Evolving Wilds and Undiscovered Paradise are both premium 5-color fixing lands, so I'd make room for both as soon as you can. If you only have room for one, I'd go with Undiscovered Paradise because it's more aggro-friendly, but because of the price difference it'd be hard to blame you for adding Evolving Wilds first if you don't happen to have a Paradise on hand.
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Evolving Wilds and Undiscovered Paradise are both premium 5-color fixing lands, so I'd make room for both as soon as you can. If you only have room for one, I'd go with Undiscovered Paradise because it's more aggro-friendly, but because of the price difference it'd be hard to blame you for adding Evolving Wilds first if you don't happen to have a Paradise on hand.
I second all of this.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Eh... Maybe I get more unlucky with Bob than others? I always seem to hit damage cards with him and it isn't uncommon to see situations where I have to ditch him or he'll kill me.
Hey ahadabans, I want to apologize for my tone in the previous response; it came off more curt than I intended it to. I guess I was just surprised by the statement about Bob, since counting my own "outs" to Confidant has never been a determining factor for whether or not it makes my final 40. That decision is generally determined by the shell and the overall CMC more than anything. Anyways, thanks for the response.
Dying to your own Bob flip earns a pack when my group plays.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Can't find it, but there was a video where LSV put Bob and Emrakul into a cube deck together and in the final game of the first (and only) round he flipped Emrakul with 16 life. He did not win that game.
Eh... Maybe I get more unlucky with Bob than others? I always seem to hit damage cards with him and it isn't uncommon to see situations where I have to ditch him or he'll kill me.
Hey ahadabans, I want to apologize for my tone in the previous response; it came off more curt than I intended it to. I guess I was just surprised by the statement about Bob, since counting my own "outs" to Confidant has never been a determining factor for whether or not it makes my final 40. That decision is generally determined by the shell and the overall CMC more than anything. Anyways, thanks for the response.
No worries. I know my cube is more esoteric that most lists, so some of my feedback can be a tad off in left field at times. While I support more aggro than I used to, straight black aggro has never really worked for my group so it's generally more a recursive aggro type of thing (gravecrawler/carrion feeder) with more denial type support (POX/discard). Bob still works in decks like that as a way to outdraw and get through your own "symmetrical" board/hand destruction stuff but with a higher curve it's also riskier. Bob works fine as a splash too clearly, and in more aggressive WB/RB decks it's often less of a problem (Bob killing you I mean). Again though, I do feel I'm constantly the guy flipping my one 4/5 drop to him pretty much every game no matter what I build with him. Grrr...
As a side question, would you guys recommend Rancor or Curse of Predation without explicit green aggro support in a cube? I was considering going Curse to help green support tokens.
@Spikerogue: Thanks, I'll probably pick up a copy of
I'm going to swap in Shrine of the Burning Rage and give it a whirl in my unpowered version. The card is stellar in peasant cube.
As a side question, would you guys recommend Rancor or Curse of Predation without explicit green aggro support in a cube? I was considering going Curse to help green support tokens.
It's hard for me to rate the red cards since they serve many different purposes, but I would usually try to replace like with like, so either Marauders (considering Shrine an aggro card) or Defiance (considering it flexible burn). I'd lean towards cutting Marauders. That said, my experience of Shrine in powered/unpowered is kinda lackluster - it's slow, it only hits once, and everyone is running artifact removal.
I have a soft spot for Curse of Predation. Something about it makes it feel like a card that shouldn't be in a traditional cube, but then you try it and suddenly you end up with a board full of pumped-up Bitterblossom tokens and a very sad opponent. I think adding those cards without the green aggro one-drops is fine. Green is already pretty nice with token decks since it has the Garruks, good general purpose two-drops and a bunch of Regrowth effects to reuse your token generators.
Shardless Agent>>Kiora, the Crashing Wave>Kiora, Master of the Depths
Decks that run Shardless Agent with counter spells he can hit aren't doing it right. Look at Legacy lists that run him--the general theme is to *never* run a counter spell that he can hit, and then you never have the feel-bad moments that can only be blamed on deck construction. This means you make some concessions in deck building, but there are a number of UG builds that would be made w/o shard less agent where a 2mana or less counter spell would be counterproductive as is considering how Im using my mana every turn i.e. tapping out, and those are the decks that run Shardless.
FWIW I like Master of the Depths over Crashing Wave. Higher starting loyalty and potential card advantage right when you need to restock your hand or big ramp / pseudo vigilance for defense makes her pretty versatile.
I so wish Collective Defiance cost 2R instead of 1RR. Having the flexibility of the spell plus an extra discard outlet in red is awesome, but it's tough to cast in the UWR Mentor / Pyromancer lists that want it.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Shardless Agent vs Kiora, Master of the Depths vs Kiora, the Crashing Wave is a really hard question since they are quite close in power level. I think it mostly comes down to personal preference and which type of UG deck you want to support more. I've recently cut my last Kiora for Agent, but I can easily see myself switching back. Agent is kinda awkward when you want to run cheap counter spells in you Simic midrange deck. I prefer Depths to Wave because the latter turned out to be soooo boring. Plus plus plus ulimate win yawn. That's how she played almost every single game. At least Depths has a real choice with her plus and minus abilities.
