3. Earthshaker Giant > Vorinclex - but this is incredibly meta dependent. I need to wait to see if Vorinclex forms an infinite combo with someone to comment further.
EDIT:
This person has made a very good summary for Vorinclex. I didn't realize it effected Planeswalkers. Without much testing, a 6 mana 6/6 haste aren't the worst stats. From experience, it will be difficult for decks to take advantage of both his stats and his ability.
For this reason, I'm not that interested in Earthshaker. Similarly, his stats aren't good enough for a reanimation target. (Not that Decimator or End-Raze are much better, but they are borderline good enough as a reanimation target)
4. Rampaging is better in Mono Red aggro (menace is pretty strong), Alesha is stronger in Aristocrats. Its depends on what you want to support.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I think Brazen Borrower and Hullbreacher are both deserving of spots at 360powered. I play all 5 of the creatures you mentioned at 360 powered. You could manage your spreadsheet aesthetics into putting the Brazen Borrower as a 1U blue instant rather than a blue creature. There are probably other cuts in blue you could manage as well.
I agree with your top 5 CMC3 creatures, though I'm not sure exactly where spellseeker would rank, as I play an unpowered cube myself.
What would you run in these three spots? Have we reached the point the 360 card cubes are too small?
Only three CMC3 creatures? I know that blue is the color with the fewest creatures, but that sounds low to me. Especially if you count Thieving Skydiver as a CMC3, which in reality has a flexible CMC. I think the creatures you refer to here are all pretty darn stellar, and so would definitely try to find room for more than three of them. If you link your cube, I'm sure I would find some other cards in blue I would much rather cut.
If I had to pick 3 of the 5, it is a bit tricky, because they all fill slightly different roles, and so I would want to look at the whole cube. However, Clique is definitely the best by far in my opinion. Best blue creature of them all.
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I am impressed by your cube. Mine is trending in the direction that your cube has gone. I am just having a hard time cutting back on cards/archetypes I have enjoyed since the late 90's. To fit in more 3 CMC creatures in blue I need to cut away at the top end of the curve. Aetherling could be cut as control decks don't have to have much in the way of wincons.
I am open to critiques and ideas. 2020 has been a year with more theory crafting than playtesting. I am loosing the "feel" of how the cube plays with the changes made this year.
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
I don't think Aetherling is remotely necessary as a control finisher. I cut it in my 465 forever ago. In your cube Sphinx and Gearhulk are perfectly capable of finishing games, not to mention the various U walkers, and mono-U isn't that common in my experience that you need to assume blue will have a hard time dipping into other colors for finishers.
I agree - you also seem to be running a lot of blue 4s for 360. I think the “top 5” blue 3s listed in this thread are all better than Whirler Rogue, for example. Thieving Skydiver and Brazen Borrower also don’t play exactly like 3-drops.
I like Hullbreacher more than both Time Spiral and Whirler Rogue at 360. I'd personally add Narset, Parter of Veils and Hullbreacher over those two, since adding them together allows for some redundancy on that kind of effect.
For myself, I think Narset, True-Name Nemesis and Thieving Skydiver should count as 3 Drops.
Hullbreacher, Vendilion Clique, Pestermite, Deciever Exarch etc. should be considered blue instant and I would cut any 3 CMC instant - Forbid comes to mind.
I would not count Brazen Borrower as 3 drop - just like how Snapcaster mage and Sea Gate Stormcaller aren't really 2 drops themselves.
Do you think you need time spiral if you arent running storm?
Time Spiral also has a lot of combo potential with Narset (Draw-Denial) and Tolarian Academy/ Mana Doublers (Idk how many of these are played in non-storm cubes. Non-storm cubes should still have some of those.
Time Spiral is incredibly strong regardless of storm or not - its a very good finisher for ramp decks.
I don't think Aetherling is remotely necessary as a control finisher. I cut it in my 465 forever ago. In your cube Sphinx and Gearhulk are perfectly capable of finishing games, not to mention the various U walkers, and mono-U isn't that common in my experience that you need to assume blue will have a hard time dipping into other colors for finishers.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I like Hullbreacher more than both Time Spiral and Whirler Rogue at 360. I'd personally add Narset, Parter of Veils and Hullbreacher over those two, since adding them together allows for some redundancy on that kind of effect.
These small powerful cubes are having a hard time with colors becoming unidimensional - only doing the thing they are very best at. For example, I have seen several 360 powered lists that end up cutting everything that isn't hyperaggresive and burn from red because it is the best the most streamlined thing to do. No more Goblin Welder package, Wildfire package, Purphorous, God of the Forge package.
I like Hullbreacher more than both Time Spiral and Whirler Rogue at 360. I'd personally add Narset, Parter of Veils and Hullbreacher over those two, since adding them together allows for some redundancy on that kind of effect.
