There's a big difference between Recruiters and Spellseeker not just by their targets, but the decks that they typically are in. Recruiters are usually in creature heavy proactive decks and a lot of Spellseeker's prime targets are in more passive, reactive decks. Tapping out turn 3 for a 1/1 that reveals your best trick isn't exactly what I want to do in a lot of blue decks. Not to mention there's a huge difference between finding a spell / sorcery with cmc two or less and finding a creature with 2 power / toughness. Recruiters would be super unplayable if they only found 2-cmc creatures, but you can get all the utility / power you want with 2 power / toughness really.
Yes, but in proactive decks, spending 3 mana for a 1/1 that gets another threat is also not really want you want to be doing. At least reactive decks have the luxury of time on their side, since they generally are designed to play for -> win the long game. Ideally you should have other options on turn 3 than just casting spellseeker.
A deck with a bunch of cheap spells is generally better in the early game than a deck with expensive clunky sorcery speed threats, and spellseeker works best with a bunch of cheap spells... hence doesn't mind getting delayed a bit to resolve.
Revealing the reactive spell does come at a cost , but it isn't large.
The last point is somewhat moot, since there are no 1-2 CMC creatures that come close to 1U Take an extra turn or GG win the game. But yeah, the flexibility of getting an answer for the situation or expensive bomb if you happen to be in the mid-late game is one of the primary advantages of the other recruiters. This one substitutes the secondary upside for getting absurdly broken spells. (again this discussion is focused on powered cubes since the original question was for a powered cube)
There's a big difference between Recruiters and Spellseeker not just by their targets, but the decks that they typically are in.
Agreed. Most of my Recruiter decks are engineered around the creatures they're tutoring for, or they go into decks that can make the 1/1 body be worth more than a 1/1 body. Tutoring either half of a Braids/Bloodghast thing with a Recruiter makes the 1/1 body a great fit in the shell, since the deck will be loaded with ways to sacrifice the body for value. In decks abusing ETB triggers, Recruiter grabs your blink/bounce targets AND is also a good blink/bounce target itself. In token/anthem shells, the Recruiters can grab key army-in-a-can spells and then immediately benefit themselves from your blanket pump effects. Spellseeker felt out of place as a 3-mana 1/1 in the decks that played it. There are few decks that are built around cheap toolbox spells that can also makde decent use of the 1/1 body.
I'd estimate it falls into a deck with time walk or recall about 25%+ of the time spellseeker is in the draft... since spell seeker skyrockets in pick value once a deck has blue power.
In my experience decks with blue power are the only ones that really wanted it. As in, it is rare the card makes the maindeck if I don't have blue power or possess enough playables.
@Lucidvision - you mention in one post that you probably wouldn't run Man-o'-War or Spellseeker at 360 (or at least that was my interpretation. I found this very thought provoking.
@Everyonee
What is the third inclusion after TNN and Clique (I assume these two are consensus top 3) at the blue 3 drop spot? I run those two plus Man-o'War currently.
I appreciate the discussion back and forth. I think everyone has had the opportunity to learn something they did not know before the conversation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
Maybe the printing shouldn't matter, but it is tough to take alpha/beta cards out of my cube. There are only a few in my collection that still make the cube (the others are Lightning Bolt and Regrowth- and I can see a day that Regrowth gets cut, along with several basic lands).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
@Lucidvision - you mention in one post that you probably wouldn't run Man-o'-War or Spellseeker at 360 (or at least that was my interpretation. I found this very thought provoking.
@Everyonee
What is the third inclusion after TNN and Clique (I assume these two are consensus top 3) at the blue 3 drop spot? I run those two plus Man-o'War currently.
I appreciate the discussion back and forth. I think everyone has had the opportunity to learn something they did not know before the conversation.
I think I would run spellseeker at 360 but it’s close.
There’s an enormous drop off after TNN/clique, and it’s possible I’d play no other 3 drop. You certainly don’t have to. Theres soo many good spells that it’s hard justify many of the creatures over them. The other 4 colours provide more than enough good creatures for a cube to be creature heavy, independent of blue.
Non-creature spells and the few busted creatures that blue do have, can still provide support as the secondary color in a tempo (or creature based midrange) strategy... without trying to hit some sort of minimum creature quota.
For a small powered cube, I believe #3 would probbaly be spellseeker , though trinket mage is very close.
Maybe the printing shouldn't matter, but it is tough to take alpha/beta cards out of my cube. There are only a few in my collection that still make the cube (the others are Lightning Bolt and Regrowth- and I can see a day that Regrowth gets cut, along with several basic lands).
