They're built for different decks. That being said:
Ancestral Vision is good early, but bad late. Treasure Cruise is bad early, but good late.
In the middle of the game, Cruise can at least imitate a Plea for Power, while Vision stays suspended as you die.
Cruise is better than I originally thought it was going to be, and Vision continued to be unimpressive, and was removed from my cube for the 3rd time.
I still think repeal is just bad though. Outside of anything costing 1 or 2, Into the Roil is equally good or better.
Do you mean anything between 0 and 3? Because if you're targeting a 3cc card, Repeal gets you a card for 3U instead of 2UU. So Into the Roil is better on 4+cc targets. And even the splashability of Repeal when targeting a 4-drop can be valuable.
...the blue vs. Colorless is rarely going to make a difference...
Really? I consider it a pretty big selling point. Especially for tempo decks where having blue as a second color is pretty common.
I consider them about equal, but in the cases where you need to bounce a high-cmc permanent early, you really need ItR. But I think Repeal is the stronger cube card on average.
Thoughts on Dragonlord Dromoka vs Ajani, Mentor of Heroes? I know from reading the SCD on the Dragon that it's not very well-received here, but I'm a pretty big fan of it as while it suffers against black removal, it's a huge play against red and blue strategies (burn and countermagic respectively) while also being a serviceable big dude against other white and/or green decks. Ajani is certainly powerful as well, and helps cement a game that appears to be at parity, so I'm torn between the two.
EDIT: Also, thoughts on Sidisi, Undead Vizier vs Silent Specter in a cube (there are morphs included, but the cube is too big to have an actual "morph theme")?
EDIT: Also, thoughts on Sidisi, Undead Vizier vs Silent Specter in a cube (there are morphs included, but the cube is too big to have an actual "morph theme")?
TBH I'd rather still have WG Ajani but I'd also much rather have Sidisi than Silent Specter (I've actually been decently happy with Sidisi lately, but I may be biased as 5-mana in black is shallow right now.)
...by the time you can produce four mana, double of one color shouldn't be too hard.
I think you should run the math on mana demand if you don't think there's a significant difference between 3C and 2CC. The difference in required blue sources for Repeal is half that of a kicked Into the Roil. You're looking at needing 10 sources of blue for a 75% chance of being able to play it kicked on T4 rather than the 5 sources that would be necessary for a full-value Repeal. Which means that Repeal is a better spell for decks using blue as a secondary color instead of a primary color.
...by the time you can produce four mana, double of one color shouldn't be too hard.
I think you should run the math on mana demand if you don't think there's a significant difference between 3C and 2CC. The difference in required blue sources for Repeal is half that of a kicked Into the Roil. You're looking at needing 10 sources of blue for a 75% chance of being able to play it kicked on T4 rather than the 5 sources that would be necessary for a full-value Repeal. Which means that Repeal is a better spell for decks using blue as a secondary color instead of a primary color.
Sorry, I can't agree with this conclusion. Although you need 2UU to get maximum value from Into the Roil, the fact that you have the option to forgo the kicker to bounce anything you need to for 1U gives Into the Roil flexibility that Repeal just doesn't have that can easily determine the outcome of a game. Being able to bounce a monster that's been reanimated or Tinkered into play during the first few turns is probably the most extreme example, but being able to bounce a 4-drop on turn 4 while holding up countermagic mana or developing your own board in a tempo deck is nothing to sneeze at and something else that Repeal can't do. Into the Roil can provide tempo and mana advantage in a lot of situations where Repeal just can't, and is even a dead card. I'd rather run Into the Roil or even Repulse than Repeal.
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I won't play Into the Roil in a deck that can't reliably hit UU. But I could play Repeal in that slot and still get full value.
I played Into the Roil over Repeal in my cube, for the reasons you mentioned. Because I support reanimation and fatty cheating effects, the 1U mode on ItR can randomly be clutch. But it was still limited to decks that can reliably hit 2UU (because playing it on the assumption it'll be in 2-mana mode all the time is awful) and in the average situation where it was cast, Repeal would've been better. Repeal can provide full value in more decks, has a much higher ceiling and will cost less mana on average for the same effect. But the one thing it can't do that Roil does can be important in certain situations.
hawkeye said that Repeal is "just bad", and I think that's completely false.
