I think the Skyfisher vs Initiate is a fantastic question and depends on the cube. I see what wtwlf123 is saying regarding powered. Personally, I have Initiate for a couple reasons:
Human and Warrior matters in my list.
Controlling decks will play this if they are lacking in the early-plays department because it isn't dead vs. anybody and can really give good game vs. aggro. While this isn't incredibly important, I find it more important in my list because I don't play Wall of Omens (which I haven't missed btw).
200 card cube is super tight. I’d imagine you can do without shocklands at that size. Maybe cut that cycle, add in some City of Brass variants and use the rest as flex slots?
So I have been working on updating the white section of my cube lately.
The aggro portion has been playing really well, and the control portions have also played well, but my white midrange has suffered because I didn't quite have enough 3/4 drops to go around so I have made some recent changes, but I am having a hard time though on one more change.
I think I want 1 more 4 drop in white. Anyone have suggestions? The cut FYI for this would be Spectral Procession. I think I have 1 more 3 drop than I really need at the moment and I feel like Processions is the most disposable of the bunch. On my list right now to consider is Sublime Archangel, and Leonin Warleader. What I like about adding Archangel is exalted is always a fun mechanic, and flying is helpful for moat decks, but it feels weird to cut procession, which plays so well with sublime archangel. Mono white, procession on 3 into archangel on 4 can be a pretty powerful move. I don't like that It dies to all the red burn removal where Warleader can survive. On the other hand, Warleader feels like an overcosted Brimaz, King of Oreskos
anyone want to give some input to help me decide?
Not planning on acquiring the cards until after modern horizons since there is a good chance cube will get some staples in that set.
Warleader is less an overcosted Brimaz and more a slightly nerfed Hero of Bladehold. Even so, the card does a lot of work and I'd take it over Sublime Angel. I don't think either of these have long term staying power in cube, but their both decent options for the time being. I agree with the cut. Spectral procession is great on curve which requires WWW. There's a real disconnect in this forum in that some of the same people who relentlessly criticize 2-3 drops with double colored mana costs will defend this card's inclusion all the way down to 360 lists. If I have to pay 2WW for this, it's considerably worse and that happens fairly often.
There's no disconnect there at all. It goes into decks that can try to cast it for WWW, but in scenarios where you don't hit double-white until T4, Spectral Procession is a much more powerful T4 play than a WW 2cc bear. Procession can safely slot into decks with ~10 white sources because the failsafe casting mode of 2WW is still fine. The same can't be said for CC 2-drops.
Many posters frequently regard cards with double CC and triple CC costs as not cubeable because of the difficulty of hitting their costs on curve--which is correct--and I'm saying this card has that same problem in spades, but isn't subjected to the same scrutiny. The ceiling of this card is above average if you can reliably hit WWW, but the floor is average at best for 2WW. The floor scenario comes up about as often as the ceiling in my experience and makes the card very cuttable in small-medium lists.
Strictly comparing this at 2WW to bears with double colored costs on turn 3 and saying which would you be more okay with is a disingenuous way to do this. How about would you rather cast your 3 drop on time with something else in the slot like History of Benalia or would you rather wait an extra turn for this half of the time? I like to cast my spells on curve when possible. We should examine this card with the same lens as we have others and for me that analysis means this card is on the chopping block.
Many posters frequently regard cards with double CC and triple CC costs as not cubeable because of the difficulty of hitting their costs on curve--which is correct--and I'm saying this card has that same problem in spades, but isn't subjected to the same scrutiny. The ceiling of this card is above average if you can reliably hit WWW, but the floor is average at best for 2WW. The floor scenario comes up about as often as the ceiling in my experience and makes the card very cuttable in small-medium lists.
Strictly comparing this at 2WW to bears with double colored costs on turn 3 and saying which would you be more okay with is a disingenuous way to do this. How about would you rather cast your 3 drop on time with something else in the slot like History of Benalia or would you rather wait an extra turn for this half of the time? I like to cast my spells on curve when possible. We should examine this card with the same lens as we have others and for me that analysis means this card is on the chopping block.
I agree. You definitely can't credibly call Procession a 3-drop and its not really worth four mana compared to any of the top options. I think the only legitimate case for SP is that the white aggro decks tend to lean heavier white making it more plausible to cast it for 3. I allow that justification for cards that are insanely powerful like Once More With Feeling but SP definitely isn't on that level
Many posters frequently regard cards with double CC and triple CC costs as not cubeable because of the difficulty of hitting their costs on curve--which is correct--and I'm saying this card has that same problem in spades, but isn't subjected to the same scrutiny.
