I'm not nearly as optimistic as many of you seem to be about this card. But that is a good thing, I'll just check how many Cubes still play Pyrewild Shaman come M14 to get an idea of how good it turns out in actual gameplay.
he costs SO much mana. Like, all of the mana. 5 mana(spread out over a couple turns possibly so that is a plus) for a +3/+1 reusable uncounterable pump spell sound bad. The creature version costs 6. And the discard outlet is actually probably the best mode at 3 mana. This guy seems to me without testing to be the dud of the set, the one people get excited about that just flops.
Don't get me wrong I'm going to test it, but my hopes aren't high.
he costs SO much mana. Like, all of the mana. 5 mana(spread out over a couple turns possibly so that is a plus) for a +3/+1 reusable uncounterable pump spell sound bad. The creature version costs 6. And the discard outlet is actually probably the best mode at 3 mana. This guy seems to me without testing to be the dud of the set, the one people get excited about that just flops.
Don't get me wrong I'm going to test it, but my hopes aren't high.
Well, the pump and creature modes are a tad overcosted, but not unthinkable (he's not a 1/2 or anything dumb). After that, the mana spent is just gravy, because you are getting a lot of value out of a single card.
Frankly, three mana to recur a pump spell out of the graveyard that can be a creature in a pinch sounds downright cheap, which is why they added the damage clause, I'd imagine.
I don't think the correct way to evaluate this card is as Brute Force with Buyback 4.
You don't need to spent the mana in one turn. The pump is uncounterable. The recur trigger can happen at any time your dudes bash in, giving late game weenies a ton of value (especially with haste). He can sometimes force bad blocks by being in your graveyard. He can fill a gap in your curve, and if the board is open can get in for three by himself. He can act as a pseudo Squee in non-aggro decks.
I'd love all my aggro decks to curve out perfectly and win by T4. But in practice, things happen. Giving my aggro decks some reach in the form of a fairly aggressive, recurable threat seems like a win.
Each ability seems a little overcosted, but when you take the whole package into account the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. I'm excited to test this guy out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
I thinking a better comparison is with firebolt. It definitely seems like flashback to me. And if a flashback of R4 is good enough for shock than is sure is for the combat trick, let alone the fact yo uspread if over 2 turns, can keep getting it back, and it can pcik up a sword when you dont want a pump spell.
I think this guy has a beter chance of being my #1 3 drop in red, than not making it at all.
The effect isn't comparable to shock at all. I play multiple shock-with-upside cards and zero red pump effects. If the pump alone was comparable to shock, wouldn't a lot more cubes run brute force, which is better twice over?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
The effect isn't comparable to shock at all. I play multiple shock-with-upside cards and zero red pump effects. If the pump alone was comparable to shock, wouldn't a lot more cubes run brute force, which is better twice over?
And if shock was powerful enough wouldn't you be playing shock in addition to those cards that were shock with upside? I don't think the effect is comparable to firebolt, in that I agree with you. However, shaman may be like many other cards where the power level lays in the versatility. How many cards make the cut in cube because the sum is greater than its parts individually and collectively. I'm hoping that this card, with its individually clunky and overcosted parts, gives me that type of value because of options.
I'm hoping that this card, with its individually clunky and overvisted parts, gives me that type of value because of options.
Agreed. He's a 3-power beater for 3. He's 3 extra damage for 2 if you have an unblocked creature. It can be a combat trick if your opponent decides to block your dudes. And you can have opportunities to recur it for additional value in any of its modes. I don't think he's going to be overwhelmingly good or anything, but I think he'll be a solid workhorse for typical red decks. A great card to have in a Winston draft or your Sealed pool (if you play those two formats).
The issue I have with the recursion is combat damage is a pretty huge condition once opposing decks have stabilized.
Generally red agro in cube is extremely all-in. If your opponent stabalizes, you lose unless you can burn them out.
Idea is to have a very low curve with high-powered burn spells to back it up.
Once opponents have stabilized, a 3/1 pump spell (that your opponent knows you have) is not that high impact of a spell.
It's when your opponents is on the ropes or haven't stabilized that the pump spell is at it's best. In that scenario , probably not too many lands have been played and 3 mana is a significant buy back cost.
It will happen, but chances are high that the recursion won't be relevant more than once. And the time it is relevant it has to not kill your tempo to get much value.
AND this value has to make up significantly for the fact the card is underpowered without the buyback.
A spell like forbid has an upside of multiple buybacks.
Chandra's pheonix recursion can be relevant post stabalization and has finishing power.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I don't really understand the point you're making here.
Implied that shock by itself is not good enough which why it needs upside. Bringing up brute force isn't really that fair. Shock by itself not worth it, pump by itself not worth it. Give added versatility and reevaluate.
Rofl. You can actually bloodrush it, wait for the trigger on first strike damage, bring it back, blood rush again during normal combat damage and bring it back a second time.
