I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Yeah, Torbran is a turnoff when any Hellrider effect basically do what it wants to do. Emberwilde Captain is more ideal for midrange decks than it is for aggro.
What is “any Hellrider effect?” You’re right that Hellrider is awesome and the best red aggro 4-drop, but we’ve found Torbran to be the next best thing, and there’s nothing else particularly similar. In mono red it’s actually better than Hellrider in some deck configurations because of the burn spell synergies.
It does require you to specifically promote and support mono red which we now do with cards like Chainwhirler and Torbran. We made a decision recently to reward the mono white and mono red decks a bit more instead of pushing people into Boros. Boros has its own rewards, but the goal is to actively support all three decks.
I missed some of the discussion that happened a few days ago that touched on Aetherling - surprised people seem so down on it. In my 540 powered I only have room for two blue 6 drops at the moment, and I went with Aetherling and Consecrated Sphinx. I am not currently running Gearhulk... although I did at some point in the past.
In general, do people like Gearhulk better than Aetherling these days? I must say after reading these comments on Aetherling I am tempted to switch back. I like the fact that Gearhulk is an artifact which helps the artifact decks and also that it's value comes in the form of an etb - we've had a lot of good blink enablers lately like the new Thassa and it could be fun to add some support on the top end there.
Any 4-drop with haste and significant damage output: Hellrider / Koth of the Hammer / Hero of Oxid Ridge / Hazoret the Fervent / Falkenrath Aristocrat / Fleetwheel Cruiser / etc.
My two issues with Torbran it can't be explosive on its own due to the lack of haste and the fact that it's more narrow by only benefitting extremely heavy red decks.
We made a decision recently to reward the mono white and mono red decks a bit more instead of pushing people into Boros. Boros has its own rewards, but the goal is to actively support all three decks.
Personally I think going mono colored is its own reward, especially for aggro. Goblin Chainwhirler / Torbran aren't any better than other similar options at their respective cmcs. Things like Natural Order / Vedalken Shackles / Cryptic Command encourage you to be heavily invested in said color, but it doesn't have to be your only color. The difference between those cards and things like Goblin Chainwhirler / Torbran is that the former don't have cards that are as good or better than them at what they do / support at their respective cmcs.
I totally hear you on the red-intensiveness, and we’re on the fence on Chainwhirler (although it’s awesome against green and white), but I’d push back on the red aggro 4-drop comparisons. There is a wide chasm between Hellrider and Fleetwheel Cruiser, and I don’t think I’d call a card like that a “Hellrider effect” in the same way Torbran is. My recommendation of Torbran comes from our experience that it is several tiers more powerful than options like Fleetwheel Cruiser and is busted with Rabble variants, burn spells, and really most cards in red aggro decks.
At the end of the day if you don’t want to push mono red aggro that much, then certainly don’t even test the card. But if mono red aggro is consistently one of the decks drafted I personally feel like Torbran pushes you in and is a big signal when you see. That’s my hot take recommendation to at least test a card that wasn’t on my radar until I saw it in action in the Arena Cube.
I missed some of the discussion that happened a few days ago that touched oj Aetherling - surprised people seem so down on it. In my 540 powered I only have room for two blue 6 drops at the moment, and I went with Aetherling and Consecrated Sphinx. I am not currently running Gearhulk... although I did at sone point in the past.
In general, do people like Gearhulk better than Aetherling these days? I must say after reading these comments on Aetherling I am tempted to switch back. I like the fact that Gearhulk is an artifact which helps the artifact decks and also that it's value comes in the form of an etb - we've had a lot of good blink enablers lately like the new Thassa and it could be fun to add some support on the top end there.
I continue to run Aetherling because it's a really hard to handle finisher. It has the resiliency and inevitability UX control decks want in a finisher. I have no plans to cut it from my 465 card Powered cube.
Gearhulk is awesome but it is easy to deal with once on the board. I also found the limitation of only hitting an instant to be cumbersome on occasion. It has more of the qualities of a utility creature than a finisher and 6 mana is usually more than I want to pay for utility. That said, I've considered running it often and I might give it another go sometime. That would be in addition to Aetherling and Sphinx and not instead of one of them.
I also found the limitation of only hitting an instant to be cumbersome on occasion.
I actually completely forgot about that myself, having not played with the card in a year and a half or so... I was definitely picturing it as instant or sorcery in my mind. That is a tad unfortunate even if you will mostly be wanting to cast instants with it.
I find that the instant limitation on Gearhulk is very limiting in practice. Many decks do not have the instant density to run it.
