I've been debating returning Vorapede for a bit now but Genesis isn't cuttable for us in the least. He's just too good.
There are times where he's lackluster, but it's usually in the matchups where the rest of my deck is doing very well against my opponent (green midrange vs aggro). But I feel the effect is too unique and too important in the matchups where I really need it to shine (midrange vs control, grindy midrange mirrors) or when it's part of a combo with Sneak Attack or Survival or the like. Green has very few sources of repeatable CA that can win games that go long, and this guy does it from beyond the grave. He's slow, but in the cases where I need his ability to really shine, it doesn't matter much. He's at his best when the rest of my deck is struggling the most, and that's an important quality for cards to have.
I prefer Vorapede to Thornling and Genesis. I like its ruthless efficacy, and there are very few cards which are able to deal with it properly. It can attack and defend admirably all at once.
Thornling was never particularly good for us, and I would reinclude it as a 7 drop rather than a 5 drop; it's still behind Hornet Queen in that slot.
Genesis is a rarity as source of long-term CA for green, but that didn't mean that it wasn't too slow and costly. It was hanging on in the cube for quite a while on reputation alone, and it rarely got paired with the cards to abuse it. Drafting the whole cube at once would improve it, but we don't do that.
I am only currently running Vorapede of these at 360 and I don't feel that card is crucial, but I like to have two big straight-up beaters at 5 mana (the other being Kalonian Hydra). They get the job done most of the time as well as ramping to silly mana like 8 or 9 and playing a hyper expensive bomb, and form a much more reliable game plan. Those guys are part of the face of ramp decks at the moment so I'm happy to keep them in.
I currently play Vorapede, and he has a higher "I just win the game" then likely any other green creature. Certainly much higher than Hornet Queen, and fighting with Woodfall Primus for the top spot.
Thornling is a favorite 6 drop, and I am always looking for a slot to get him back in.
On to Genesis... he was bad, to put it frankly. I know he is a part of cube history and everyone loves him. But he is just too slow for us, and my cube is much lower powered than many of yours. I just don't get it - maybe with tons of fast mana you can get to 7+ mana quickly and start using his buyback, but around here a lot of the control decks just bounced him to hand or ignored him/his recursion, and the aggro decks only cared that he was a 4/4 for 5 - something they were ok with. He is cuttable. So cuttable that he has been out of my cube for months, not close to the green cards I want to get back in.
In short, I agree with Goodking: Vorapede is stronger then the other two.
I've always been somewhat shocked that Thornling and Genesis stayed in the conversation when cards like Vorapede, Kalonian Hydra and Wolfir Silverheart came along. They just attack for too much damage.
I would probably have Deranged Hermit (and Thelonite Hermit as well) in that category but we normally cube with Symbol Status over the Hermits. And SS is possibly the best green card.
I prefer Acidic Slime to Indrik Stomphowler, since it hits lands for extra combo value, doesn't kill your own stuff, and deals with creatures better. I would also cut Stomphowler for Wickerbough Elder if it isn't already in.
Also, I don't think Thelonite Hermit belongs anywhere near cube. It doesn't have an ETB trigger, so there's no way to abuse it. It's probably the most fair green creature you could ever play. It's also very slow. Deranged Hermit can do some really sick things, and this card does none of them.
Thragtusk is sweet value and helps protect against burn in a way that no other card does. It can pull you back from the brink, and it's a resilient attacker otherwise. Vorapede is like a Thragtusk with trample that's harder to cast (and weaker to exile and graveyard removal.) I really think Vorapede and Thornling are at the same powerlevel, but you don't need both.
Wolfir Silverheart is unparalleled power for 5 mana. It's not the best card in the world, but if you play aggressive green strategies, there's not much better to top your curve with. It competes with Swords of Left and Right in these decks though. Kalonian Hydra is slower, but comparable. You don't need to run both of these cards either, but they both have similar effects on the game. The Hydra is probably a little stronger, but with less immediate impact.
