How do people feel about Spawn of Mayhem vs Rotting Regisaur? Spawn seems like it would be able to get more damage in but the regisaur might be able to fit into more decks?
God-Eternal Kefnet vs. Urza, Lord High Artificer vs. Whirler Rogue, and why?
I know the community has been pretty up on Urza, but the last ability seems very middling to me (it does not get around timing restrictions, so you generally need to do it on your turn). Without that, he makes a Karnstruct and taps artifacts for mana, which is not as game-ending as I'd like it to be. Whirler Rogue can also fit in the artifact shell and can act as a finisher as well as a roleplayer in Opposition decks. GE-Kefnet is a huge flier that occasionally provides value.
God-Eternal Kefnet vs. Urza, Lord High Artificer vs. Whirler Rogue, and why?
I know the community has been pretty up on Urza, but the last ability seems very middling to me (it does not get around timing restrictions, so you generally need to do it on your turn). Without that, he makes a Karnstruct and taps artifacts for mana, which is not as game-ending as I'd like it to be. Whirler Rogue can also fit in the artifact shell and can act as a finisher as well as a roleplayer in Opposition decks. GE-Kefnet is a huge flier that occasionally provides value.
Thoughts?
Whirler Rogue > Urza = Kefnet, IMO
- Whirler Rogue by far has the most applications. Army in a cans are a huge premium in blue, especially with Opposition.
- Urza has the highest ceiling, but is the most narrow of the 3. IMO if you're not supporting Tinker / Tolarian Academy, Urza probably will not be great for your cube.
- Kefnet is generically good and is the only real stat monster that blue has access to. His value goes up a lot if you support Moat and / or Spells Matters.
Kefnet is probably the premier Baneslayer style option for that slot (Incredible Body, Evasion, Resilience, and an occasionally wonderful ability), whereas Whirler Rogue is the best go wide option (Three bodies, thopter/artifact synergies, evasion). I agree that Urza is generally unimpressive. His floor is a Headwater Sentries between two bodies. His tap for U ability is very dependent on whether the cube is powered or at least artifact intensive (to the card's credit it does guarantee you can at least ramp for U provided the Karnstruct isn't destroyed) and beyond that it is very dependent on your board state (How many artifacts you have). The final ability is nearly flavor text.
God-Eternal Kefnet vs. Urza, Lord High Artificer vs. Whirler Rogue, and why?
I know the community has been pretty up on Urza, but the last ability seems very middling to me (it does not get around timing restrictions, so you generally need to do it on your turn). Without that, he makes a Karnstruct and taps artifacts for mana, which is not as game-ending as I'd like it to be. Whirler Rogue can also fit in the artifact shell and can act as a finisher as well as a roleplayer in Opposition decks. GE-Kefnet is a huge flier that occasionally provides value.
Thoughts?
- Whirler Rogue by far has the most applications. Army in a cans are a huge premium in blue, especially with Opposition.
- Urza has the highest ceiling, but is the most narrow of the 3. IMO if you're not supporting Tinker / Tolarian Academy, Urza probably will not be great for your cube.
Urza isn't far behind Whirler Rogue in terms of "Army in a can" and is still quite potent with Opposition. I feel like the mana advantage from urza is worth a lot more than the additional body from Rogue.
Urza has been so freaking good it's not even funny. With one other artifact in play, you get 3 power and 6 toughness across 2 bodies, and it can immediately tap for UU, making it effectively cost 2 to cast. And the last effect is hardly flavor text. Every time you don't have a play, Urza provides you with a proactive mana sink that can do all sorts of fun and powerful things. That is the absolute worst I've seen him be so far, in tons and tons of test drafts with him. When you have a bunch of artifacts on the board, it's just an insanely stupid-good bomb that doesn't even feel real it's so busted. Floor is totally acceptable (2 power and 5 toughness across 2 bodies, one of which is a blue llanowar elves that can tap for mana with haste). ACS is bonkers w/ 1 or 2 other artifacts. BCS is beyond any other recently printed card I can think of in how ridiculous the card is for the mana investment spent on it (which is effectively zero in some percentage of his games).