These small powerful cubes are having a hard time with colors becoming unidimensional - only doing the thing they are very best at. For example, I have seen several 360 powered lists that end up cutting everything that isn't hyperaggresive and burn from red because it is the best the most streamlined thing to do. No more Goblin Welder package, Wildfire package, Purphorous, God of the Forge package.
It's possible that Time Spiral isn't the right cut, but at 630, the only symmetrical draw 7 I run is Wheel of Fortune. There's been enough other card draw that they're able to interact with that isn't specifically forcing your opponent to discard their hand that the effect still plays well (77/630 cards in my cube, which is ~12%, draw at least one extra card in some fashion).
These small powerful cubes are having a hard time with colors becoming unidimensional - only doing the thing they are very best at. For example, I have seen several 360 powered lists that end up cutting everything that isn't hyperaggresive and burn from red because it is the best the most streamlined thing to do. No more Goblin Welder package, Wildfire package, Purphorous, God of the Forge package.
This is the exact reason why I feel the cube size should grow slightly with every new set. New cards are too streamlined and too efficient where I've seen discussions for cutting cards like Mulldrifter, Mirari's Wake, Eternal Witness because they're too slow and don't support one of the hyper stream lined archetypes such as ramp, artifact, aggro or combo decks.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
at 360 i dont think you need 3 draw sevens. you are better to have two enablers like hull breacher and narset and 2 draw sevens, than 3 draw sevens and only narset as an combo enabler, similar to how twin has pestermite and exarch and twin and kiki. by having a balance of the needed effects it makes it easier to draft and more consistent. Besides, Hullbreacher is way more than just a draw 7 combo piece as well since it completely hoses all your opponents draw.
When looking specifically at the draw 7 combo, I feel that Time twister is much better than time spiral as there are far more opportunities to actually cast it being half the mana. similar to how waiting to cast kiki when you could be casting twin feels bad when you are on that combo.
Torbran was one of my biggest surprises of last year. I learned about it in the Arena Cube, and it’s been awesome mono red aggro support. I recommend at least testing that card.
Torbran was one of my biggest surprises of last year. I learned about it in the Arena Cube, and it’s been awesome mono red aggro support. I recommend at least testing that card.
Torbran has been wrecking house since we included it, so I can only agree with this.
Halvar, God of Battle > Maul of the Skyclaves
Anguished Unmaking > Kaya the Inexoerable
Beanstalk Giant > Rampant Growth
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
2 - Flame Slash vs Stoke the Flames vs Wild Slash? What order ?
3 - Earthshaker Giant vs Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider (KHM leak)?
4 - Alesha, Who Smiles at Death vs Rampaging Ferocidon vs Arni Brokenbrow (KHM leak)? What order ?
1. Narset > Jace Belern > Jace Mirror
2. Flame Slash > Stoke the Flames.
3. Earthshaker Giant > Vorinclex - but this is incredibly meta dependent. I need to wait to see if Vorinclex forms an infinite combo with someone to comment further.
EDIT:
This person has made a very good summary for Vorinclex. I didn't realize it effected Planeswalkers. Without much testing, a 6 mana 6/6 haste aren't the worst stats. From experience, it will be difficult for decks to take advantage of both his stats and his ability.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/cube-new-card-discussion/819823-khm-cube-vorinclex-monstrous-raider#c1
For Earthshaker, it is unlikely his overrun ability with be game finishing - this is not Decimator of the Provinces, or Craterhoof Behemoth or End-Raze Forerunners that have haste themselves and could easily push for lethal.
For this reason, I'm not that interested in Earthshaker. Similarly, his stats aren't good enough for a reanimation target. (Not that Decimator or End-Raze are much better, but they are borderline good enough as a reanimation target)
4. Rampaging is better in Mono Red aggro (menace is pretty strong), Alesha is stronger in Aristocrats. Its depends on what you want to support.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Casualties of War vs Vraska, Relic Seeker?
I'm thinking cut Vraska, Golgari Queen or even Pernicious Deed for this
Good suggestions. Vraska, Golgari Queen has always been quite good for us, but I do think Casualties of War is likely better than Pernicious Deed.
I am currently running: Thieving Skydiver (counting it as a 3 drop), True-Name Nemesis, and Vendilion Clique.
I have interest in Brazen Borrower, and Hullbreacher.
Other cards I find interesting, but ultimately rejected/cut are: Nadir Kraken, Man-o'-war, Barrin, Tolarian Archmage, Arcane Artisan, Mist-Syndicate Naga, Serendib Efreet, Spellseeker, Glasspool Mimic, and Nimble Obstructionist.