I played both Repeal and Into the Roil for quite some time and imho, Repeal is quite worse than Into the Roil. Even if it feels more flexible, it is not. With Repeal I found myself often trying to use it as fast as possible to get some tempo and draw a card. Into the Roil feels way less bad when keeping it in hand and waiting for the 4 mana to cantrip it or to use it for 2 mana when absolutely necessary. It reminds me of the Ancestral Vision VS Treasure Cruise discussion. Your results may be different because of power and a lower average cmc in your cube, but that doesn't change the fact that Repeal wants to be cast early, while Into the Roil just gives you the choice when to use it without the X-mana penalty and a smaller number of targets.
I also stand by my statement that double mana of a single color (even a secondary color) is not that difficult by the time you're at 4 sources. Usually double mana in costs concerns me most with cards that cost 2 or 3. Especially when we are talking about cards that must be cast on curve to get the value you need. If double blue mana should become an issue, I'll echo what the others said, just don't kick it, problem solved, and you still have mana open for that instant speed removal or whatever it may be unlike Repeal.
In general, I disagree with you. 2UU is way worse than 3U. If you play a 2color deck with 50/50 colored lands (only basics) and have 4 lands on the board, 2UU has only a ~64% chance to being castable compared to 3U's ~92% chance. Double mana gets irrelevant in the cmc5-6 region, but not in cmc4.
But in this scenario, the 2UU-drawback doesn't count. Into the Roil can just be played without kicking it and the drawback is gone for the cost of a card. It's not optimal, but it's castable.
I feel like people are forgetting how awesome it is to Repeal a token for U or a 1-drop from the aggro deck for 1U and DRAW A CARD. It helps in tempo, and it is especially awesome in control vs. aggro, as making it to the later phases of the game favors control greatly. What better way to get there than to bounce a creature cheaply AND draw a card? Obviously it isn't as good against fatties in a 'state of emergency', but the value of the 'early bounce' is a little understated in this discussion so far I think.
How many 5 drop black creatures should one be playing at 540?
I currently play Drana and Shriekmaw. I considered Sidisi, but if Drana lives for a turn she starts making a pretty significant impact on the board. She sees a lot of maindeck play in my group so I feel little need to cut her, and if I were to add a third 5-drop I think I'd add Gary. Not sure though.
I have only Tombstalker and Tasigur left to fill that section to some degree. But in the end, all three are not-always-5-drops. Drana, Bloodgift Demon and whatnot are just too unexciting... It's the unofficial child of green 6-drops.
Compared to the alternative Repeal isn't good. The number of times it will be better than Into the Roil is so few that it shouldn't be run unless your cube is large enough to run this in addition to the aforementioned card.
/disagree. I think the cards are WAY closer than you're suggesting they are.
Quote from hawkeye »
I also stand by my statement that double mana of a single color (even a secondary color) is not that difficult by the time you're at 4 sources.
The math suggests otherwise.
Quote from hawkeye »
If double blue mana should become an issue, I'll echo what the others said, just don't kick it, problem solved...
The card should only be played unkicked if it's an emergency. It's not a good 2cc spell.
But ultimately, it seems like your opinion is just this:
Surrak seems like the obvious choice to me, with the caveat that I have never played either in cube. But, in any creature deck, surrak being a 5/4 haste for 4 is probably going to be a pretty common occurrence (any elf plus pretty much any other creature), while giving every subsequent creature haste if your opponent doesn't have removal is huge. And even at his worst, sarkhan is not much worse than goliath as just a 5/4 without haste for 4, and in fact I think that him giving follow up creatures haste will be valuable more often than the scavenge on goliath.
How big is your cube? I wouldn't be thrilled with either tbh, but if I had to pick I'd choose colossus as I think, even with 1 less p/t, pro black and the pump is going to be relevant more than the scavenge.
I assume you're already running all the usual suspects for green creatures at 4 & 5? Do you have a link to your list somewhere? It would have to be a pretty big cube before I would consider either of these guys.
Also, I'm not sure where you guys get the stats on double mana of a given color by turn 4, but I haven't had problems with this. Maybe I'm just really lucky.
Ancestral Vision is good early, but bad late.
Treasure Cruise is bad early, but good late.
In the middle of the game, Cruise can at least imitate a Plea for Power, while Vision stays suspended as you die.
Cruise is better than I originally thought it was going to be, and Vision continued to be unimpressive, and was removed from my cube for the 3rd time.