Is it JTMS good? No, I don't think so and I think those comparisons are an overstatement. BUT, the card is insanely good, and you don't need to be "all in" on an artifact.dec package for it to be great. It is nowhere near as contingent on other artifacts as Academy and Tezz are. Just 1-2 other artifacts and the card's legitimately insane. Most blue decks can get there with Urza with very little effort.
I underestimated Urza and he earned his spot. It's wonderful to tap a Sword of X and Y for mana or even just an utility artifact like Cloudstone Curio.
Also, I would disagree that you need a powered cube to make him work. Even with cheap non-powered cards like Jeweled Amulet you get your benefits - the effect maybe has even more impact.
Kefnet is probably the premier Baneslayer style option for that slot (Incredible Body, Evasion, Resilience, and an occasionally wonderful ability), whereas Whirler Rogue is the best go wide option (Three bodies, thopter/artifact synergies, evasion). I agree that Urza is generally unimpressive. His floor is a Headwater Sentries between two bodies. His tap for U ability is very dependent on whether the cube is powered or at least artifact intensive (to the card's credit it does guarantee you can at least ramp for U provided the Karnstruct isn't destroyed) and beyond that it is very dependent on your board state (How many artifacts you have). The final ability is nearly flavor text.
It’s an artifact synergy card.. that doesn’t require many artifacts to be good. It shouldn’t be compared independent of synergies.
It’s ceiling is so so much more powerful than anything either Kefnet or whirler rogue can do. You don't need many artifacts before urza eclipses those cards.. and with enough artifacts in the deck it's a joke of a comparison.
Mentioning the floor of Urza is a Headwater sentry is like pointing out that monastery mentor has a floor of a 2/2 for 2W. Not a useful or valid comparison at all when trying to get a sense of it's overall power level, since you shouldn't put mentor in a deck with 24 creatures.
The final ability isn’t the best thing about the card but it’s very useful, especially since Urza is both a mana generating engine and a sink.
In the context of a ramp deck I’m not sure I’d rather have the ability or ETB:draw a card on Urza.
Calling it almost flavour text is nonsense.
@LucidVision: I'm not in the practice of judging the validity of others' experiences with a card. Perhaps before striking that tone you can take a look at my list and appreciate where my take on this card comes from.
My cube is unpowered, without fast mana, swords, or jeweled amulet. Urza can play similarly to Headwater Sentries with some regularity and the last ability being completely random puts it at odds with the consistency cube decks want for their mana. So while flavor text may be a bit harsh, I can't imagine the scenario where I'm happy that this is my best line of play.
I'm glad the card has put up great results for you. It isn't for me and that is okay. Cheers.
You've clearly made up your mind about Urza, but calling it a Headwater Sentries is just kinda silly. Even in it's absolute worst-case scenario, it's infinitely better than that card. Looking at your cube list, it looks like it would be in great shape to take advantage of Urza to me. I see no fundamental reason based on cube construction that it would fail to succeed. A full cycle of Talisman and plenty of utility rocks would make a blue deck with a handful of other artifacts pretty common, I'd think.
You might not ever be happy that spinning Urza's prize wheel is your best line of play, but it's infinitely better than having no play at all. I'd rather play a 5 Rampant Growth than pass the turn empty-handed and literally do nothing. And you can hit some powerful gas with it too. Temporal Aperture is a spicy effect, and it's an absolute blast to resolve triggers.
I recommend just proxying it up for a few drafts and see how you guys like it. It's been insanely impressive, even in artifact-light decks.
@lucidvision: I still play the Foundry, and ya, this is just another great card on the list of powerful interactions with it.