Granted it will take 10 mana to do it all in one turn, but hilarious. ;P
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
Double strike is making a huge impact in my cube. Mirran Crusader, Silverblade Paladin, and Boros Charm are making all kinds of pump much better, and scarier.
This kind of pump is great to add as you create the tension in blocking that non-cube formats having, and even better it can be a threat on its own.
I have also invested in a berserk which is great with this guy in a couple ways.
But still. Slaughterhorn is "only" good enough for pauper and maybe peasant.
FYI: Slaughterhorn has been pretty good for us in my 450 unpowered cube. I know I'm incredibly in the minority on him but I've used him to keep creatures alive, to kill planeswalkers my opponent didn't think I could kill through combat, and to get the final damage through to win, and I've also just cast him on turn 2 and attacked for 3 with him.
He's not the best card in the world but he's better than people who haven't tested him seem to think he is.
He's talking about cubes this is the cube forum). Not Standard.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Don't get me wrong I'm going to test it, but my hopes aren't high.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Well, the pump and creature modes are a tad overcosted, but not unthinkable (he's not a 1/2 or anything dumb). After that, the mana spent is just gravy, because you are getting a lot of value out of a single card.
Frankly, three mana to recur a pump spell out of the graveyard that can be a creature in a pinch sounds downright cheap, which is why they added the damage clause, I'd imagine.
You don't need to spent the mana in one turn. The pump is uncounterable. The recur trigger can happen at any time your dudes bash in, giving late game weenies a ton of value (especially with haste). He can sometimes force bad blocks by being in your graveyard. He can fill a gap in your curve, and if the board is open can get in for three by himself. He can act as a pseudo Squee in non-aggro decks.
I'd love all my aggro decks to curve out perfectly and win by T4. But in practice, things happen. Giving my aggro decks some reach in the form of a fairly aggressive, recurable threat seems like a win.
Each ability seems a little overcosted, but when you take the whole package into account the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. I'm excited to test this guy out.
I think this guy has a beter chance of being my #1 3 drop in red, than not making it at all.
And if shock was powerful enough wouldn't you be playing shock in addition to those cards that were shock with upside? I don't think the effect is comparable to firebolt, in that I agree with you. However, shaman may be like many other cards where the power level lays in the versatility. How many cards make the cut in cube because the sum is greater than its parts individually and collectively. I'm hoping that this card, with its individually clunky and overcosted parts, gives me that type of value because of options.
Agreed. He's a 3-power beater for 3. He's 3 extra damage for 2 if you have an unblocked creature. It can be a combat trick if your opponent decides to block your dudes. And you can have opportunities to recur it for additional value in any of its modes. I don't think he's going to be overwhelmingly good or anything, but I think he'll be a solid workhorse for typical red decks. A great card to have in a Winston draft or your Sealed pool (if you play those two formats).
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Generally red agro in cube is extremely all-in. If your opponent stabalizes, you lose unless you can burn them out.
Idea is to have a very low curve with high-powered burn spells to back it up.
Once opponents have stabilized, a 3/1 pump spell (that your opponent knows you have) is not that high impact of a spell.
It's when your opponents is on the ropes or haven't stabilized that the pump spell is at it's best. In that scenario , probably not too many lands have been played and 3 mana is a significant buy back cost.
It will happen, but chances are high that the recursion won't be relevant more than once. And the time it is relevant it has to not kill your tempo to get much value.
AND this value has to make up significantly for the fact the card is underpowered without the buyback.
A spell like forbid has an upside of multiple buybacks.
Chandra's pheonix recursion can be relevant post stabalization and has finishing power.
This is why I'm calling the card a bust.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
I don't really understand the point you're making here.
Implied that shock by itself is not good enough which why it needs upside. Bringing up brute force isn't really that fair. Shock by itself not worth it, pump by itself not worth it. Give added versatility and reevaluate.
Yup, great point. Versatile cards are great here, especially 2C ones. So many three drops are 1CC.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Then play it as a 3/1 creature? That's the entire point of its versatility.
As a side note, it's pretty great with Trample guys.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Granted it will take 10 mana to do it all in one turn, but hilarious. ;P
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Double strike is making a huge impact in my cube. Mirran Crusader, Silverblade Paladin, and Boros Charm are making all kinds of pump much better, and scarier.
This kind of pump is great to add as you create the tension in blocking that non-cube formats having, and even better it can be a threat on its own.
I have also invested in a berserk which is great with this guy in a couple ways.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
FYI: Slaughterhorn has been pretty good for us in my 450 unpowered cube. I know I'm incredibly in the minority on him but I've used him to keep creatures alive, to kill planeswalkers my opponent didn't think I could kill through combat, and to get the final damage through to win, and I've also just cast him on turn 2 and attacked for 3 with him.
He's not the best card in the world but he's better than people who haven't tested him seem to think he is.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!