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Do you mean anything between 0 and 3? Because if you're targeting a 3cc card, Repeal gets you a card for 3U instead of 2UU. So Into the Roil is better on 4+cc targets. And even the splashability of Repeal when targeting a 4-drop can be valuable.
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Really? I consider it a pretty big selling point. Especially for tempo decks where having blue as a second color is pretty common.
I consider them about equal, but in the cases where you need to bounce a high-cmc permanent early, you really need ItR. But I think Repeal is the stronger cube card on average.
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EDIT: Also, thoughts on Sidisi, Undead Vizier vs Silent Specter in a cube (there are morphs included, but the cube is too big to have an actual "morph theme")?
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With Ajani I think I would rather have Mirari's Wake at that cost, and not have to worry about it getting destroyed by my opponent's creatures
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TBH I'd rather still have WG Ajani but I'd also much rather have Sidisi than Silent Specter (I've actually been decently happy with Sidisi lately, but I may be biased as 5-mana in black is shallow right now.)
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I think you should run the math on mana demand if you don't think there's a significant difference between 3C and 2CC. The difference in required blue sources for Repeal is half that of a kicked Into the Roil. You're looking at needing 10 sources of blue for a 75% chance of being able to play it kicked on T4 rather than the 5 sources that would be necessary for a full-value Repeal. Which means that Repeal is a better spell for decks using blue as a secondary color instead of a primary color.
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Sorry, I can't agree with this conclusion. Although you need 2UU to get maximum value from Into the Roil, the fact that you have the option to forgo the kicker to bounce anything you need to for 1U gives Into the Roil flexibility that Repeal just doesn't have that can easily determine the outcome of a game. Being able to bounce a monster that's been reanimated or Tinkered into play during the first few turns is probably the most extreme example, but being able to bounce a 4-drop on turn 4 while holding up countermagic mana or developing your own board in a tempo deck is nothing to sneeze at and something else that Repeal can't do. Into the Roil can provide tempo and mana advantage in a lot of situations where Repeal just can't, and is even a dead card. I'd rather run Into the Roil or even Repulse than Repeal.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I played Into the Roil over Repeal in my cube, for the reasons you mentioned. Because I support reanimation and fatty cheating effects, the 1U mode on ItR can randomly be clutch. But it was still limited to decks that can reliably hit 2UU (because playing it on the assumption it'll be in 2-mana mode all the time is awful) and in the average situation where it was cast, Repeal would've been better. Repeal can provide full value in more decks, has a much higher ceiling and will cost less mana on average for the same effect. But the one thing it can't do that Roil does can be important in certain situations.
hawkeye said that Repeal is "just bad", and I think that's completely false.
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In general, I disagree with you. 2UU is way worse than 3U. If you play a 2color deck with 50/50 colored lands (only basics) and have 4 lands on the board, 2UU has only a ~64% chance to being castable compared to 3U's ~92% chance. Double mana gets irrelevant in the cmc5-6 region, but not in cmc4.
But in this scenario, the 2UU-drawback doesn't count. Into the Roil can just be played without kicking it and the drawback is gone for the cost of a card. It's not optimal, but it's castable.
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I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
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I currently play Drana and Shriekmaw. I considered Sidisi, but if Drana lives for a turn she starts making a pretty significant impact on the board. She sees a lot of maindeck play in my group so I feel little need to cut her, and if I were to add a third 5-drop I think I'd add Gary. Not sure though.
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The end.
I have only Tombstalker and Tasigur left to fill that section to some degree. But in the end, all three are not-always-5-drops. Drana, Bloodgift Demon and whatnot are just too unexciting... It's the unofficial child of green 6-drops.
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At one point I had Bloodgift Demon and Gray Merchant, but they got cut to lower my curve.
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/disagree. I think the cards are WAY closer than you're suggesting they are.
The math suggests otherwise.
The card should only be played unkicked if it's an emergency. It's not a good 2cc spell.
But ultimately, it seems like your opinion is just this:
and I don't think it's remotely accurate.
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Deadbridge barely ever gets scavenged. Thoughts?
So, for me, surrak hands down. He seems great.
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Deadbridge Goliath vs Chameleon Colossus.
I assume you're already running all the usual suspects for green creatures at 4 & 5? Do you have a link to your list somewhere? It would have to be a pretty big cube before I would consider either of these guys.
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