In its absolute worst case scenario it has the same P/T as the Sentries but divided between two bodies one of which could grow/ramp and has synergies with other artifact matters cards. Yeah, it is better than Sentries. What I was getting at is that in my cube I see the floor more often, and Whirler Rogue provides more power and artifact synergies and Kefnet is a Baneslayer (which are criticized here about as often as they win games for me--often). I have only just added the Talismans so it is going to take me some time to see how they impact games. I definitely came to appreciate their worth in a cube session last night where I went Ancient Tomb, Talisman, Mana Dork. A combination that Signets doesn't allow for and which took me to 4 mana on turn 2.
I don't think Talismans or manarocks in general make a big difference with Urza's second ability since they already tap to produce mana (though of course they make the Karnstruct bigger). I appreciate your feedback though--it's back on course with how we should be treating each other even when we wildly disagree.
It's certainly okay to disagree. If you don't like it, you don't like it and I can't change your mind. I'd just encourage you to test it, because it's been both fun and powerful for us, and I'd hate to have you miss out on a card that could wind up being a solid performer for your playgroup. All the best.
@LucidVision: I'm not in the practice of judging the validity of others' experiences with a card. Perhaps before striking that tone you can take a look at my list and appreciate where my take on this card comes from.
My cube is unpowered, without fast mana, swords, or jeweled amulet. Urza can play similarly to Headwater Sentries with some regularity and the last ability being completely random puts it at odds with the consistency cube decks want for their mana. So while flavor text may be a bit harsh, I can't imagine the scenario where I'm happy that this is my best line of play.
I'm glad the card has put up great results for you. It isn't for me and that is okay. Cheers.
Nothing personal dude, I just thought your evaluation was misleading and exaggerated, and was criticizing it.
I have no problem with you disliking the card, just the words you wrote to evaluate it. Don't want that misleading others who havent played the card. What you wrote after to clarify it is much more reasonable.
Needing the 2 actual Mountains was a big drawback. Time and time again I was stuck unable to kill a critical artifact with Hedge-Mage because I didn't have the Mountain count for it. Far more often than the number of enchantments I ever destroyed with it. I think Manic Vandal is a better cube card, even in decks designed for Hedge-Mage to potentially shine.
Hero's Downfall VS Never // Return
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Gideon, Ally of Zendikar VS Elspeth, Knight-Errant VS Serra the Benevolent
Cloudgoat Ranger VS Lyra Dawnbringer
All 7 Swords.
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Scrounger, not close.
Slightly better card in black and very splashable in non-black agro decks with a couple black sources.
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I know the community has been pretty up on Urza, but the last ability seems very middling to me (it does not get around timing restrictions, so you generally need to do it on your turn). Without that, he makes a Karnstruct and taps artifacts for mana, which is not as game-ending as I'd like it to be. Whirler Rogue can also fit in the artifact shell and can act as a finisher as well as a roleplayer in Opposition decks. GE-Kefnet is a huge flier that occasionally provides value.
Thoughts?
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Urza >>> Kefnet = Whirler Rogue
In unpowered cubes with a lot of artifacts
Urza >> Kefnet >= Whirler Rogue
In unpowered cubes without many artifacts (no mana rocks)
Urza =? Kefnet > Whirler Rogue
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Whirler Rogue > Urza = Kefnet, IMO
- Whirler Rogue by far has the most applications. Army in a cans are a huge premium in blue, especially with Opposition.
- Urza has the highest ceiling, but is the most narrow of the 3. IMO if you're not supporting Tinker / Tolarian Academy, Urza probably will not be great for your cube.
- Kefnet is generically good and is the only real stat monster that blue has access to. His value goes up a lot if you support Moat and / or Spells Matters.
