Elspeth 2 first ability is really not relevant in aggro decks. In control decks, you don't run a lot of creeatures. It is used only in token strategies or after using the second ability.
Her second ability is an overcosted bad spectral procession. I'd rather play something else at 5cc in aggro in white. (baneslayer, cloudgoat ranger, or nothing at all).
Actually, Elspeth 2 sees plays in either control (tokens post wrath-like usually), in midrange-tokens deck eventually, or in build like Wildfire decks. Almost never in aggro decks.
Elspeth 1 is better in aggro : dropping a token after a wrath while you have anthem or equips, +3+3/fly. But it sees plays sometimes in midrange or even control, because it is almost never useless.
Elspeth 2 is hopeless for aggro but decent in everything else. It wasn't too hard to cut though ultimately when dropping below about 450.
Elspeth 2 wouldn't work for my cube because I don't have a lot of token generators. I only have cards like Sun Titan, Grave Titan, Precinct Captain, Call of the Herd and Mimic Vat. I'm not running Sorin in my multicolor section and I'm not running Spectral Procession either. I would think Gideon would be better than Elspeth 2.0. Gideon would work better in my cube.
Animate Dead vs. Necromancy vs. Recurring Nightmare. I was thinking of adding at least Recurring Nightmare or Necromancy in my cube. I already have Animate Dead in my cube. I was wondering what the power level is between the 3 cards. I know Recurring Nightmare is pretty broken. Would you ban him from your cube for being too powerful?
Nightmare is the best or second best black card for cube. It's pretty broken. I love that because I don't believe in banning cards for power level. It's not as wickedly unfair as Mind Twist, but it's still nuts. It's probably not powerful enough to ban for power-level reasons. I would run all three of these cards in every cube.
I wish more people ran Contract because, while it is unbelievably broken, I think it changes the dynamic of the color also.
I can't imagine that card being fun except for the guy who windmill slam first picks it. It's so much better than any other card ever printed it's ridiculous.
I wish more people ran Contract because, while it is unbelievably broken, I think it changes the dynamic of the color also.
Open question to people who play it: Do you just ignore the ante part? I played with it in cube once where we agreed to actually ante up the top card of your library (if you lost the match, you lost the card you anted for the rest of the draft). Not that it was any less hilariously broken with that, but I'm just curious.
Open question to people who play it: Do you just ignore the ante part? I played with it in cube once where we agreed to actually ante up the top card of your library (if you lost the match, you lost the card you anted for the rest of the draft). Not that it was any less hilariously broken with that, but I'm just curious.
We normally treat each match as self contained so that you get your card back after the match. You could do it the other way too though.
Treachery vs. Upheaval vs. Sower of Temptation. I was looking into putting Sower of Temptation or Treachery in my cube. I already have Upheaval in my cube. I currently have Mind Control where Treachery would be. I'm looking at Treachery and thinking it could be the best blue card that is under $10 besides maybe Upheaval. I guess people like Treachery so much because it untaps up to 5 lands when cast. If it didn't have that ability it would be like Mind Control and instead be an overcosted Control Magic.
I'd play all three - treachery, upheaval and sower. Eidolon is correct - it's basically a free spell and huge tempo. Being able to then counter a spell or cast another in the same turn is big deal.
Sower is also a great card, tho more fragile. It's also a tempo card since it's conditional on sower staying alive. Hopefully, while she's alive you're able to advance your board state.
Treachery vs. Upheaval vs. Sower of Temptation. I was looking into putting Sower of Temptation or Treachery in my cube. I already have Upheaval in my cube. I currently have Mind Control where Treachery would be. I'm looking at Treachery and thinking it could be the best blue card that is under $10 besides maybe Upheaval. I guess people like Treachery so much because it untaps up to 5 lands when cast. If it didn't have that ability it would be like Mind Control and instead be an overcosted Control Magic.
There is no reason to not run all three. Upheaval and Treachery are both among the 10 best blue cards and Sower is not far off that standard.
I'd play all three - treachery, upheaval and sower. Eidolon is correct - it's basically a free spell and huge tempo. Being able to then counter a spell or cast another in the same turn is big deal.
Sower is also a great card, tho more fragile. It's also a tempo card since it's conditional on sower staying alive. Hopefully, while she's alive you're able to advance your board state.
Treachery gets worse pretty much every set, Upheaval is controversial and not nearly the god card some make it out to be. Long run, I'd bet on Sower.
Yeah, would you mind explaining this? I would think that as the quality of creatures in the cube goes up (as it tends to with new sets), Treachery would actually get better, not worse.
As my cube has got more aggro focused, cards like Treachery are less good than when you could almost guarantee your opponent having a huge fatty to steal. There are also more cards that have good ETB effects that have already benefitted your opponent, leaving only a modest body to steal.
Treachery is still really good, though. All three of those blue cards are secure in my cube.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
As my cube has got more aggro focused, cards like Treachery are less good than when you could almost guarantee your opponent having a huge fatty to steal. There are also more cards that have good ETB effects that have already benefitted your opponent, leaving only a modest body to steal.
Treachery is still really good, though. All three of those blue cards are secure in my cube.
The first point is more about changing the structure of your cube than the impact of new sets; up to a certain point I'd still expect Treachery to get better as aggro cards get better (you're still stealing better cards), until aggro cards are so good that they are reliably killing you before you can actually cast Treachery.
I hadn't really thought about the second point, which is fair enough. Even then, though, a lot of finishers that have been added to cubes relatively recently (the titans, Consecrated Sphinx, Wurmcoil Engine, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, etc.) are still fine targets for Treachery.
As my cube has got more aggro focused, cards like Treachery are less good than when you could almost guarantee your opponent having a huge fatty to steal. There are also more cards that have good ETB effects that have already benefitted your opponent, leaving only a modest body to steal.
Treachery is still really good, though. All three of those blue cards are secure in my cube.
Taking the aggro creature from the aggro deck usually constitutes at least a 2-for-1 off of the treachery, that's extremely solid. On top of that you at least have the opportunity to keep your little guy protected. This situation still seems great for Treachery, especially since your opponent probably won't have more creatures in his deck that actually outclass the one you're taking.
re: upheaval (from another post): I agree with Der in that as long as your cube runs enough mana artifacts, upheaval is nuts, and honestly it doesn't take too much to support upheaval. "Restarting" the game with permanents on your side and none on your opponents is too strong of an effect to ignore when grading this card. I've rarely casted this card and remained behind; I'm not always put ahead, per se, but I'm at least given the opportunity to win again.
The first point is more about changing the structure of your cube than the impact of new sets; up to a certain point I'd still expect Treachery to get better as aggro cards get better (you're still stealing better cards), until aggro cards are so good that they are reliably killing you before you can actually cast Treachery.
This is wrong. The structure of Cubes is changing because we're seeing WAY better creatures these days which is putting downward pressure on mana costs and speeding up the format. All the sudden, the one mana difference between Treachery and Control Magic starts to be more important. If you don't believe me, go look at a TYPE 2 RDW deck and realize that you could basically draft it in Cube.
No, you're not guaranteed to be stealing "better" creatures in a sense that is appreciable (ok, Ash Zealot is better than whatever random 2 drop it replaced but..). That creature is coming into played tapped most likely since it attacked you and you just payed 5 mana to steal a cmc <=3 creature.
Sower gives you two bodies and is inarguably the better card for us
I hadn't really thought about the second point, which is fair enough. Even then, though, a lot of finishers that have been added to cubes relatively recently (the titans, Consecrated Sphinx, Wurmcoil Engine, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, etc.) are still fine targets for Treachery.
Yes, Cube has gotten good finishers but thats because they're printing better creatures generally. If you notice, those finishers aren't being added on to the old standbys they're *replacing* them and in many cases the overall number of finishers is dropping or staying level at best.
Sure, Treachery is great for stealing a fatty (unless it has shroud or protection or haste or whatnot) but that isn't going to happen in all of your matches. Is it even going to happen in the majority? Even if it is, look at the trends and you can see that things won't be that way for much longer.
I've rarely casted this card and remained behind; I'm not always put ahead, per se, but I'm at least given the opportunity to win again.
How is that even an endorsement? Apply that same sentence to any of the following cards and tell me if you'd would still cube them:
all Titans (except Primeval)
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Wurmcoil Engine
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan
Karn Liberated
the answer is NO because every one of those cards is better than your statement
KBH, get real Treachery is not becoming more and more outclassed. It is still a top level spell. What is happening is that cubes are becoming faster and that generally other cards are becoming slowly more powerful. Treachery is better in slower, more dragony cubes that is true.
All that being said for us Treachery is still one of the best blue cards and thus a very strong cube card. Is Control Magic better? Not for us, but Control Magic is not far behind anyway.
How is that even an endorsement? Apply that same sentence to any of the following cards and tell me if you'd would still cube them:
all Titans (except Primeval)
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Wurmcoil Engine
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan
Karn Liberated
the answer is NO because every one of those cards is better than your statement
There are plenty of times you can cast those cards and still end up losing the game the next X amount of turns (for sake of argument, we'll say X=1-3 turns, as we're talking about Upheaval as a last-ditch/saving effort) because of the position you are in. There are way less situations where I cast Upheaval and I have the possibility of dying on the next X amount of turns. Upheaval allows me to start over and can remove Y amount of their permanents via discarding, potentially draw into the answer/win condition I need, and if I'm fortunate enough to make it above 6 mana when I cast it I can reset my board while theirs is empty. I could cast one of those creatures/planeswalker and if it gets removed or they can just work around it with evasion or reach then I'm fairly F'd. The only real way you can remove an upheaval is a counter, which any of those guys can fall victim to as well. For a worst-case scenario on the card, that is a pretty amazing and high-up floor and absolutely an endorsement you have to consider when discussing upheaval.
Her second ability is an overcosted bad spectral procession. I'd rather play something else at 5cc in aggro in white. (baneslayer, cloudgoat ranger, or nothing at all).
Actually, Elspeth 2 sees plays in either control (tokens post wrath-like usually), in midrange-tokens deck eventually, or in build like Wildfire decks. Almost never in aggro decks.
Elspeth 1 is better in aggro : dropping a token after a wrath while you have anthem or equips, +3+3/fly. But it sees plays sometimes in midrange or even control, because it is almost never useless.
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Cheers,
rant
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In that order.
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I wish more people ran Contract because, while it is unbelievably broken, I think it changes the dynamic of the color also.
I can't imagine that card being fun except for the guy who windmill slam first picks it. It's so much better than any other card ever printed it's ridiculous.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Open question to people who play it: Do you just ignore the ante part? I played with it in cube once where we agreed to actually ante up the top card of your library (if you lost the match, you lost the card you anted for the rest of the draft). Not that it was any less hilariously broken with that, but I'm just curious.
We normally treat each match as self contained so that you get your card back after the match. You could do it the other way too though.
Sower is also a great card, tho more fragile. It's also a tempo card since it's conditional on sower staying alive. Hopefully, while she's alive you're able to advance your board state.
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There is no reason to not run all three. Upheaval and Treachery are both among the 10 best blue cards and Sower is not far off that standard.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
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Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Treachery gets worse pretty much every set, Upheaval is controversial and not nearly the god card some make it out to be. Long run, I'd bet on Sower.
Yeah, would you mind explaining this? I would think that as the quality of creatures in the cube goes up (as it tends to with new sets), Treachery would actually get better, not worse.
Treachery is still really good, though. All three of those blue cards are secure in my cube.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
The first point is more about changing the structure of your cube than the impact of new sets; up to a certain point I'd still expect Treachery to get better as aggro cards get better (you're still stealing better cards), until aggro cards are so good that they are reliably killing you before you can actually cast Treachery.
I hadn't really thought about the second point, which is fair enough. Even then, though, a lot of finishers that have been added to cubes relatively recently (the titans, Consecrated Sphinx, Wurmcoil Engine, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, etc.) are still fine targets for Treachery.
Taking the aggro creature from the aggro deck usually constitutes at least a 2-for-1 off of the treachery, that's extremely solid. On top of that you at least have the opportunity to keep your little guy protected. This situation still seems great for Treachery, especially since your opponent probably won't have more creatures in his deck that actually outclass the one you're taking.
re: upheaval (from another post): I agree with Der in that as long as your cube runs enough mana artifacts, upheaval is nuts, and honestly it doesn't take too much to support upheaval. "Restarting" the game with permanents on your side and none on your opponents is too strong of an effect to ignore when grading this card. I've rarely casted this card and remained behind; I'm not always put ahead, per se, but I'm at least given the opportunity to win again.
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My Heaval-sense went off...
-AA
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This is wrong. The structure of Cubes is changing because we're seeing WAY better creatures these days which is putting downward pressure on mana costs and speeding up the format. All the sudden, the one mana difference between Treachery and Control Magic starts to be more important. If you don't believe me, go look at a TYPE 2 RDW deck and realize that you could basically draft it in Cube.
No, you're not guaranteed to be stealing "better" creatures in a sense that is appreciable (ok, Ash Zealot is better than whatever random 2 drop it replaced but..). That creature is coming into played tapped most likely since it attacked you and you just payed 5 mana to steal a cmc <=3 creature.
Sower gives you two bodies and is inarguably the better card for us
Yes, Cube has gotten good finishers but thats because they're printing better creatures generally. If you notice, those finishers aren't being added on to the old standbys they're *replacing* them and in many cases the overall number of finishers is dropping or staying level at best.
Sure, Treachery is great for stealing a fatty (unless it has shroud or protection or haste or whatnot) but that isn't going to happen in all of your matches. Is it even going to happen in the majority? Even if it is, look at the trends and you can see that things won't be that way for much longer.
How is that even an endorsement? Apply that same sentence to any of the following cards and tell me if you'd would still cube them:
all Titans (except Primeval)
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Wurmcoil Engine
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan
Karn Liberated
the answer is NO because every one of those cards is better than your statement
All that being said for us Treachery is still one of the best blue cards and thus a very strong cube card. Is Control Magic better? Not for us, but Control Magic is not far behind anyway.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
There are plenty of times you can cast those cards and still end up losing the game the next X amount of turns (for sake of argument, we'll say X=1-3 turns, as we're talking about Upheaval as a last-ditch/saving effort) because of the position you are in. There are way less situations where I cast Upheaval and I have the possibility of dying on the next X amount of turns. Upheaval allows me to start over and can remove Y amount of their permanents via discarding, potentially draw into the answer/win condition I need, and if I'm fortunate enough to make it above 6 mana when I cast it I can reset my board while theirs is empty. I could cast one of those creatures/planeswalker and if it gets removed or they can just work around it with evasion or reach then I'm fairly F'd. The only real way you can remove an upheaval is a counter, which any of those guys can fall victim to as well. For a worst-case scenario on the card, that is a pretty amazing and high-up floor and absolutely an endorsement you have to consider when discussing upheaval.
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