I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Having played with the Great Henge and Renata, I'd say that the Henge will be the most universally useful card. Coincidentally, it plays very well with a more aggressively slanted green pattern using Mana Dorks and Midrange creatures - Imagine playing Questing Beast or similar beaters, enabling you to curve directly into the Henge while also giving you some insulation against a race (due to the lifegain) and turning topdecks of otherwise limited usefulness both into bigger threats and more gas. Frankly, that card is amazing.
Renata on the other hand is in purely for being an additional Persist enabler that I'll be happy to swap out as soon as a better one arrives. On the other hand, Renata is a creature, lending itself better to the Patterns of a Persist deck full of creature tutors and payoffs for creatures or sacrifice outlets.
In essence, The Great Henge can be used in Persist and is a generally very good card, whereas Renata is a more specific tool for a creature combo, which is even nicer since she herself is a creature. This last point brings me to why I'd never play Path of Discovery. It's not a creature and also a very unreliable part of the Combo since it can whiff - also, it does exactly nothing on its own, whereas the Henge ramps you and gains you life.
Thanks so much for this detailed response.
The short version of this is I felt Chord of Calling is what I'm looking for, not another +1/+1 enabler. Its great for tutoring up the missing part of the combo in not only the persist deck, but also Aristocrats, Heliod, Flicker, Kiki Twin etc
In addition, giving these creatures instant speed makes them incredibly lethal.
I play a Prossh Persist- Aristocrats - Food Chain deck and I found I have been tutoring for cards like Rankle, Grist, Reclamation Sage a lot more than the combo itself.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
The short version of this is I felt Chord of Calling is what I'm looking for, not another +1/+1 enabler. Its great for tutoring up the missing part of the combo in not only the persist deck, but also Aristocrats, Heliod, Flicker, Kiki Twin etc
In addition, giving these creatures instant speed makes them incredibly lethal.
I play a Prossh Persist- Aristocrats - Food Chain deck and I found I have been tutoring for cards like Rankle, Grist, Reclamation Sage a lot more than the combo itself.
That is a very interesting point you are making about low CMC creatures increasing in strength - this has been the exact reason for my recent inclusion of Collected Company and Chord of Calling seems very useful as well. The only reservation is of course GGG - it shouldn't be the greatest of issues, since creature-centric Combodecks are mostly base Green.
Triple Green hasn't been a problem at all - Convoke works with green creatures.
I find this answer depends heavily on the composition of your cube.
- Decay > Trophy if powered
- Vindicate/ Council's Judgement variants are always strong - its not something you can really do to compare with the previous two because they do slightly different roles
- Pernicious Deed is built for slower BG control style decks - its not a card for every BG deck like the previous 3.
They can all be "the best" in the right composition.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I find this answer depends heavily on the composition of your cube.
- Decay > Trophy if powered
- Vindicate/ Council's Judgement variants are always strong - its not something you can really do to compare with the previous two because they do slightly different roles
- Pernicious Deed is built for slower BG control style decks - its not a card for every BG deck like the previous 3.
They can all be "the best" in the right composition.
I'd cut Pulse from that group. Decay and Trophy are essentially the same, but cheaper. Plus it's super rare that you get the bonus blow up all your tokens mode on Pulse. You'd still have Deed for shenangians like that anyway.
Also, Kessig Prowler is a boss. The ability to sink mana into him to make him a hard hitting threat in the mid-game is so good for aggressive decks. I ended up cutting Wolfbitten Captive for Packleader because I couldn't convince my group to let me cut Wall of Blossoms.
I'd cut Pulse from that group. Decay and Trophy are essentially the same, but cheaper. Plus it's super rare that you get the bonus blow up all your tokens mode on Pulse. You'd still have Deed for shenangians like that anyway.
Also, Kessig Prowler is a boss. The ability to sink mana into him to make him a hard hitting threat in the mid-game is so good for aggressive decks. I ended up cutting Wolfbitten Captive for Packleader because I couldn't convince my group to let me cut Wall of Blossoms.
One nice thing with Deed was you go Wishclaw Talisman for Deed then blow everything up.
I opted for Maelstrom pulse because it was a card you can play in any Black-Green deck and even if you're wrong, you're not wrong by much. The same cannot be said about Deed.
In a vacuum, green aggro is good but I found that white often struggles with playables and the competition for red/green/black slots are very step. I've made the adjustment at one point where I shaved 1 drops from red/black and went up to 15-16 white 1 drops.
Hexdrinker is an exception cuse it is a midrange card and not just an aggressive card.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I been impressed by Grief, Fury and Solitude in Cube.
Endurance has completely over performed in legacy and I'm thinking at this point if I should just try the entire pitch cycle.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I been impressed by Grief, Fury and Solitude in Cube.
Endurance has completely over performed in legacy and I'm thinking at this point if I should just try the entire pitch cycle.
Endurance has overperformed my Cube expectations, but I still don’t like Subtlety. The stuff you have to cut for it is so much better - Consecrated Sphinx as an example of that.
Yeah, Endurance has been over-performing my expectations. Originally I pegged it as the worst in the cycle with Subtlety as #4, but now I have Subtlety at the bottom of the bunch. Subtletly still is a good card, but it's not as strong as other options at is function / cmc, IMO.
Consecrated Sphinx > Subtlety for me. Very different cards, but Consecrated Sphinx is better and more important in its role for me than Subtlety is.