Genesis... If you've got the time and mana, this card is insane. There are some matchups where you have those resources and your opponent isn't prepared to deal with it. But that game is slowly becoming a thing of the past, and competition is stiff. It's becoming a strong sideboard card.
I actually love the green 5 slot, because it's one of the places where you can shuffle things around however you like and still have stuff that people want to draft.
how does kiki-jiki fit into cubes these days? I like the fact that he's like a repeatable metamorph with lots of side benefits... and a couple infinite combos at that.
how does kiki-jiki fit into cubes these days? I like the fact that he's like a repeatable metamorph with lots of side benefits... and a couple infinite combos at that.
There are a handful of infinite targets worth cubing if you wish to support Kiki-Jiki:
And if I'm not mistaken Kiora's Follower (BNG) works with him too as long as you do it after your opponent's beginning of the end step. (Seems terrible.)
I've seen him played without any infinite targets, just make sure you're supporting a lot of creatures that are good with Kiki-Jiki like Imperial Recruiter ($$$), Man-O-War, Huntmaster of the Fells, etc.
I don't think he fits in a cube smaller than 450 though unless you're not supporting red aggro as much as most cubes I've seen.
I view Kiki more as a pet card than an essential 5-drop in red. My group likes him because he's super fun to play with. He can vary from s/b fodder because of the three red in his cost to really amazing in a deck with lots of etb guys.
Well, the tailor-made responses usually have a higher relevance than the copy-pasting of a generic Genesis feature list would have. I highly appreciate your patience to type those answers!
The green five-drop discussion made me realize that I do in fact have some wiggle room in that spot, even though I did not feel that way before reading all the arguments people brought forward. It helped improve my understanding of why I do play the creatures I play and what could be reasons to play some of the creatures I don't play instead. In other words, it helped my understanding of Cube. Huge props to all who were involved in that discussion!
how does kiki-jiki fit into cubes these days? I like the fact that he's like a repeatable metamorph with lots of side benefits... and a couple infinite combos at that.
In the old days, it was one of two playable red five drops. Now, it is a great inclusion for what you might call the blink archetype: creatures with great ETB abilities and ways to repeatedly trigger them. And, as you say, it is a combo enabler for one of the easier to support Cube combo decks.
In the old days things were easy: need a second red five drop? Play Kiki-Jiki! Now you have to make a more complicated decision: does your playgroup enjoy playing with/against the Kiki-combos? Is a red heavy blink archetype a thing in your Cube? Can you make room for Kiki-Jiki without sacrificing a five drop you like even better (Thundermaw Hellkite, Zealous Conscripts, Siege-Gang Commander)?
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I'm trying out a Purphoros package, and I'd like Mogg War Marshal to be a part of it, so I need to make a cut. I have the following red two drops in my list:
I'm thinking either Kargan Dragonlord (too many red mana symbols) or Plated Geopede (aggro decks that want him are land-light, so he can sometimes be underpowered).
Also, I don't think Thelonite Hermit belongs anywhere near cube. It doesn't have an ETB trigger, so there's no way to abuse it. It's probably the most fair green creature you could ever play. It's also very slow. Deranged Hermit can do some really sick things, and this card does none of them.
Thelonite Hermit is in no way "the most fair green creature you could ever play". You are significantly underestimating how much of the value of either Hermit is the fact that they put 9 power and toughness into play on turn 5. Deranged's ability to be replayed or blinked (ie his "abusability") adds to his value but only because its base effect is so powerful.
Thelonite takes more time to set up than Deranged BUT if your squirrels aren't enough to keep you in the game you are in trouble since you won't be doing anything on turn 6 except pay echo. And if you don't pay his echo, 4 1/1s isn't the best consolation prize in the world.
I'm trying out a Purphoros package, and I'd like Mogg War Marshal to be a part of it, so I need to make a cut. I have the following red two drops in my list:
I'm thinking either Kargan Dragonlord (too many red mana symbols) or Plated Geopede (aggro decks that want him are land-light, so he can sometimes be underpowered).
