius card to me.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Its effect also triggers on ETB/CIP, not "when cast", so blink effects and UW friends such as Venser, who lifts things up and puts them down = abuse. I really really like this girl for the fact that she's alpha strike AND prison defense in 1 card. That flexibility for super finishing offense AND unforeseen/surprise defense is key. I think she's debatably a top 5 as I write this for UW.
1. Geist
2. Venser
3/4/5. Some combination of this new chick, Verdict, Sphere, Grand Arbiter IV depending upon preference
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Cube on Cubetutor
Come trade with Puca Trade!, the best place to get those hard to get cards no one else will trade!
I could definitely see Lavinia being better than Grand Arbiter. I look forward to more testing.
Joy of Cubing Podcast
My 600 Card Unpowered Cube
My Combo Cube
Ouch. Karakas is permanently on my radar as a card to test out.
I think this is probably the case, although I'm not going to be running either. Still, glad she's working out for you. Thanks for the feedback!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Where do you rank grand arbiter in your U/W section?
The Great Cube Map!
My Powered Cube
Draft it here!
I don't rank it very highly anymore. I cube 5 Azorius cards and Arbiter isn't one of them. And I think Lavinia is better than Arbiter, so that's puts him in ~7th place. In fact, I think he might be as far down as 8th or 9th.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm going to cut arbiter to test out Lavinia but if he isn't flat out insane, i might go back to Arbiter.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
@kojiro: Good to hear you had a positive experience with Lav. What deck were you playing? Pure UW midrange? She has so many positive interactions with blink effects and bounce. Friggin nuts I can't wait to play with her.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I've played this white/blue/black, and the soft lock this gal creates is very impressive, especially if you are on the play.
If you play multiplayer as welll for cube, she will make you an instant target!
Cube on Cubetutor
Come trade with Puca Trade!, the best place to get those hard to get cards no one else will trade!
I currently have about a 400 card cube. I have 4 cards for each guild. I currently run Supreme Verdict, Detention Sphere, Plumeveil and Lavina of the Tenth. I was going to replace Plumeveil with Veneser. I used to have Azorius Guildmage and replaced the Guildmage with Lavina. I felt the Guildmage is weaker compared to the newer Azorius Cards out there. Lavina is the best creature card out there if you don't have Geist. I don't currently have Geist in my cube because it's a budget cube. I'm trying to keep the multicolored cards $5 an under.
1. is too abusable with repeatable bounce/blink effects (Venser, the Sojourner, Crystal Shard, Erratic Portal, Waterfront Bouncer, etc.)
2. completely shuts down aggro decks without a way for them to deal with her
3. detains noncreature permanents, such as Equipment and planeswalkers
4. takes forever to win with when abused, unlike the other degenerate combos in the cube (like Entomb + reanimation spell, or Tinker + Blightsteel Colossus)
Personally, I think he's full of crap. Despite my best efforts, I can't convince him to put her back in. What do you all think? Is there anything I should say to change his mind?
1. Broken with blink - debatable. Its value depends on your opponent's cards, not yours.
2. Shuts down aggro - so do Thragtusk or Baneslayer Angel, and those are monocolor. I don't consider this a strike coming from a multicolor card.
3. Detains noncreature permanents - This actually promotes interactivity, since noncreature permanents have proportionately less cards that deal with them compared to creatures. But the drift I'm getting is that your friend believes it's too non-interactive.
4. Slow wincon - sounds similar to Spike Weaver + Volrath's Stronghold, which I think are both still kicking in my cube. This one probably depends on the group's preference.
Nice avatar by the way. I still drop into the arcade occasionally for some Chrono Phantasma
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge