Yeah, I'd probably take Languish over -5/-5 variant since it's much harder to break the symmetry, 6 toughness creatures are far and few between compared to 5 toughness.
I don't think I would because Languish is cool in decks with 5 toughness creatures and you'd lose that utility.
Expertise is uniquely positioned to work well in heavy B lists. So many creatures come back. Killing crawler, bloodghast, bloodsoaked champion - it's not really a big deal because you can very easily get them back. It's a classic symmetrical effect that isn't really symmetrical. And black needs this.
Generally speaking when talking hard aggro, black does it worse than red and white. White has better creatures that don't do damage to you. Red has burn and now has creatures of equivalent power to other colors. Black has to do this differently or it just loses to other versions of the same play style. Black is great in an aggro/control shell. Discard and denial tools to hurt other decks. Expertise should be really really great there. Pluck away non-creature cards with duress and company. Let creatures come down. Kill creatures with expertise and follow-up with your own aggressive dude on the same turn you wipe the board.
And you don't even have to slow play your attack if you have recurring guys. Bloodghast into Expertise really doesn't matter too much since he's back in action with a simple land drop. No other color can do this which is what makes non-traditional aggressive black decks so interesting.
Even with recursion, Yahenni's Expertise is still a conflict of interest in Bloodsoaked Champion beatdown decks. Recursion aside, it still kills 95% of your creatures and is a major conflict of interest of what any aggro / tempo deck is trying to accomplish. Yahenni's Expertise being able to make those tempo plays does not mean that tempo decks want it.
Yahenni's Expertise is a bad card in tempo decks. Even with recursive bodies, something would've had to have gone abysmally wrong during my draft to wind up playing Expertise in my Bloodsoaked Champion deck. In fact, I'm almost positive I'd run an extra swamp over it when deckbuilding. Now, a midrange deck with like Courser of Kruphix and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet? Sweet. That's a deck that can use Expertise that probably won't play Languish. But not in tempo (aggro/control) decks. Expertise provides good tempo recovery, but it's not a card for tempo decks.
As a tangent, this is why I'm not super hopeful on Dusk//Dawn. There is the added bonus of the second half acting as gas, but I think there is also a conflict of interest in a deck that is probably running anthems and some number of 3 power creatures vs what Dusk does. The second half helps, but there's still so much time between casting that 5 mana spell, playing the creatures you get back, and re-applying that pressure.
I actually like Polukranos more since 5 toughness is pretty key in a lot of situations, especially compared to Master being a 3/3. Polukranos can survive FTK / Languish / Wildfire / Earthquakes below 5, Master can't even eat a Lightning Bolt. The sturdiness of Polukranos is harder to replace than the token aspect of Master of the Hunt, IMO.
Agreed with steve_man. Also, Polukranos is a great mana sink, a faster clock and usually a better removal. Polukranos is better against planeswalkers - kill the token, punch the Elspeth. Master is very slow at what it does, Polukranos is a better topdeck. I'm actually considering cutting master at 720. It feels like a weaker version of Garruk Relentless. Great with Opposition or in token decks, but most green decks around here ramp.
Whereas Polukranos is on the bubble for me, and easily is the green 4-drop I'd cut first if I had to. Repeatable removal without having to sink any additional mana into it, fodder for Braids/Abyss/Stack, support for token shells, and a card that can completely run away with the game if it goes unchecked. And after a few turns, even removal still leaves you with multiple wolves on the battlefield. I'm securely in the Master of the Wild Hunt camp on this one. Fortunately for Polukranos, the options in the 4cc green creature section are pretty light, so it's safe for now.
Whereas Polukranos is on the bubble for me, and easily is the green 4-drop I'd cut first if I had to. Repeatable removal without having to sink any additional mana into it, fodder for Braids/Abyss/Stack, support for token shells, and a card that can completely run away with the game if it goes unchecked. And after a few turns, even removal still leaves you with multiple wolves on the battlefield. I'm securely in the Master of the Wild Hunt camp on this one. Fortunately for Polukranos, the options in the 4cc green creature section are pretty light, so it's safe for now.