Aetherling is exceptional in control mirrors. I found it also narrow, and too slow against midrange decks. It is the best inevitability tool, but most control decks have enough ways to win the game with utility bodies and planeswalkers, so it is not a necessary piece as I once found it to be.
I prefer Siege-Gang Commander. In the right builds, it has an insanely high ceiling and is quite abusable. In addition to having a very solid baseline and non-combat reach.
We cubed Glorybringer for a bit but ultimately weren't that happy with him. We cut him and haven't looked back - especially now that Ilharg, the Raze-Boar has been printed.
Siege-Gang just does more stuff, at least in our cube. One removal spell takes out the whole Glorybringer - not true for Siege-Gang. It also plays great with all sorts of other archetype cards - Purphoros, God of the Forge/Impact Tremors effects, Alesha, Who Smiles at Death/Reveillark style power-based reanimation, Grumgully, the Generous-style cards that reward creatures etb-ing with counters, etc, etc. The list goes on. Its really hard to find things that it DOESN'T have some great synergy with, which is just not true for Glorybringer.
I guess that means the floor might be a bit higher for Glorybringer but the ceiling is way lower... and I am not even sure if I agree with that statement myself, as the floor for Siege-Gang is still quite high.
Just for fun, There was a video of LSV and Gaby drafting a storm deck that generated infinite mana with Palinchron, but they failed to pick up a win-con.
Their last two picks of the draft were Corpse Dance and Siege-Gang Commander making their win con: Generate infinite mana with Palinchron, then Corpse Dance the Siege-Gang 10 times.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Just for fun, There was a video of LSV and Gaby drafting a storm deck that generated infinite mana with Palinchron, but they failed to pick up a win-con.
Their last two picks of the draft were Corpse Dance and Siege-Gang Commander making their win con: Generate infinite mana with Palinchron, then Corpse Dance the Siege-Gang 10 times.
if i had to choose one of nature's claim, beast within, wilt?
if i would like to support monogreen which one i should choose?
side note, is nissa, voice of zendikar any good? where would be useful? a couple of times played her didn't seem any strong?
Nissa isn't a blow out planeswalker - she's decent in Opposition, Skullclamp, Smokestack, Gaea's Cradle decks. She's one of the few anthem effects playable in cube. She's a nice enabler for a lot of payoff cards.
If you read Nissa's SCD, you can see that some of the opinions is she's not that strong by herself and needs a one of these creature shells to work. (Which is pretty much any deck that can a 3 mana, double grene spell).
Wilt is pretty good - it gets better in a powered cube. I'm currently testing - Beast Within this is pretty good in green decks that lack answers. If you're looking to support green aggro/ midrange in powered cubes, Wilt/ Claim is not the way to go against the fast mana. I find you need cards like Collector Ouphe or Reclamation Sage (there are several Reclamation Sage variants)
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Nissa isn't a blow out planeswalker - she's decent in Opposition, Skullclamp, Smokestack, Gaea's Cradle decks. She's one of the few anthem effects playable in cube. She's a nice enabler for a lot of payoff cards.
If you read Nissa's SCD, you can see that some of the opinions is she's not that strong by herself and needs a one of these creature shells to work. (Which is pretty much any deck that can a 3 mana, double grene spell).
Wilt is pretty good - it gets better in a powered cube. I'm currently testing - Beast Within this is pretty good in green decks that lack answers. If you're looking to support green aggro/ midrange in powered cubes, Wilt/ Claim is not the way to go against the fast mana. I find you need cards like Collector Ouphe or Reclamation Sage (there are several Reclamation Sage variants)
Thank you very much for the great explanation!! I am always after engine cards, and as you describe it she is nice to have her anthem and the other synergies presentation in my cube.
It looks like a very tight list - very hard to make a cut. The card I'm least excited about is prob Wall of Blossoms.
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I'm a bit late on this but why Deliberate over Omen of the Sea? Isn't Omen of the Sea more often than not just Deliberate with additional upside? I mean if your cube goes deep on spells matter I could see Deliberate getting the nod, but otherwise I'd go Omen.
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Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
It does require you to specifically promote and support mono red which we now do with cards like Chainwhirler and Torbran. We made a decision recently to reward the mono white and mono red decks a bit more instead of pushing people into Boros. Boros has its own rewards, but the goal is to actively support all three decks.
2 - Deliberate vs Omen of the Sea vs Scour All Possibilities ? In void
3 - Shredded Sails vs Irreverent Revelers ?
4 - Disdainful Stroke vs Negate ?
