Realizing that I have a huge glut of green 5 drops (which is kind of easy because they're all very good), but I want to cut something for Regal Behemoth and I have no 6-drops to cut (only running primetime currently). Cube size is 380, unpowered.
I'm leaning towards hydra, garruk, or plow under. Mainly because I haven't gotten to use Gearhulk much yet, even though it might be the right choice?. If I were playing Nissa Worldwaker, Garruk would be an easy cut, but right now I only have the other two garruks. Polukranos I suppose is also an option? But if I leave in hydra, those pair well together. Maybe it's just plow under.
Reflector Mage and Sphere are cards that go into both tempo and control decks and will nearly always make the cut. Both are worth splashing. Queller is a solely tempo card and less splashworthy as his value drops quickly in later turns. Spell Queller is a good card, likely stronger than Sphere in a vacuum, but the two other Azorius three drops are better and that pushes his ranking down. FWIW, I currently like and play all three.
I think they're pretty even though I would give Goliath the nod due to getting some utility out of him landing in the graveyard. That being said, I like Phantom Centaur over both for second tier 4 drops.
Definitely Surrak over any of the others. Maybe Blastoderm if I have to play a second but I ideally wouldn't. As for the 5-drops, I'd cut Hydra because it completely fails the Vindicate test, which is bad news for a 5-drop.
do I cut yahenni's expertise for damnation? (it's such a fun and unique card though!)
do i cut night's whisper and run 4 black sweepers? (I feel like that might be too may in a single colour...)
what percentage of a cube should be sweepers anyways?
I'm staring down the same problem when my Damnation arrives. I'll be at 450 soon and am thinking I want to play 3 black sweepers. Obviously Deluge and Damnation are best, but I'm almost thinking I'll run Expertise over Languish just because Expertise has huge upside.
Here's what Languish hits that Expertise doesn't in my cube: Brimaz, Restoration Angel, Hero of Bladehold, Spellskite, Meloku, Kalitas, and Courser of Kruphix. It seems like 5 toughness matters a lot more in cube than 4 does, and Languish misses all the 5 toughness ones anyway. Sure, you say, but Languish approximates Wildfire and maybe helps that deck, but BR Wildfire is rare anyway and helping out that deck and missing the seven creatures I listed above doesn't seem like as big a game as getting a free spell stapled to the sweeper. It probably hurts the matchup against W-based aggro most, but black has enough spot removal to make up for it, I hope?
Plus I hate the dumb alligator art on Languish anyway.
@visserdrix My numbers probably don't apply to your cube, since your aggro support seems less extensive, while you have more midrange stuff happening than I do. There might be a huge difference in Expertise and Languish in your cube.
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
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i love the alligator on the full art game day languish!
i feel similarly where getting to tack on a 3 drop for free with the expertise is a nice change from languish and plays differently than a pure wrath. also if you prioritize picking creatures with 4 or greater toughness, then expertise can be a really nice lop-sided effect. languish on the other hand significantly cuts down on the number of creature options you have to potentially break the symmetry but is more effective in wiping everything.
At 450, I don't run Yahenni's but I run the other three. At 375, you likely just need two, and those two should be Deluge and Damnation. I don't run Night's Whisper at 450, so I'd think about replacing that as well.
While playtesting, group preference etc can change what should and shouldn't be played in a cube,
Mathematically, a 450 cube supports 10 people, if on average decks are 2 colored or mostly 2 colored, that means in 10 people, 4 people will be playing each color.
if 1 of those 4 is in black aggro (and presumably not looking for a black wrath effect), and the 3 others are midrange control etc and are looking for the effect, then it's really only 1.33 wrath effect per person which I think is completely reasonable, especially considering access to tutor like effects which black has plenty of.
my cube is running 360 right now, which means 3 people on average play black, 1 is aggro, so 2 players and I run 2 effects, but Languish is just barely on the outside looking in. I will add it when I jump to 405 in the next few weeks.
I think to add the Expertise or not really depends on playtesting and each group, and I could see each group deciding either way and not being wrong.