Plated Geopede is super good and shouldn't be cut IMO. Dragonlord is eligible for the reason you suggested, and I'd suggest Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders for other options. They were both found a bit lightweight. Shrine was poor here too but other groups have had a lot of success with it.
I'm trying out a Purphoros package, and I'd like Mogg War Marshal to be a part of it, so I need to make a cut. I have the following red two drops in my list:
I'm thinking either Kargan Dragonlord (too many red mana symbols) or Plated Geopede (aggro decks that want him are land-light, so he can sometimes be underpowered).
I consider Kargan Dragonlord to be a midrange card, so it would be a logical cut. Other than that I would say Hellspark Elemental.
I just recently cut Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders as unless someone was drafting red aggro they just got passed over repeatedly. Replaced one of them with Dragonlord as it is a bit more flexible in that it still beats for 2 in an aggro deck but can also go big for a mana sink or in a midrange deck. This change happened at 360 to make room for some of the red graveyard orientated cards.
I also cut Plated Geopede months ago as I started to dislike the variance on landfall, replaced it with Stromblood Berserker who has been really good for us. This change was made when I was still at 450.
I also cut Plated Geopede months ago as I started to dislike the variance on landfall, replaced it with Stromblood Berserker who has been really good for us. This change was made when I was still at 450.
This was my thinking exactly. Stormblood Berserker has been a 3/3 for two with evasion nearly all the time, where Geopede is a lot less consistent. I'm also thinking about putting in Doomed Traveler for Steppe Lynx for similar reasons.
The problem I have with creatures like Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, but also Plated Geopede and Steppe Lynx, is that they do not let you develop a board presence. I found this to be an issue against other aggressive decks, especially white ones that pack some life gain.
I've found both Lynx and Geopede to be excellent creatures in the aggro mirror, because the first strike/3rd toughness allow them to attack through your opponent's freshly resolved blockers and keep you on the beatdown.
And Elemental/Marauders should be played as spells during deck construction, with the added bonus of being attacking creatures for all the times that it's relevant. If you're using them to build up a board presence, no wonder they've been disappointing. That's not what they're for. They're used in addition to the creature suite in your deck, as reach, added attackers, and cards that are basically burn spells with the added bonus of the creature subtype for things like Equipment, Anthems, Battle Cry, Recursion, Sac Outlets, etc. And Keldon Marauders is a fantastic creature in the aggro mirror. It resolves, stifles one of their attacking creatures for a turn (usually consuming their entire attack step for a turn), is big enough to attack through their blockers the turn after that, and usually adds up to 5 damage for 2 mana. My kind of burn spell creature.
I wouldnt cut steppe lynx, or Plated Geopede for that matter. In a recent draft I took my opponent down from 20-0 with a steppe lynx and a bonesplitter. A 2/3 for 1 is too good to cut imo. Just draft every fetch and terramorphic expanse you see.
I've found both Lynx and Geopede to be excellent creatures in the aggro mirror, because the first strike/3rd toughness allow them to attack through your opponent's freshly resolved blockers and keep you on the beatdown.
Yes, but if you are not the beatdown, they can in turn easily attack into your 0/1 and 1/1. So the deck forces a role on you that may not be appropriate for the match-up.
And Elemental/Marauders should be played as spells during deck construction, with the added bonus of being attacking creatures for all the times that it's relevant. If you're using them to build up a board presence, no wonder they've been disappointing. That's not what they're for. They're used in addition to the creature suite in your deck, as reach, added attackers, and cards that are basically burn spells with the added bonus of the creature subtype for things like Equipment, Anthems, Battle Cry, Recursion, Sac Outlets, etc. And Keldon Marauders is a fantastic creature in the aggro mirror. It resolves, stifles one of their attacking creatures for a turn (usually consuming their entire attack step for a turn), is big enough to attack through their blockers the turn after that, and usually adds up to 5 damage for 2 mana. My kind of burn spell creature.