Both Master and Polly-K have been on the bubble for me, really wouldn't mind replacing both in the future. However, Master's job has gotten eaten up by every other 4-cmc token generating planeswalker and has been seeing less maindeck inclusion than Polukranos has (in my decks at least).
When Angel of Invention was spoiled, a lot of people had difficulty choosing between Cloudgoat Ranger vs Baneslayer Angel. While CGR is often heralded as the better card overall, BSA fills the stat monster role that none of the other 5-drops could.
Polukranos has actually gone up in value over the past years for me. Being able to eat Yahenni's Expertise is another notch to Polukranos' belt and the recent printing of Regal Behemoth is keeping mana sinks in demand like Polukranos, Duskwatch Recruiter, and Walking Ballista.
I've always felt Master was a tad slow. Clearly, it can take over a game if it sticks around long enough though, so it probably has a higher ceiling than Poluk. Master also has this sweet Game of Thrones vibe about it. And flavor factors into card choices for me, so I can see appeal on that front.
Poly is better than it was when it was first spoiled, but it's still on the bubble for me. Whereas Master is nowhere near the chopping block. It can simply dominate games and boards where it goes unanswered, it can be used as removal into later stages of the game, and requires no further mana investment.
Poly is better than it was when it was first spoiled, but it's still on the bubble for me. Whereas Master is nowhere near the chopping block.
For us it is exactly the opposite. Master is worse as a topdeck, worse as an offensive tool, is usually killed for 1-2 mana at turn 3 and is seldom able to block without dying the turn you play him so also plays worse defense. In instances when it survives long enough to generate card advantage, most four drops would have also survived and been game winning. I agree green's four drops have a lot of room for improvement though.
Definitely prefer Polukranos to Master of the Wild Hunt. I'm even thinking of cutting Master at 450 and playing Surrak, the Hunt Caller, to try to push RG Fires a little, for something different.
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Definitely both. There are a few deathtouch dudes in your green section that could get a cut.
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Both is probably the correct answer in a high powered cube. But if you have to choose, Rofellos and it's not close.
Looking at his cube, he's not running the OG duals which hurts Rolfellos enough to might be a dealbreaker vs Lotus Cobra. But he also does have an elf theme....
Both are staples regardless, can't imagine cubing without both (except when I actually didn't cube Rolfellos).
There are a few deathtouch dudes in your green section that could get a cut.
Yeah i am looking at cutting thornweald archer for rofellos because it stays with the elf tribal sub theme I have. the other cut i would be looking at is strangleroot geist for lotus cobra if i add them both... but i kind of want to keep strangleroot for green aggro. I feel like my fixing is pretty good so i am less inclined for lotus cobra.
When i first made my cube i included both thornweald archer and kessig recluse because I wanted my green section to have some interaction with flying. i think kessig recluse is going to become wickerbough elder pretty shortly, though it does do a nice job playing defence and shoring up attacks from spirit, drake, and faerie tokens.
how important is it to have green creatures with reach or deathtouch? most decks are 2 colours and can play non green removal so i dont really feel it necesary anymore.
Deathtouch / Reach are nice but are usually never the reason to run anything, IMO. The only green cards I play with deathtouch are Acidic Slime, Hornet Queen, and Garruk Relentless and Noose Constrictor is my only creature with reach.
The community ranked Rofellos #3 and Lotus Cobra #15 in the latest Power Rankings for green. If power level is a priority for you, you really do want both.
However, if it isn't (and the title of your cube on CT suggests it may well not be), there are a few things you should consider as to whether or not you want them. Rofellos has an absurd ceiling, making it possible for you to ramp from 2 mana on Turn 2 to 6 mana on Turn 3. You're not running the full complement of mana elves, so you might not really be trying to heavily support ramp heavily in green, and might not want that kind of fast mana available to your green decks. Rofellos is also a narrower card, not only because it's double green, but because it also requires a lot of Forests to do anything. You don't really want it in a deck that has less than 10 Forests (and even that's pushing it).
Lotus Cobra has a lower ceiling, but it's a more versatile card since it's splashable, and helps fix your colors. It's also a more aggressive card since you can get your burst of extra mana precombat to cast creatures and/or removal, then attack with it. However, it doesn't ramp nearly as hard, usually only giving you 1 mana per turn, with the occasional burst of 2-3 (e.g. play & crack a fetch, cast Cultivate). I love Lotus Cobra in 3+ color zoo aggro decks where Rofellos would be a lot worse, and Cobra's still very good in a dedicated ramp deck.