If you support reanimator, cutting entomb would only be done to nerf that strategy.
It is so far and away the best enabler for it, that any reanimator deck gets dramatically worse with its abscence.
Dark ritual is less important to a specific archetype , but an extremly good card , playable in almost every black archetype and has a lot of nostalgic/historic value.
I’d cut ritual before entomb, but cutting either would be madness in my eyes... at any size
Entomb ≥ Ritual, but I'd be loathe to let either one go.
Man-o'-War and Trinket Mage are my two favorites behind Clique and TNN. I also categorize Phyrexian Metamorph there, since it's like a 3 card with a U kicker.
If you support traditional reanimator (not to be confused with Recurring Nightmare value decks), Entomb is a must. Dark Ritual to me is auxiliary (unless you're supporting hard mono black with BBB spells I guess0.
I'm a huge fan of Wildfire decks. Kiki is really fun, but I think Wildfire takes less dedicated spots in the cube and the cards you would run are good enough outside that deck. Some of the Kiki cards are subpar when not in the combo deck.
Wildfire in a heartbeat. Twin's been done to death. Wildfire's more wide open because you can do it in any color pair.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'll also chime in for Wildfire. I really dislike the Kiki combo. Mostly because it's such a feel bad (for me, anyway) to just lose seemingly out of nowhere to a two card combo.
Kiki/Twin is like...you play these cards in your deck because they win. What's the rest of your deck? Control spells and draw spells. The end. It's not interesting to me from a gameplay perspective, a deckbuilding perspective, or a drafting perspective.
Meanwhile, Wildfire is a card that broadens Red's identity. The cards you want to make available to this deck can even give other interesting options; for example, Wildfire makes a red deck incentivized to take artifact mana. Artifact mana can play well with other artifact themes, enticing use of cards like Goblin Welder and Daretti, Scrap Savant. Daretti's looting and trash for treasure ability can even work with reanimator, and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast even has some use over there. Iconoclast's tokens have use in sacrifice themes.
I can take some or all of these cards and make new variations on old themes that vary in win conditions and approaches. And I enjoy these themes. I've just never enjoyed playing with or against kiki/twin, and I don't feel like the cards individually broaden Red's scope. Just strikes me as parasitic.
As a cube designer / individual player, my vote goes to Wildfire for 2 reasons:
- Wildfire adds a lot of depth to red and takes up very little cube real estate, especially compared to Kiki-Twin.
- I'm more partial to play Wildfire than I am Kiki-Twin
However, I will admit that Kiki-Twin is more popular among other players. This is probably due to a combination of Splinter Twin being infamously banned in Modern and Wildfire / Burning of Xinye not being as prolific in constructed, therefore isn't on a lot of players radar (especially newer / younger ones).
Ya, they don't remember Kai Budde winning the World Championship in 1999 with a big red Wildfire deck. Pepperidge Farms remembers, and Pepperidge Farms ain't gonna let no newfangled combo take over as red's coolest non-aggro deck.
Ya, they don't remember Kai Budde winning the World Championship in 1999 with a big red Wildfire deck. Pepperidge Farms remembers, and Pepperidge Farms ain't gonna let no newfangled combo take over as red's coolest non-aggro deck.
ok, so here is a good this or that theory craft question.
Suppose that next year WOTC decides to finally finish the Horizon Canopy Cycle, Would you run the man lands or the Horizon Canopy Cycle?
For the purpose of the discussion, you can only pick 1...
Personally I would probably run the Horizon Canopy Cycle, but both types of cards are so good... (maybe mix and match and run the good manlands for guilds that have them, and run horizon cycle for the rest?
Also, here is my plea to wizards to finally print them!
Yes, but in proactive decks, spending 3 mana for a 1/1 that gets another threat is also not really want you want to be doing. At least reactive decks have the luxury of time on their side, since they generally are designed to play for -> win the long game. Ideally you should have other options on turn 3 than just casting spellseeker.
A deck with a bunch of cheap spells is generally better in the early game than a deck with expensive clunky sorcery speed threats, and spellseeker works best with a bunch of cheap spells... hence doesn't mind getting delayed a bit to resolve.
Revealing the reactive spell does come at a cost , but it isn't large.