I do like Marauders much more than Elemental because of this. Counting them as spells during deck construction is fine, I see them as player burn spells. I don't play those either because they are not flexible enough to adapt well enough to certain match-ups.
There are times where he's lackluster, but it's usually in the matchups where the rest of my deck is doing very well against my opponent (green midrange vs aggro). But I feel the effect is too unique and too important in the matchups where I really need it to shine (midrange vs control, grindy midrange mirrors) or when it's part of a combo with Sneak Attack or Survival or the like. Green has very few sources of repeatable CA that can win games that go long, and this guy does it from beyond the grave. He's slow, but in the cases where I need his ability to really shine, it doesn't matter much. He's at his best when the rest of my deck is struggling the most, and that's an important quality for cards to have.
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Agreed. Thornling should go before Vorapede
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Thornling was never particularly good for us, and I would reinclude it as a 7 drop rather than a 5 drop; it's still behind Hornet Queen in that slot.
Genesis is a rarity as source of long-term CA for green, but that didn't mean that it wasn't too slow and costly. It was hanging on in the cube for quite a while on reputation alone, and it rarely got paired with the cards to abuse it. Drafting the whole cube at once would improve it, but we don't do that.
I am only currently running Vorapede of these at 360 and I don't feel that card is crucial, but I like to have two big straight-up beaters at 5 mana (the other being Kalonian Hydra). They get the job done most of the time as well as ramping to silly mana like 8 or 9 and playing a hyper expensive bomb, and form a much more reliable game plan. Those guys are part of the face of ramp decks at the moment so I'm happy to keep them in.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Thornling is a favorite 6 drop, and I am always looking for a slot to get him back in.
On to Genesis... he was bad, to put it frankly. I know he is a part of cube history and everyone loves him. But he is just too slow for us, and my cube is much lower powered than many of yours. I just don't get it - maybe with tons of fast mana you can get to 7+ mana quickly and start using his buyback, but around here a lot of the control decks just bounced him to hand or ignored him/his recursion, and the aggro decks only cared that he was a 4/4 for 5 - something they were ok with. He is cuttable. So cuttable that he has been out of my cube for months, not close to the green cards I want to get back in.
In short, I agree with Goodking: Vorapede is stronger then the other two.
I would probably have Deranged Hermit (and Thelonite Hermit as well) in that category but we normally cube with Symbol Status over the Hermits. And SS is possibly the best green card.
Also, I don't think Thelonite Hermit belongs anywhere near cube. It doesn't have an ETB trigger, so there's no way to abuse it. It's probably the most fair green creature you could ever play. It's also very slow. Deranged Hermit can do some really sick things, and this card does none of them.
Thragtusk is sweet value and helps protect against burn in a way that no other card does. It can pull you back from the brink, and it's a resilient attacker otherwise. Vorapede is like a Thragtusk with trample that's harder to cast (and weaker to exile and graveyard removal.) I really think Vorapede and Thornling are at the same powerlevel, but you don't need both.
Wolfir Silverheart is unparalleled power for 5 mana. It's not the best card in the world, but if you play aggressive green strategies, there's not much better to top your curve with. It competes with Swords of Left and Right in these decks though. Kalonian Hydra is slower, but comparable. You don't need to run both of these cards either, but they both have similar effects on the game. The Hydra is probably a little stronger, but with less immediate impact.
Genesis... If you've got the time and mana, this card is insane. There are some matchups where you have those resources and your opponent isn't prepared to deal with it. But that game is slowly becoming a thing of the past, and competition is stiff. It's becoming a strong sideboard card.
I actually love the green 5 slot, because it's one of the places where you can shuffle things around however you like and still have stuff that people want to draft.
There are a handful of infinite targets worth cubing if you wish to support Kiki-Jiki:
And if I'm not mistaken Kiora's Follower (BNG) works with him too as long as you do it after your opponent's beginning of the end step. (Seems terrible.)