Yahenni's Expertise isn't just a sweeper though. It's a tempo card. And it works well with black's recurring creature suite. Expertise into a 2 or 3 drop beater with Geralf's Messenger on the board is a very strong play against midrange and it probably just wins you the game versus other aggro decks.
I get why people are comparing it to Damnation, Deluge and Languish but it's more versatile than all three IMO. I don't presently run it but it's on my list of potential adds for this reason.
Yahenni's Expertise isn't just a sweeper though. It's a tempo card. And it works well with black's recurring creature suite. Expertise into a 2 or 3 drop beater with Geralf's Messenger on the board is a very strong play against midrange and it probably just wins you the game versus other aggro decks.
I get why people are comparing it to Damnation, Deluge and Languish but it's more versatile than all three IMO. I don't presently run it but it's on my list of potential adds for this reason.
Versatile card, yes, but they compete in the same control decks that don't play an abundance of creatures. We can split hairs all day on Expertise vs Languish / Damnation, but the deciding factor for me is the range of creatures it can kill. Languish is nice because -4/-4 is enough to kill any aggro creature that typically sees play and most midrange creatures while allowing your control finishers to survive. The strongest aggro / above average midrange creatures can live through Expertise. I'm currently playing all 4 black sweepers, but Expertise will be the first
to go if I need to make a cut, no questions asked.
If you evaluate them as purely sweepers, I agree. But Languish/Damnation are pretty much unplayable outside control. Expertise has a home in aggro/control builds and maybe even some straight midrange decks with an abundance of 4 toughness things.
If you evaluate them as purely sweepers, I agree. But Languish/Damnation are pretty much unplayable outside control. Expertise has a home in aggro/control builds and maybe even some straight midrange decks with an abundance of 4 toughness things.
I can see Expertise being played in some planeswalker heavy midrange lists, but not in any of my tempo (aggro / control) decks. Those decks rely on a lot of 2/2 and 3/3 creatures and are more concerned about dealing with bigger threats than playing crowd control.
It has some play in midrange that isn't open to Languish, but it's a bad card in tempo shells. It has too much interaction with your own (numerous) cheap creatures there. I don't think that the minor difference in playable decks is significant enough to classify it as a completely different kind of spell.
I don't think I would because Languish is cool in decks with 5 toughness creatures and you'd lose that utility.
Expertise is uniquely positioned to work well in heavy B lists. So many creatures come back. Killing crawler, bloodghast, bloodsoaked champion - it's not really a big deal because you can very easily get them back. It's a classic symmetrical effect that isn't really symmetrical. And black needs this.
Generally speaking when talking hard aggro, black does it worse than red and white. White has better creatures that don't do damage to you. Red has burn and now has creatures of equivalent power to other colors. Black has to do this differently or it just loses to other versions of the same play style. Black is great in an aggro/control shell. Discard and denial tools to hurt other decks. Expertise should be really really great there. Pluck away non-creature cards with duress and company. Let creatures come down. Kill creatures with expertise and follow-up with your own aggressive dude on the same turn you wipe the board.
And you don't even have to slow play your attack if you have recurring guys. Bloodghast into Expertise really doesn't matter too much since he's back in action with a simple land drop. No other color can do this which is what makes non-traditional aggressive black decks so interesting.
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These are the options:
I'm leaning towards hydra, garruk, or plow under. Mainly because I haven't gotten to use Gearhulk much yet, even though it might be the right choice?. If I were playing Nissa Worldwaker, Garruk would be an easy cut, but right now I only have the other two garruks. Polukranos I suppose is also an option? But if I leave in hydra, those pair well together. Maybe it's just plow under.
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Agreed.
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I agree with the green six drop ranking.
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right now my black sweeper section consists of:
toxic deluge
languish
yahenni's expertise
do I cut yahenni's expertise for damnation? (it's such a fun and unique card though!)
do i cut night's whisper and run 4 black sweepers? (I feel like that might be too may in a single colour...)
what percentage of a cube should be sweepers anyways?