Deliberate > Omen > Scour
Sails > Revelers
Negate > Stroke
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
In general, do people like Gearhulk better than Aetherling these days? I must say after reading these comments on Aetherling I am tempted to switch back. I like the fact that Gearhulk is an artifact which helps the artifact decks and also that it's value comes in the form of an etb - we've had a lot of good blink enablers lately like the new Thassa and it could be fun to add some support on the top end there.
My 36+ Commander Decks: TAPPEDOUT
Any 4-drop with haste and significant damage output: Hellrider / Koth of the Hammer / Hero of Oxid Ridge / Hazoret the Fervent / Falkenrath Aristocrat / Fleetwheel Cruiser / etc.
My two issues with Torbran it can't be explosive on its own due to the lack of haste and the fact that it's more narrow by only benefitting extremely heavy red decks.
Personally I think going mono colored is its own reward, especially for aggro. Goblin Chainwhirler / Torbran aren't any better than other similar options at their respective cmcs. Things like Natural Order / Vedalken Shackles / Cryptic Command encourage you to be heavily invested in said color, but it doesn't have to be your only color. The difference between those cards and things like Goblin Chainwhirler / Torbran is that the former don't have cards that are as good or better than them at what they do / support at their respective cmcs.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
At the end of the day if you don’t want to push mono red aggro that much, then certainly don’t even test the card. But if mono red aggro is consistently one of the decks drafted I personally feel like Torbran pushes you in and is a big signal when you see. That’s my hot take recommendation to at least test a card that wasn’t on my radar until I saw it in action in the Arena Cube.
I continue to run Aetherling because it's a really hard to handle finisher. It has the resiliency and inevitability UX control decks want in a finisher. I have no plans to cut it from my 465 card Powered cube.
Gearhulk is awesome but it is easy to deal with once on the board. I also found the limitation of only hitting an instant to be cumbersome on occasion. It has more of the qualities of a utility creature than a finisher and 6 mana is usually more than I want to pay for utility. That said, I've considered running it often and I might give it another go sometime. That would be in addition to Aetherling and Sphinx and not instead of one of them.
Cheers,
rant
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I actually completely forgot about that myself, having not played with the card in a year and a half or so... I was definitely picturing it as instant or sorcery in my mind. That is a tad unfortunate even if you will mostly be wanting to cast instants with it.
Thanks for the detailed breakdown/explanation!
My 36+ Commander Decks: TAPPEDOUT
Aetherling is exceptional in control mirrors. I found it also narrow, and too slow against midrange decks. It is the best inevitability tool, but most control decks have enough ways to win the game with utility bodies and planeswalkers, so it is not a necessary piece as I once found it to be.
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Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Siege-Gang just does more stuff, at least in our cube. One removal spell takes out the whole Glorybringer - not true for Siege-Gang. It also plays great with all sorts of other archetype cards - Purphoros, God of the Forge/Impact Tremors effects, Alesha, Who Smiles at Death/Reveillark style power-based reanimation, Grumgully, the Generous-style cards that reward creatures etb-ing with counters, etc, etc. The list goes on. Its really hard to find things that it DOESN'T have some great synergy with, which is just not true for Glorybringer.
I guess that means the floor might be a bit higher for Glorybringer but the ceiling is way lower... and I am not even sure if I agree with that statement myself, as the floor for Siege-Gang is still quite high.
My 36+ Commander Decks: TAPPEDOUT
Their last two picks of the draft were Corpse Dance and Siege-Gang Commander making their win con: Generate infinite mana with Palinchron, then Corpse Dance the Siege-Gang 10 times.
https://twitter.com/gabyspartz/status/947895090575486976?lang=en
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
This is amazing. Cube is the best.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
if i would like to support monogreen which one i should choose?
side note, is nissa, voice of zendikar any good? where would be useful? a couple of times played her didn't seem any strong?
If you read Nissa's SCD, you can see that some of the opinions is she's not that strong by herself and needs a one of these creature shells to work. (Which is pretty much any deck that can a 3 mana, double grene spell).
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/652920-ogw-cube-nissa-voice-of-zendikar?page=4
Wilt is pretty good - it gets better in a powered cube. I'm currently testing - Beast Within this is pretty good in green decks that lack answers. If you're looking to support green aggro/ midrange in powered cubes, Wilt/ Claim is not the way to go against the fast mana. I find you need cards like Collector Ouphe or Reclamation Sage (there are several Reclamation Sage variants)
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
3cc Nissa is a great card in token shells, go-wide decks or anything looking for sacrifice fodder.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Thank you very much for the great explanation!! I am always after engine cards, and as you describe it she is nice to have her anthem and the other synergies presentation in my cube.
at my list, what i could remove to add wilt or beast within? https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/gkourk
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Thanks wtw! I now shall find something to cut..