I've seen him played without any infinite targets, just make sure you're supporting a lot of creatures that are good with Kiki-Jiki like Imperial Recruiter ($$$), Man-O-War, Huntmaster of the Fells, etc.
I don't think he fits in a cube smaller than 450 though unless you're not supporting red aggro as much as most cubes I've seen.
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The green five-drop discussion made me realize that I do in fact have some wiggle room in that spot, even though I did not feel that way before reading all the arguments people brought forward. It helped improve my understanding of why I do play the creatures I play and what could be reasons to play some of the creatures I don't play instead. In other words, it helped my understanding of Cube. Huge props to all who were involved in that discussion!
In the old days, it was one of two playable red five drops. Now, it is a great inclusion for what you might call the blink archetype: creatures with great ETB abilities and ways to repeatedly trigger them. And, as you say, it is a combo enabler for one of the easier to support Cube combo decks.
In the old days things were easy: need a second red five drop? Play Kiki-Jiki! Now you have to make a more complicated decision: does your playgroup enjoy playing with/against the Kiki-combos? Is a red heavy blink archetype a thing in your Cube? Can you make room for Kiki-Jiki without sacrificing a five drop you like even better (Thundermaw Hellkite, Zealous Conscripts, Siege-Gang Commander)?
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I'm thinking either Kargan Dragonlord (too many red mana symbols) or Plated Geopede (aggro decks that want him are land-light, so he can sometimes be underpowered).
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Thelonite Hermit is in no way "the most fair green creature you could ever play". You are significantly underestimating how much of the value of either Hermit is the fact that they put 9 power and toughness into play on turn 5. Deranged's ability to be replayed or blinked (ie his "abusability") adds to his value but only because its base effect is so powerful.
Thelonite takes more time to set up than Deranged BUT if your squirrels aren't enough to keep you in the game you are in trouble since you won't be doing anything on turn 6 except pay echo. And if you don't pay his echo, 4 1/1s isn't the best consolation prize in the world.
Plated Geopede is super good and shouldn't be cut IMO. Dragonlord is eligible for the reason you suggested, and I'd suggest Hellspark Elemental and Keldon Marauders for other options. They were both found a bit lightweight. Shrine was poor here too but other groups have had a lot of success with it.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I consider Kargan Dragonlord to be a midrange card, so it would be a logical cut. Other than that I would say Hellspark Elemental.
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I also cut Plated Geopede months ago as I started to dislike the variance on landfall, replaced it with Stromblood Berserker who has been really good for us. This change was made when I was still at 450.
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This was my thinking exactly. Stormblood Berserker has been a 3/3 for two with evasion nearly all the time, where Geopede is a lot less consistent. I'm also thinking about putting in Doomed Traveler for Steppe Lynx for similar reasons.
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I would not cube without Geopede, Hellspark, or Berserker. Maybe w/o the Marauders, but I would need some pretty crazy new red aggro creature.
I think the only correct answer here is "All of the above!"
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And Elemental/Marauders should be played as spells during deck construction, with the added bonus of being attacking creatures for all the times that it's relevant. If you're using them to build up a board presence, no wonder they've been disappointing. That's not what they're for. They're used in addition to the creature suite in your deck, as reach, added attackers, and cards that are basically burn spells with the added bonus of the creature subtype for things like Equipment, Anthems, Battle Cry, Recursion, Sac Outlets, etc. And Keldon Marauders is a fantastic creature in the aggro mirror. It resolves, stifles one of their attacking creatures for a turn (usually consuming their entire attack step for a turn), is big enough to attack through their blockers the turn after that, and usually adds up to 5 damage for 2 mana. My kind of
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I do like Marauders much more than Elemental because of this. Counting them as spells during deck construction is fine, I see them as player burn spells. I don't play those either because they are not flexible enough to adapt well enough to certain match-ups.
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