What would you run in these three spots? Have we reached the point the 360 card cubes are too small?
I agree with your top 5 CMC3 creatures, though I'm not sure exactly where spellseeker would rank, as I play an unpowered cube myself.
Only three CMC3 creatures? I know that blue is the color with the fewest creatures, but that sounds low to me. Especially if you count Thieving Skydiver as a CMC3, which in reality has a flexible CMC. I think the creatures you refer to here are all pretty darn stellar, and so would definitely try to find room for more than three of them. If you link your cube, I'm sure I would find some other cards in blue I would much rather cut.
If I had to pick 3 of the 5, it is a bit tricky, because they all fill slightly different roles, and so I would want to look at the whole cube. However, Clique is definitely the best by far in my opinion. Best blue creature of them all.
I am impressed by your cube. Mine is trending in the direction that your cube has gone. I am just having a hard time cutting back on cards/archetypes I have enjoyed since the late 90's. To fit in more 3 CMC creatures in blue I need to cut away at the top end of the curve. Aetherling could be cut as control decks don't have to have much in the way of wincons.
Link to my cube: http://cubecobra.com/cube/list/19k
Here is a link: http://cubecobra.com/cube/list/19k
I am open to critiques and ideas. 2020 has been a year with more theory crafting than playtesting. I am loosing the "feel" of how the cube plays with the changes made this year.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
For myself, I think Narset, True-Name Nemesis and Thieving Skydiver should count as 3 Drops.
Hullbreacher, Vendilion Clique, Pestermite, Deciever Exarch etc. should be considered blue instant and I would cut any 3 CMC instant - Forbid comes to mind.
I would not count Brazen Borrower as 3 drop - just like how Snapcaster mage and Sea Gate Stormcaller aren't really 2 drops themselves.
Time Spiral also has a lot of combo potential with Narset (Draw-Denial) and Tolarian Academy/ Mana Doublers (Idk how many of these are played in non-storm cubes. Non-storm cubes should still have some of those.
Time Spiral is incredibly strong regardless of storm or not - its a very good finisher for ramp decks.
I don't like Aetherling myself either. Cube decks are too strong and streamlined for these types of finishes. With finishers costing 3-4 CMC such as Oko, Thief of Crowns, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, jace, the Mind Sculptor I don't see the reason to go to a 6 CMC cardl.
If your opponent is threatening lethal using cards like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Hazoret the Fervent or Doom Whisperer, I don't see how an Aetherling can really shift a the tide back in the player's favor
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
This is a very interesting comment. Hullbreacher and Narset, Parter of Veils are both cards that benefit from real blowouts with cards like Time Spiral in the deck. The only other draw 7's I have are Wheel of Fortune and Timetwister. To me Timetwister seems the weakest of these. Removing Time Spiral would make both Hullbreacher and Narset, Parter of Veils worse. Still very strong.
Losing Whirler Rogue hurts Urza,Lord High Artificer,Tinker, Opposition, Tolarian Academy, Braids, Cabal Minion, Rankle, Master of Pranks, Smokestack, Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, Goblin Welder, Darretti, Scrap Savant, Gaea's Cradle, and a few more I am not thinking off I am sure.
These small powerful cubes are having a hard time with colors becoming unidimensional - only doing the thing they are very best at. For example, I have seen several 360 powered lists that end up cutting everything that isn't hyperaggresive and burn from red because it is the best the most streamlined thing to do. No more Goblin Welder package, Wildfire package, Purphorous, God of the Forge package.
Anyhow, I cut Aetherling for Brazen Borrower and Hullbreacher is in the mail. I will have to figure something out! Maybe Search for Azcanta can go? I will think more on Whirler Rogue...
http://cubecobra.com/cube/list/19k
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
This is the exact reason why I feel the cube size should grow slightly with every new set. New cards are too streamlined and too efficient where I've seen discussions for cutting cards like Mulldrifter, Mirari's Wake, Eternal Witness because they're too slow and don't support one of the hyper stream lined archetypes such as ramp, artifact, aggro or combo decks.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
When looking specifically at the draw 7 combo, I feel that Time twister is much better than time spiral as there are far more opportunities to actually cast it being half the mana. similar to how waiting to cast kiki when you could be casting twin feels bad when you are on that combo.
2 - Emberwilde Captain vs Torbran, Thane of Red Fell ?
3 - Mardu Strike Leader vs Midnight Reaper vs Opposition Agent ? What order ?
Garruk Unleashed > Master of the Wild Hunt
Emberwilde Captain > Torbran, Thane of Red Fel
Opposition Agent > Mardu Strike Leader > Midnight Reaper
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Probably this, ya.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Torbran has been wrecking house since we included it, so I can only agree with this.