In other words, if you want to support explosive heavy green ramp decks that can outpace powered cube decks with moxen, run Rofellos. If you want something more aggressive and versatile, run the cobra. Not running both, though, is reducing the power level of your cube's green section.
When i first made my cube i included both thornweald archer and kessig recluse because I wanted my green section to have some interaction with flying. i think kessig recluse is going to become wickerbough elder pretty shortly, though it does do a nice job playing defence and shoring up attacks from spirit, drake, and faerie tokens.
how important is it to have green creatures with reach or deathtouch? most decks are 2 colours and can play non green removal so i dont really feel it necesary anymore.
I haven't really found it necessary for my cube, green heavy ramp decks usually have ways to go over the top of decks that are trying to overwhelm with small fliers, and green midrange decks can rely on their other colors for removal. However, if you're finding that your green decks are having a serious problem with this, than you might want to find a way to address it. It looks like you're not running Master of the Hunt, Garruk Relentless, or Polukranos, World Eater, which are some of the best options for mono-green removal that can deal with small fliers. If those are too rich for your blood, Thornweald Archer's doing fine work in my Peasant cube, as well as Seed Guardian and Great Oak Guardian, and Hurricane's another possible hoser that more aggressive green decks can also use as a finisher, but in the long run you probably are better off with more versatile removal options in your green section.
Deathtouch / Reach are nice but are usually never the reason to run anything, IMO.
I love me some Deathtouch, it all but guarantees that you can get a card's worth of value out of any creature that has it. Acidic Slime wouldn't be the reliable 2-for-1 that it is without it because the body can trade off with almost anything, and Ophiomancer and Hornet Queen are insane because of it. In lower powered cube environments and retail limited, small deathtouchers are excellent and worth prioritizing, and having some of them in your 1 and 2 drop sections isn't the worst idea.
I am eventually wanting to upgrade to ABUR Dual lands in my cube but am not sure what to cut. I currently run the full sets of manlands, shocks and fetches. When I add the dual lands I am cutting 5 vivid lands, reflecting pool, tendo ice bridge, and hanweir battlements (until we get a real red utility land that is cubeable).
I need to cut 2 of the following to make room for the rest. Currently leaning towards mana confluence and mutavault, sadly.
The reasons for my thoughts are that city of brass and confluence are a little redundant and i dont like mana confluences yellow frame. Same thing with mutavault being redundant with factory but just not as good an imitation as the original. As a bonus it would make all of my utility lands stand out from duals in that they would all have oldschool borders.
Even with recursion, Yahenni's Expertise is still a conflict of interest in Bloodsoaked Champion beatdown decks. Recursion aside, it still kills 95% of your creatures and is a major conflict of interest of what any aggro / tempo deck is trying to accomplish. Yahenni's Expertise being able to make those tempo plays does not mean that tempo decks want it.
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Both Master and Polly-K have been on the bubble for me, really wouldn't mind replacing both in the future. However, Master's job has gotten eaten up by every other 4-cmc token generating planeswalker and has been seeing less maindeck inclusion than Polukranos has (in my decks at least).
When Angel of Invention was spoiled, a lot of people had difficulty choosing between Cloudgoat Ranger vs Baneslayer Angel. While CGR is often heralded as the better card overall, BSA fills the stat monster role that none of the other 5-drops could.
Polukranos has actually gone up in value over the past years for me. Being able to eat Yahenni's Expertise is another notch to Polukranos' belt and the recent printing of Regal Behemoth is keeping mana sinks in demand like Polukranos, Duskwatch Recruiter, and Walking Ballista.
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Poly is better than it was when it was first spoiled, but it's still on the bubble for me. Whereas Master is nowhere near the chopping block. It can simply dominate games and boards where it goes unanswered, it can be used as removal into later stages of the game, and requires no further mana investment.
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Keep both and find another cut. Looking at your cube, do you really need Kessig Recluse?
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Looking at his cube, he's not running the OG duals which hurts Rolfellos enough to might be a dealbreaker vs Lotus Cobra. But he also does have an elf theme....