It's because it's not the same thing at all. For all the reasons I explained above. If I can cast a WW 2-drop on T2, great. But if I don't hit my double-white until T4, the sun has set on the effectiveness of the 2cc bear. The same is not the case for Spectral Procession. If you hit your triple white on curve, fantastic. But if not, it's a far more acceptable T4 play than the color-heavy bears are. And unlike 2cc CC cards, Procession is a stronger topdeck, and so waiting until like T6 or whatever is fine if you draw it later; it's a powerful 3cc play at any stage of the curve. Most of the 2cc bears aren't. 1C costs are so much more important for 2cc cards than they are for more expensive spells, and Procession is very reasonable for 2WW if you miss on curve, and fantastic if you can cast it for 3 mana. When you miss with bears, it hurts your curve/gameplan a lot more.
I think you're dramatically undervaluing the difference in cost here. Do you have any idea how powerful a card like (insert any CCC-costed card here) would be if you exchanged that mana cost with a 2/X option for it instead? Geralf's Messenger would be a bonkers card if decks could play it when they're heavy black instead of just mono-black.
Its arguable what its exact power level is and how many bonus pts you give it for being castable for 4 or 5 mana but that argument is kind of tangential to the fact that we're talking about a very fringe card if your Cube is <500.
Although "very reasonable" is rather generous when you consider that things like Battle Screech and Triplicate Spirits are available -- at common.
You keep using the 2CC bear as your point of reference for comparison and to be fair I did say "2-3 drops with double colored costs" in my original post but what I was getting at is how our concerns about double colored or triple colored mana costs should come into play in the evaluation of this card. You can't fairly compare this coming down a turn late to a bear coming down two turns late. You can fairly compare this to something like History of Benalia in terms of value and reliability as it is also a 3 drop.
There are many 1WW (or 1BB, etc...) cards that get passed because they won't reliably come down on turn 3? This is the same thing! Only worse because it is WWW!
What we ultimately disagree on is how reasonable the floor is for Spectral Procession. Would I run Geralf's Messenger if the cost were ? NO!
We'll have to agree to disagree and move on. I think I've illustrated why the bar is different for a WW 2cc creature and Spectral Procession. You don't agree. That's fine.
There's a reason why the bar is set at T4 for double-colored cards too. 10 sources is the first benchmark for making CC cards castable 75+% of the time, but that's not until T4 at the earliest. In order to play 2cc CC cards on curve on the play, you need like 13+ sources for it to be reliable. Since non-monocolored decks have a hard time reliably reaching that mana demand, calculating double-color availability on T4 is much more reasonable. The cost on Procession allows it to be reliably playable only a turn later than what is ideal when you "miss". The same cannot be said for a 2cc card with a CC cost. But whatever, you don't agree with that assessment, so I guess we're just done here.
I emphatically do agree with you on what you've illustrated. What I don't get is why you continue to think that is the point I'm arguing over? I feel like this is textbook straw man and I'm not pointing that out to attack you so much as to say I don't know how else to say that isn't and never was my argument.
You keep making this same point that we already agree upon about 2CC vs. 4CC and...(This is my argument -->)I'm saying let's talk about 3CC vs 4cc since that is the two casting modes of Spectral Procession (that we care about) and maybe other 3cc options that come down more reliably might be better suited for various cubes since the WWW mode isn't consistent enough and at 2WW I feel this is subpar value. (<-- This is my argument)
I play a lot of 1CC cards, and I'm not nearly as critical on them as I am of CC cards. It felt like you were saying I was being hypocritical for criticizing 2cc CC bears, but not critical of Procession. I was explaining why. I play a lot of 1CC cards in my cube, and almost no CC 2cc permanents, since the difference between playing a 3-drop a turn late isn't as hard on your development than having to wait on your 2-drops. While I do think there's a significant advantage for 2C cards over 1CC cards, it's nowhere near as big as the gap between a 1C card and a CC card. I was illustrating why I'm hard on CC cards but still like Procession. Nothing more. Since I don't have nearly the same criticisms for 1CC cards.
Anyways, cheers man. Thanks for the good discussion. I must've been misunderstanding your original comments.
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With that said, I'd maybe also toss in a few of the signets or the like as some non-green ramp.
