MTG Salvation

Quote from calibretto »

@Monkey: In addition to cuttups' list above, I'd also run Cloudgoat over Mirran Crusdader, Soulfire Grand Master, and Relic Seeker. I know Relic Seeker is in for testing, but IMO, if testing that card means I'm cutting Cloudgoat, it's not worth testing. On a similar note, though, I wouldn't be cutting Cloudgoat to make room to test a card like Relic Seeker anyway. Finding the bottom 10 cards in a 50 card section isn't relevant until something is up to replace those cards. Also, you wouldn't just automatically go to the bottom of the list to find a cut for something you want to add. You'd evaluate the list as a whole, the themes you're pushing, what the new card brings to the table, how your group feels about specific cards, which cards are under performing, and all sorts of other metrics to make an educated cut.

That's isn't the point I'm making in the beginning though. I was responding to this claim,

Quote from wtwlf123 »

I don't think that Cloudgoat Ranger is one of the weakest white cards in any section.

Which that I think Cloudgoat is one of the weaker white card in the section for sure. And in 270 and 180 cube, it'll be the weakest card in the section probably.

Even if it were, that means nothing. Because it's the best card at doing what it does. You can shrink the cube down, but it doesn't make Cloudgoat a better cut in any way.

Example:



Mana Drain is the weakest card from that section.

While objectively a true statement, it has no bearing whatsoever on properly evaluating the card's validity for the cube. I have a TON of cards in my on-deck binder that are intrinsically more powerful than cards that are in the cube, but due to fit, curve, role, need, critical mass, etc... the cube is better off running the cards that are currently in it. Even if Cloudgoat were one of the weakest cards in the white section by one metric, the justification for inclusion would argue otherwise. So by one metric (intrinsic powerlevel) it may be "weak" but my another metric (cube importance) it's not "weak" at all.

Went over your cube.
I would not play cloudgoat ranger in your cube for sure. I wouldn't berate you for including it, but it's definitely one of the weakest cards in your white section.
No mimic vat, no honor of the pure, no spear of heliod, no momentary blink, no mirrari's wake, no flickerwisp, no opposition

Lacks most of the synergies that makes me ever happy to play the card. Opposition being the biggest one...

Man, no Vat or Opposition? I'd make some other changes first, and then get Cloudgoat in the list, lol.

I'd go with Stifle, and Flickerwisp at 360. Stifle feels like it has more worthwhile targets the smaller the cube is, and cloudgoat seems better in bigger lists with lots of token support. Its a good card in 360, but its not stellar.

Quote from Snobby Bok Choy »

Working on a cube with a buddy. How important is Sower of Temptation[?] Keep in mind this is MP cube. I thought some newish card came out which was similar but I may have just read too many threads. I will get that link to cubetutor up soon

It's not particularly critical to the way blue operates, but it is a really powerful card. I'd look to acquire one, but you don't need to hold off drafting until you pick one up or anything.

The new card you're talking about might be Dragonlord Silumgar, which is also a fine card. Sower is better, but they're both very playable.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

Quote from Snobby Bok Choy »

Working on a cube with a buddy. How important is Sower of Temptation Keep in mind this is MP cube. I thought some newish card came out which was similar but I may have just read too many threads. I will get that link to cubetutor up soon

It's not particularly critical to the way blue operates, but it is a really powerful card. I'd look to acquire one, but you don't need to hold off drafting until you pick one up or anything.

AND A FUN ONE! Fun and powerful cards are the best kind of cards.

Quote from wtwlf123 »

Man, no Vat or Opposition? I'd make some other changes first, and then get Cloudgoat in the list, lol.

Vat was too mana consuming from what I test of it. It's a fine card to run in 360, but hardly needed, and not the direction I want my cube to go.

Opposition wasn't the kind of card my playgroup is interest in. Like you yourself say, different playgroup, different style.

And your statement just state Cloudgoat as "not the weakest" card. From that, I would assume you just mean power level. Your playgroup may like Cloudgoat role, my playgroup don't. And you do say "any section", which I do not think is true for me or my playgroup, so it's not really any section.

Quote from Monkey »

And your statement just state Cloudgoat as "not the weakest" card. From that, I would assume you just mean power level.

I was just talking about cube relevance. Not just raw powerlevel, but all the considerations that go into making a cube card good. It loses some value in cubes that don't support ways to abuse the etb effect, or token/anthem decks. But even still, it's 6 power and 4 bodies for 5 mana, which is pretty far ahead of the curve even by today's standards.

Let's just say it's good in cube that support ways to abuse etb effect and got weaker if you don't support it. I never say that Cloudgoat is a bad card. It's just a strong card that's weak in my cube. We're just going around in circle at this point.