Both are staples regardless, can't imagine cubing without both (except when I actually didn't cube Rolfellos).
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Yeah i am looking at cutting thornweald archer for rofellos because it stays with the elf tribal sub theme I have. the other cut i would be looking at is strangleroot geist for lotus cobra if i add them both... but i kind of want to keep strangleroot for green aggro. I feel like my fixing is pretty good so i am less inclined for lotus cobra.
When i first made my cube i included both thornweald archer and kessig recluse because I wanted my green section to have some interaction with flying. i think kessig recluse is going to become wickerbough elder pretty shortly, though it does do a nice job playing defence and shoring up attacks from spirit, drake, and faerie tokens.
how important is it to have green creatures with reach or deathtouch? most decks are 2 colours and can play non green removal so i dont really feel it necesary anymore.
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However, if it isn't (and the title of your cube on CT suggests it may well not be), there are a few things you should consider as to whether or not you want them. Rofellos has an absurd ceiling, making it possible for you to ramp from 2 mana on Turn 2 to 6 mana on Turn 3. You're not running the full complement of mana elves, so you might not really be trying to heavily support ramp heavily in green, and might not want that kind of fast mana available to your green decks. Rofellos is also a narrower card, not only because it's double green, but because it also requires a lot of Forests to do anything. You don't really want it in a deck that has less than 10 Forests (and even that's pushing it).
Lotus Cobra has a lower ceiling, but it's a more versatile card since it's splashable, and helps fix your colors. It's also a more aggressive card since you can get your burst of extra mana precombat to cast creatures and/or removal, then attack with it. However, it doesn't ramp nearly as hard, usually only giving you 1 mana per turn, with the occasional burst of 2-3 (e.g. play & crack a fetch, cast Cultivate). I love Lotus Cobra in 3+ color zoo aggro decks where Rofellos would be a lot worse, and Cobra's still very good in a dedicated ramp deck.
In other words, if you want to support explosive heavy green ramp decks that can outpace powered cube decks with moxen, run Rofellos. If you want something more aggressive and versatile, run the cobra. Not running both, though, is reducing the power level of your cube's green section.
I haven't really found it necessary for my cube, green heavy ramp decks usually have ways to go over the top of decks that are trying to overwhelm with small fliers, and green midrange decks can rely on their other colors for removal. However, if you're finding that your green decks are having a serious problem with this, than you might want to find a way to address it. It looks like you're not running Master of the Hunt, Garruk Relentless, or Polukranos, World Eater, which are some of the best options for mono-green removal that can deal with small fliers. If those are too rich for your blood, Thornweald Archer's doing fine work in my Peasant cube, as well as Seed Guardian and Great Oak Guardian, and Hurricane's another possible hoser that more aggressive green decks can also use as a finisher, but in the long run you probably are better off with more versatile removal options in your green section.
I love me some Deathtouch, it all but guarantees that you can get a card's worth of value out of any creature that has it. Acidic Slime wouldn't be the reliable 2-for-1 that it is without it because the body can trade off with almost anything, and Ophiomancer and Hornet Queen are insane because of it. In lower powered cube environments and retail limited, small deathtouchers are excellent and worth prioritizing, and having some of them in your 1 and 2 drop sections isn't the worst idea.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I think I am going to go with lotus cobra with a possible include of rofellos down the road if i choose to go more a heavy ramp theme.
I am eventually wanting to upgrade to ABUR Dual lands in my cube but am not sure what to cut. I currently run the full sets of manlands, shocks and fetches. When I add the dual lands I am cutting 5 vivid lands, reflecting pool, tendo ice bridge, and hanweir battlements (until we get a real red utility land that is cubeable).
I need to cut 2 of the following to make room for the rest. Currently leaning towards mana confluence and mutavault, sadly.
ancient tomb
city of brass
mana confluence
mishra's factory
mutavault
wasteland
The reasons for my thoughts are that city of brass and confluence are a little redundant and i dont like mana confluences yellow frame. Same thing with mutavault being redundant with factory but just not as good an imitation as the original. As a bonus it would make all of my utility lands stand out from duals in that they would all have oldschool borders.
thoughts?