I feel like Hole being able to hit Turn 1 for the person on the Draw as well as 'trade up' in a Powered Cube is stronger, but just wanted to get second opinions.
Griselbrand or Archon of Cruelty? For a reanimator/Sneak Attack piece, not running Persist/Unmarked Grave.
Seems a bit crazy to consider cutting griseldaddy, but Archon being immune to Karakas, working with Image/Metamorph and being less black intensive for Channel or whatever could be relevant upsides.
Griselbrand or Archon of Cruelty? For a reanimator/Sneak Attack piece, not running Persist/Unmarked Grave.
Seems a bit crazy to consider cutting griseldaddy, but Archon being immune to Karakas, working with Image/Metamorph and being less black intensive for Channel or whatever could be relevant upsides.
Griselbrand since its ceiling is still just stupid high and just explodes with Sneak Attack. Still, Archon of Cruelty is so good that it actually isn't a crazy consideration, IMO. I'd try to find room for both though, Archon of Cruelty has become a premium cheaty face target for us. Arguably has the best floor out of any of them and is strong in any scenario, and you're pretty much dead if it gets more than one attack in.
I would also suggest keeping both and finding a cut elsewhere, having more than one payoff card is important.
If you absolutely had to choose one or the other, I feel Archon you at least get value from the ETB trigger and would pick that, even though Griseldaddy has the higher ceiling.
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I support Melira, Aristocrats, Flicker, and Green ramp.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
[180 classic cube]
Thanks!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Thanks so much for this detailed response.
The short version of this is I felt Chord of Calling is what I'm looking for, not another +1/+1 enabler. Its great for tutoring up the missing part of the combo in not only the persist deck, but also Aristocrats, Heliod, Flicker, Kiki Twin etc
The interesting part is 2-4 CMC creatures have gotten so good that Chord scaled up significantly in power level - Grist, the Hunger Tide, Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger, Brutal Cathar, Hullbreacher, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, Palace Jailer, Prime Speaker Vannifar, Rankle, Master of Pranks.
In addition, giving these creatures instant speed makes them incredibly lethal.
I play a Prossh Persist- Aristocrats - Food Chain deck and I found I have been tutoring for cards like Rankle, Grist, Reclamation Sage a lot more than the combo itself.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
That is a very interesting point you are making about low CMC creatures increasing in strength - this has been the exact reason for my recent inclusion of Collected Company and Chord of Calling seems very useful as well. The only reservation is of course GGG - it shouldn't be the greatest of issues, since creature-centric Combodecks are mostly base Green.
Thanks. That was my feeling but a couple folks in my playgroup argued to cut Prowler.
Next up: Golgari removal spells:
Rank these for me please:
Thanks!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
I find this answer depends heavily on the composition of your cube.
- Decay > Trophy if powered
- Vindicate/ Council's Judgement variants are always strong - its not something you can really do to compare with the previous two because they do slightly different roles
- Pernicious Deed is built for slower BG control style decks - its not a card for every BG deck like the previous 3.
They can all be "the best" in the right composition.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
/\ /\ /\ This.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Also, Kessig Prowler is a boss. The ability to sink mana into him to make him a hard hitting threat in the mid-game is so good for aggressive decks. I ended up cutting Wolfbitten Captive for Packleader because I couldn't convince my group to let me cut Wall of Blossoms.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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One nice thing with Deed was you go Wishclaw Talisman for Deed then blow everything up.
I opted for Maelstrom pulse because it was a card you can play in any Black-Green deck and even if you're wrong, you're not wrong by much. The same cannot be said about Deed.
In a vacuum, green aggro is good but I found that white often struggles with playables and the competition for red/green/black slots are very step. I've made the adjustment at one point where I shaved 1 drops from red/black and went up to 15-16 white 1 drops.
Hexdrinker is an exception cuse it is a midrange card and not just an aggressive card.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
[180 classic cube]
Fact or Fiction
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
I been impressed by Grief, Fury and Solitude in Cube.
Endurance has completely over performed in legacy and I'm thinking at this point if I should just try the entire pitch cycle.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Endurance has overperformed my Cube expectations, but I still don’t like Subtlety. The stuff you have to cut for it is so much better - Consecrated Sphinx as an example of that.
Consecrated Sphinx > Subtlety for me. Very different cards, but Consecrated Sphinx is better and more important in its role for me than Subtlety is.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Portable Hole or Journey to Nowhere?
I feel like Hole being able to hit Turn 1 for the person on the Draw as well as 'trade up' in a Powered Cube is stronger, but just wanted to get second opinions.
Also need to make a cut for Adeline, Resplendent Cathar and am leaning towards Spectral Procession. Not as many bodies on turn 1 but Adeline snowballs.
I also support the Adeline > Procession swap.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Seems a bit crazy to consider cutting griseldaddy, but Archon being immune to Karakas, working with Image/Metamorph and being less black intensive for Channel or whatever could be relevant upsides.
Griselbrand since its ceiling is still just stupid high and just explodes with Sneak Attack. Still, Archon of Cruelty is so good that it actually isn't a crazy consideration, IMO. I'd try to find room for both though, Archon of Cruelty has become a premium cheaty face target for us. Arguably has the best floor out of any of them and is strong in any scenario, and you're pretty much dead if it gets more than one attack in.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
If you absolutely had to choose one or the other, I feel Archon you at least get value from the ETB trigger and would pick that, even though Griseldaddy has the higher ceiling.