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Kefnet is probably the premier Baneslayer style option for that slot (Incredible Body, Evasion, Resilience, and an occasionally wonderful ability), whereas Whirler Rogue is the best go wide option (Three bodies, thopter/artifact synergies, evasion). I agree that Urza is generally unimpressive. His floor is a Headwater Sentries between two bodies. His tap for U ability is very dependent on whether the cube is powered or at least artifact intensive (to the card's credit it does guarantee you can at least ramp for U provided the Karnstruct isn't destroyed) and beyond that it is very dependent on your board state (How many artifacts you have). The final ability is nearly flavor text.
Urza isn't far behind Whirler Rogue in terms of "Army in a can" and is still quite potent with Opposition. I feel like the mana advantage from urza is worth a lot more than the additional body from Rogue.
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Is it JTMS good? No, I don't think so and I think those comparisons are an overstatement. BUT, the card is insanely good, and you don't need to be "all in" on an artifact.dec package for it to be great. It is nowhere near as contingent on other artifacts as Academy and Tezz are. Just 1-2 other artifacts and the card's legitimately insane. Most blue decks can get there with Urza with very little effort.
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Also, I would disagree that you need a powered cube to make him work. Even with cheap non-powered cards like Jeweled Amulet you get your benefits - the effect maybe has even more impact.
It's tough since I also do run Moat/Earthquake/Serra fliers-matters, Artifact-matters with Tinker/Academy/etc, as well as Opposition. All 3 are great.
Same with both saheelis.
More and more cards that makes Servos that have been printed that supercharge his mana production.
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It’s an artifact synergy card.. that doesn’t require many artifacts to be good. It shouldn’t be compared independent of synergies.
It’s ceiling is so so much more powerful than anything either Kefnet or whirler rogue can do. You don't need many artifacts before urza eclipses those cards.. and with enough artifacts in the deck it's a joke of a comparison.
Mentioning the floor of Urza is a Headwater sentry is like pointing out that monastery mentor has a floor of a 2/2 for 2W. Not a useful or valid comparison at all when trying to get a sense of it's overall power level, since you shouldn't put mentor in a deck with 24 creatures.
The final ability isn’t the best thing about the card but it’s very useful, especially since Urza is both a mana generating engine and a sink.
In the context of a ramp deck I’m not sure I’d rather have the ability or ETB:draw a card on Urza.
Calling it almost flavour text is nonsense.
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My cube is unpowered, without fast mana, swords, or jeweled amulet. Urza can play similarly to Headwater Sentries with some regularity and the last ability being completely random puts it at odds with the consistency cube decks want for their mana. So while flavor text may be a bit harsh, I can't imagine the scenario where I'm happy that this is my best line of play.
I'm glad the card has put up great results for you. It isn't for me and that is okay. Cheers.
You might not ever be happy that spinning Urza's prize wheel is your best line of play, but it's infinitely better than having no play at all. I'd rather play a 5 Rampant Growth than pass the turn empty-handed and literally do nothing. And you can hit some powerful gas with it too. Temporal Aperture is a spicy effect, and it's an absolute blast to resolve triggers.
I recommend just proxying it up for a few drafts and see how you guys like it. It's been insanely impressive, even in artifact-light decks.
@lucidvision: I still play the Foundry, and ya, this is just another great card on the list of powerful interactions with it.
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I don't think Talismans or manarocks in general make a big difference with Urza's second ability since they already tap to produce mana (though of course they make the Karnstruct bigger). I appreciate your feedback though--it's back on course with how we should be treating each other even when we wildly disagree.
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Nothing personal dude, I just thought your evaluation was misleading and exaggerated, and was criticizing it.
I have no problem with you disliking the card, just the words you wrote to evaluate it. Don't want that misleading others who havent played the card. What you wrote after to clarify it is much more reasonable.
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Hero's Downfall VS Never // Return
Kozilek, the Great Distortion VS Sundering Titan VS Ancient Stone Idol
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar VS Elspeth, Knight-Errant VS Serra the Benevolent
Cloudgoat Ranger VS Lyra Dawnbringer
All 7 Swords.
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