Thundermaw Hellkite vs Siege Gang Commander vs Zealous Conscripts

Commander ≥ Hellkite >> Conscripts

Conscripts > Hellkite >> Commander

I think the point that a lot of people misses is that Conscripts can take control of a permanent, not only a creature. It is typically the kind of card that gives a possibility to the red mage to draft other things than RDW: it steals the big fatty of your opponent while he is full tapped, it answers a planeswalker ready to ultimate and allows to activate it if you can have some profit out, it deals with problematic permanent like a sword... It becomes totally broken if you have a way to blink it (looking at you venser...)
Hellkite is one of the best 5cc creature obviously, always a nice inclusion in wildfire.dec.

Quote from Monkey D Luffy »

Let's just say it's good in cube that support ways to abuse etb effect and got weaker if you don't support it. I never say that Cloudgoat is a bad card. It's just a strong card that's weak in my cube. We're just going around in circle at this point.

Thundermaw Hellkite vs Siege Gang Commander vs Zealous Conscripts

Commander > Hellkite > Conscripts

But all 3 are very close. I know very strong players in my playgroup who would put SGC at the bottom of the list.
Synergies of siege-gang commander put it over the top for me.
In your cube, I suspect SGC and Hellkite are about equal.
ZC makes my list due to infinite combo with 2x pod + 2x Kiki-Jiki's

All 3 cards are very good and I enjoy playing with them all. Thundermaw gives this BOOM!! HERE COMES THUNDERMAW feeling. Siege gang- I can't help but imagine flinging goblins at my opponents face, which makes me happy... ZC is by far the most fun, leading to insane cube plays that you would have never thought possible, mostly involving stealing planeswalkers.

I agree with all three being very close... There are board states where one would be much better than the others. And I've seen enough amazing Zealous Conscripts plays, as well as its ACS, to rate it significantly lower than the other two more popular choices.

Quote from Monkey D Luffy »

Let's just say it's good in cube that support ways to abuse etb effect and got weaker if you don't support it. I never say that Cloudgoat is a bad card. It's just a strong card that's weak in my cube. We're just going around in circle at this point.

Thundermaw Hellkite vs Siege Gang Commander vs Zealous Conscripts

I don't think any card is a must-run card, and certainly not Cloudgoat. It's great at what it does but that's doesn't mean you have to run it or that it's a good fit for your cube or group. I sometimes get the feeling that many here believe everyone should be running the same core list of cards and that does not make any sense to me. Run what your group enjoys drafting.

So raw power rankings (in a vacuum) I think go Hellkite > Commander >> Conscripts. Your average cube though has a lot of ways to use Commander and the removal can be pretty powerful, so I think Commander is the most valuable. Conscripts though has a super high ceiling if you heavily support sacrifice shenanigans. I'm running commander and conscripts and wouldn't cut either. Hellkite is generically good and isn't what I'm after personally.

I don't believe that everyone needs to run the same core group of cards. But if you're playing the archetypes Cloudgoat goes in (which I assumed most players did) and/or you value great cost efficiency and power/cost ratios, my opinion was that Cloudgoat wasn't one of the "weakest" cards. I never said everybody had to run it, only that I don't consider it to be a weak cube card.

Everybody should always cube with the cards their group wants to use. But that position is a given now. At some point, you have to debate card quality. If the sum of every discussion is "just run what you want" ...there's no longer any discussion to be had.

Hellkite >= Commander > Conscripts

I have a hard time finalizing black 3-drops in my list.
Xathrid Necromancer or Lifebane Zombie?

Quote from Tactuz »

Hellkite >= Commander > Conscripts

I have a hard time finalizing black 3-drops in my list.
Xathrid Necromancer or Lifebane Zombie?

I really don't like sideboard cards. Three mana for a 3/1 Intimidate is fine, but cube demands more than fine. I'd go for Xathrid.

I really like Xathrid Necromancer if you have any sort of Human theme (or just a ton of Humans in general). When I was looking at this recently, I was surprised to find that I actually had 63 Humans (in a 480), and Necromancer was relevant a lot more often than I initially thought.

Quote from Cythare »

I really like Xathrid Necromancer if you have any sort of Human theme (or just a ton of Humans in general). When I was looking at this recently, I was surprised to find that I actually had 63 Humans (in a 480), and Necromancer was relevant a lot more often than I initially thought.

I have 86 humans in my cube (720). They are hard to avoid . Xathrid has been alright, but nothing crazy. It shines in a pox/stax deck, but kinda bad in other decks (human tribal maybe? ).

Also while we're talking about humans in cube, would you play Mayor of Avabruck over something like River Boa?
(In a large cube that also supports green aggro)

I'd play Mayor over River Boa in pretty much any cube.

Agreeing with Fredo. The Boa-type guys are for peasant cubes. Mayor does real work.

Rift Bolt or Incinerate?
I run 360 unpowered, but maybe that's not relevant to the question.

Incinerate, not close.

I'd also run Lightning Strike and Searing Spear before Rift Bolt.