The last point is somewhat moot, since there are no 1-2 CMC creatures that come close to 1U Take an extra turn or GG win the game. But yeah, the flexibility of getting an answer for the situation or expensive bomb if you happen to be in the mid-late game is one of the primary advantages of the other recruiters. This one substitutes the secondary upside for getting absurdly broken spells. (again this discussion is focused on powered cubes since the original question was for a powered cube)
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Agreed. Most of my Recruiter decks are engineered around the creatures they're tutoring for, or they go into decks that can make the 1/1 body be worth more than a 1/1 body. Tutoring either half of a Braids/Bloodghast thing with a Recruiter makes the 1/1 body a great fit in the shell, since the deck will be loaded with ways to sacrifice the body for value. In decks abusing ETB triggers, Recruiter grabs your blink/bounce targets AND is also a good blink/bounce target itself. In token/anthem shells, the Recruiters can grab key army-in-a-can spells and then immediately benefit themselves from your blanket pump effects. Spellseeker felt out of place as a 3-mana 1/1 in the decks that played it. There are few decks that are built around cheap toolbox spells that can also makde decent use of the 1/1 body.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Check out my competitive Ezuri, Claw of Progress primer!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
In my experience decks with blue power are the only ones that really wanted it. As in, it is rare the card makes the maindeck if I don't have blue power or possess enough playables.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
@Everyonee
What is the third inclusion after TNN and Clique (I assume these two are consensus top 3) at the blue 3 drop spot? I run those two plus Man-o'War currently.
I appreciate the discussion back and forth. I think everyone has had the opportunity to learn something they did not know before the conversation.
Dark Ritual (Alpha) vs. Entomb?
Maybe the printing shouldn't matter, but it is tough to take alpha/beta cards out of my cube. There are only a few in my collection that still make the cube (the others are Lightning Bolt and Regrowth- and I can see a day that Regrowth gets cut, along with several basic lands).
I think I would run spellseeker at 360 but it’s close.
There’s an enormous drop off after TNN/clique, and it’s possible I’d play no other 3 drop. You certainly don’t have to. Theres soo many good spells that it’s hard justify many of the creatures over them. The other 4 colours provide more than enough good creatures for a cube to be creature heavy, independent of blue.
Non-creature spells and the few busted creatures that blue do have, can still provide support as the secondary color in a tempo (or creature based midrange) strategy... without trying to hit some sort of minimum creature quota.
For a small powered cube, I believe #3 would probbaly be spellseeker , though trinket mage is very close.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
If you support reanimator, cutting entomb would only be done to nerf that strategy.
It is so far and away the best enabler for it, that any reanimator deck gets dramatically worse with its abscence.
Dark ritual is less important to a specific archetype , but an extremly good card , playable in almost every black archetype and has a lot of nostalgic/historic value.
I’d cut ritual before entomb, but cutting either would be madness in my eyes... at any size
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Man-o'-War and Trinket Mage are my two favorites behind Clique and TNN. I also categorize Phyrexian Metamorph there, since it's like a 3 card with a U kicker.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
[180 classic cube]
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Check out my competitive Ezuri, Claw of Progress primer!
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Kiki/Twin is like...you play these cards in your deck because they win. What's the rest of your deck? Control spells and draw spells. The end. It's not interesting to me from a gameplay perspective, a deckbuilding perspective, or a drafting perspective.
Meanwhile, Wildfire is a card that broadens Red's identity. The cards you want to make available to this deck can even give other interesting options; for example, Wildfire makes a red deck incentivized to take artifact mana. Artifact mana can play well with other artifact themes, enticing use of cards like Goblin Welder and Daretti, Scrap Savant. Daretti's looting and trash for treasure ability can even work with reanimator, and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast even has some use over there. Iconoclast's tokens have use in sacrifice themes.
I can take some or all of these cards and make new variations on old themes that vary in win conditions and approaches. And I enjoy these themes. I've just never enjoyed playing with or against kiki/twin, and I don't feel like the cards individually broaden Red's scope. Just strikes me as parasitic.
- Wildfire adds a lot of depth to red and takes up very little cube real estate, especially compared to Kiki-Twin.
- I'm more partial to play Wildfire than I am Kiki-Twin
However, I will admit that Kiki-Twin is more popular among other players. This is probably due to a combination of Splinter Twin being infamously banned in Modern and Wildfire / Burning of Xinye not being as prolific in constructed, therefore isn't on a lot of players radar (especially newer / younger ones).
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Man, I wish Covetous Dragon was good in cube.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Suppose that next year WOTC decides to finally finish the Horizon Canopy Cycle, Would you run the man lands or the Horizon Canopy Cycle?
For the purpose of the discussion, you can only pick 1...
Personally I would probably run the Horizon Canopy Cycle, but both types of cards are so good... (maybe mix and match and run the good manlands for guilds that have them, and run horizon cycle for the rest?
Also, here is my plea to wizards to finally print them!
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569