At 375 you probably don't need more than Deluge / Damnation. I think all 4 is more than enough in my 540 at the moment.
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Here's what Languish hits that Expertise doesn't in my cube: Brimaz, Restoration Angel, Hero of Bladehold, Spellskite, Meloku, Kalitas, and Courser of Kruphix. It seems like 5 toughness matters a lot more in cube than 4 does, and Languish misses all the 5 toughness ones anyway. Sure, you say, but Languish approximates Wildfire and maybe helps that deck, but BR Wildfire is rare anyway and helping out that deck and missing the seven creatures I listed above doesn't seem like as big a game as getting a free spell stapled to the sweeper. It probably hurts the matchup against W-based aggro most, but black has enough spot removal to make up for it, I hope?
Plus I hate the dumb alligator art on Languish anyway.
@visserdrix My numbers probably don't apply to your cube, since your aggro support seems less extensive, while you have more midrange stuff happening than I do. There might be a huge difference in Expertise and Languish in your cube.
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i feel similarly where getting to tack on a 3 drop for free with the expertise is a nice change from languish and plays differently than a pure wrath. also if you prioritize picking creatures with 4 or greater toughness, then expertise can be a really nice lop-sided effect. languish on the other hand significantly cuts down on the number of creature options you have to potentially break the symmetry but is more effective in wiping everything.
Interesting trade offs.
I'm also on: Toxic Deluge ≥ Damnation > Languish > Yahenni's Expertise
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Mathematically, a 450 cube supports 10 people, if on average decks are 2 colored or mostly 2 colored, that means in 10 people, 4 people will be playing each color.
if 1 of those 4 is in black aggro (and presumably not looking for a black wrath effect), and the 3 others are midrange control etc and are looking for the effect, then it's really only 1.33 wrath effect per person which I think is completely reasonable, especially considering access to tutor like effects which black has plenty of.
my cube is running 360 right now, which means 3 people on average play black, 1 is aggro, so 2 players and I run 2 effects, but Languish is just barely on the outside looking in. I will add it when I jump to 405 in the next few weeks.
I think to add the Expertise or not really depends on playtesting and each group, and I could see each group deciding either way and not being wrong.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
I get why people are comparing it to Damnation, Deluge and Languish but it's more versatile than all three IMO. I don't presently run it but it's on my list of potential adds for this reason.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Versatile card, yes, but they compete in the same control decks that don't play an abundance of creatures. We can split hairs all day on Expertise vs Languish / Damnation, but the deciding factor for me is the range of creatures it can kill. Languish is nice because -4/-4 is enough to kill any aggro creature that typically sees play and most midrange creatures while allowing your control finishers to survive. The strongest aggro / above average midrange creatures can live through Expertise. I'm currently playing all 4 black sweepers, but Expertise will be the first
to go if I need to make a cut, no questions asked.
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http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
I can see Expertise being played in some planeswalker heavy midrange lists, but not in any of my tempo (aggro / control) decks. Those decks rely on a lot of 2/2 and 3/3 creatures and are more concerned about dealing with bigger threats than playing crowd control.
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end of turn: would you play it over Languish or Expertise?
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Expertise is uniquely positioned to work well in heavy B lists. So many creatures come back. Killing crawler, bloodghast, bloodsoaked champion - it's not really a big deal because you can very easily get them back. It's a classic symmetrical effect that isn't really symmetrical. And black needs this.
Generally speaking when talking hard aggro, black does it worse than red and white. White has better creatures that don't do damage to you. Red has burn and now has creatures of equivalent power to other colors. Black has to do this differently or it just loses to other versions of the same play style. Black is great in an aggro/control shell. Discard and denial tools to hurt other decks. Expertise should be really really great there. Pluck away non-creature cards with duress and company. Let creatures come down. Kill creatures with expertise and follow-up with your own aggressive dude on the same turn you wipe the board.
And you don't even have to slow play your attack if you have recurring guys. Bloodghast into Expertise really doesn't matter too much since he's back in action with a simple land drop. No other color can do this which is what makes non-traditional aggressive black decks so interesting.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/