Etali, Primal Storm EDH
Smokestack works just fine, same for ramp
200 card cube is super tight. I’d imagine you can do without shocklands at that size. Maybe cut that cycle, add in some City of Brass variants and use the rest as flex slots?
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The aggro portion has been playing really well, and the control portions have also played well, but my white midrange has suffered because I didn't quite have enough 3/4 drops to go around so I have made some recent changes, but I am having a hard time though on one more change.
I think I want 1 more 4 drop in white. Anyone have suggestions? The cut FYI for this would be Spectral Procession. I think I have 1 more 3 drop than I really need at the moment and I feel like Processions is the most disposable of the bunch. On my list right now to consider is Sublime Archangel, and Leonin Warleader. What I like about adding Archangel is exalted is always a fun mechanic, and flying is helpful for moat decks, but it feels weird to cut procession, which plays so well with sublime archangel. Mono white, procession on 3 into archangel on 4 can be a pretty powerful move. I don't like that It dies to all the red burn removal where Warleader can survive. On the other hand, Warleader feels like an overcosted Brimaz, King of Oreskos
anyone want to give some input to help me decide?
Not planning on acquiring the cards until after modern horizons since there is a good chance cube will get some staples in that set.
Thanks
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Strictly comparing this at 2WW to bears with double colored costs on turn 3 and saying which would you be more okay with is a disingenuous way to do this. How about would you rather cast your 3 drop on time with something else in the slot like History of Benalia or would you rather wait an extra turn for this half of the time? I like to cast my spells on curve when possible. We should examine this card with the same lens as we have others and for me that analysis means this card is on the chopping block.
I agree. You definitely can't credibly call Procession a 3-drop and its not really worth four mana compared to any of the top options. I think the only legitimate case for SP is that the white aggro decks tend to lean heavier white making it more plausible to cast it for 3. I allow that justification for cards that are insanely powerful like Once More With Feeling but SP definitely isn't on that level
It's because it's not the same thing at all. For all the reasons I explained above. If I can cast a WW 2-drop on T2, great. But if I don't hit my double-white until T4, the sun has set on the effectiveness of the 2cc bear. The same is not the case for Spectral Procession. If you hit your triple white on curve, fantastic. But if not, it's a far more acceptable T4 play than the color-heavy bears are. And unlike 2cc CC cards, Procession is a stronger topdeck, and so waiting until like T6 or whatever is fine if you draw it later; it's a powerful 3cc play at any stage of the curve. Most of the 2cc bears aren't. 1C costs are so much more important for 2cc cards than they are for more expensive spells, and Procession is very reasonable for 2WW if you miss on curve, and fantastic if you can cast it for 3 mana. When you miss with bears, it hurts your curve/gameplan a lot more.
I think you're dramatically undervaluing the difference in cost here. Do you have any idea how powerful a card like (insert any CCC-costed card here) would be if you exchanged that mana cost with a 2/X option for it instead? Geralf's Messenger would be a bonkers card if decks could play it when they're heavy black instead of just mono-black.
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Although "very reasonable" is rather generous when you consider that things like Battle Screech and Triplicate Spirits are available -- at common.
There are many 1WW (or 1BB, etc...) cards that get passed because they won't reliably come down on turn 3? This is the same thing! Only worse because it is WWW!
What we ultimately disagree on is how reasonable the floor is for Spectral Procession. Would I run Geralf's Messenger if the cost were ? NO!
There's a reason why the bar is set at T4 for double-colored cards too. 10 sources is the first benchmark for making CC cards castable 75+% of the time, but that's not until T4 at the earliest. In order to play 2cc CC cards on curve on the play, you need like 13+ sources for it to be reliable. Since non-monocolored decks have a hard time reliably reaching that mana demand, calculating double-color availability on T4 is much more reasonable. The cost on Procession allows it to be reliably playable only a turn later than what is ideal when you "miss". The same cannot be said for a 2cc card with a CC cost. But whatever, you don't agree with that assessment, so I guess we're just done here.
Cheers, and happy cubing!
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You keep making this same point that we already agree upon about 2CC vs. 4CC and...(This is my argument -->)I'm saying let's talk about 3CC vs 4cc since that is the two casting modes of Spectral Procession (that we care about) and maybe other 3cc options that come down more reliably might be better suited for various cubes since the WWW mode isn't consistent enough and at 2WW I feel this is subpar value. (<-- This is my argument)
Cheers back at ya!
Anyways, cheers man. Thanks for the good discussion. I must've been misunderstanding your original comments.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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