Most interested in the following discussions points:
1) Which one is in a vacuum stronger.
2) Which one is the more interesting card to you.
3) In which decks would you rather have one over the other.
1) The ability to increase loyalty while producing a threat makes LoI stronger in a vacuum.
2) I think producing emblems that stay after the 'walker is dealt with is a unique and interesting concept.
3) In races and aggro mirrors, I'd rather have SV because of the global lifelink. Otherwise I prefer SoI.
Most interested in the following discussions points:
1) Which one is in a vacuum stronger.
2) Which one is the more interesting card to you.
3) In which decks would you rather have one over the other.
I think LoI is better but not by a whole lot (just > instead of >>). LoI is better when you have little to no board presence, better when you are not racing and better against mass removals. LoI is an endless supply of sac fodder for stacks decks. His ultimate is quite easy to achieve and very powerful, and if you do not care about the lifegain, his pump is better. I'd generally want him in most decks that play his colors. I find the tension between the plus and minus abilities to be real - both ways to victory are viable and require planning ahead.
SV is not splashworthy or even playworthy for decks with low creature counts. However it is undeniably a bomb in many common situations. In cubes where board stalls and big creatures are more common, SV gains a lot of value.
GftT and Price have gone down a bit in value since adding vehicles (running 3 currently, and will probably add Heart of Kiran), but the BB on affliction is still tough sometimes. That said, I'm also considering just running two of the above and a Ruinous Path. That also has the problem of not hitting vehicles though. Any opinions?
Are vehicles that much of a problem? In my 450 cube, I don't run any of those cards. I do run Ruinous Path (I've been considering switching it out for a Price). GftT and Price hit the most targets, even with Vehicles so I'd consider those the keepers or run Price and Affliction because Affliction is great when you turn it on. You may also have to accept that black's best way to deal with vehicles is to kill the crew.
Thanks for the reply. Would you say strike leader is better because of its less restrictive mana cost and the ability to curve out on turn 4 with it if needed?
Evolving Wilds and Undiscovered Paradise are both premium 5-color fixing lands, so I'd make room for both as soon as you can. If you only have room for one, I'd go with Undiscovered Paradise because it's more aggro-friendly, but because of the price difference it'd be hard to blame you for adding Evolving Wilds first if you don't happen to have a Paradise on hand.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I second all of this.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Hey ahadabans, I want to apologize for my tone in the previous response; it came off more curt than I intended it to. I guess I was just surprised by the statement about Bob, since counting my own "outs" to Confidant has never been a determining factor for whether or not it makes my final 40. That decision is generally determined by the shell and the overall CMC more than anything. Anyways, thanks for the response.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
EDIT: http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-lsv-cube-draft-12 not sure which video it is as I can't check it, but Im fairly certain it's this draft
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
No worries. I know my cube is more esoteric that most lists, so some of my feedback can be a tad off in left field at times. While I support more aggro than I used to, straight black aggro has never really worked for my group so it's generally more a recursive aggro type of thing (gravecrawler/carrion feeder) with more denial type support (POX/discard). Bob still works in decks like that as a way to outdraw and get through your own "symmetrical" board/hand destruction stuff but with a higher curve it's also riskier. Bob works fine as a splash too clearly, and in more aggressive WB/RB decks it's often less of a problem (Bob killing you I mean). Again though, I do feel I'm constantly the guy flipping my one 4/5 drop to him pretty much every game no matter what I build with him. Grrr...
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
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I'm going to swap in Shrine of the Burning Rage and give it a whirl in my unpowered version. The card is stellar in peasant cube.
Help me cut one please:
Earthquake vs Keldon Marauders vs Collective Defiance vs Smash to Smithereens
As a side question, would you guys recommend Rancor or Curse of Predation without explicit green aggro support in a cube? I was considering going Curse to help green support tokens.
450 Unpowered Cube Cobra
It's hard for me to rate the red cards since they serve many different purposes, but I would usually try to replace like with like, so either Marauders (considering Shrine an aggro card) or Defiance (considering it flexible burn). I'd lean towards cutting Marauders. That said, my experience of Shrine in powered/unpowered is kinda lackluster - it's slow, it only hits once, and everyone is running artifact removal.
I have a soft spot for Curse of Predation. Something about it makes it feel like a card that shouldn't be in a traditional cube, but then you try it and suddenly you end up with a board full of pumped-up Bitterblossom tokens and a very sad opponent. I think adding those cards without the green aggro one-drops is fine. Green is already pretty nice with token decks since it has the Garruks, good general purpose two-drops and a bunch of Regrowth effects to reuse your token generators.
Check out my competitive Ezuri, Claw of Progress primer!
I'd run K, MotD, but I'm not a fan of Agent because I always cascade into my counterspells. I'm sure he's great as a splash blue card though.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
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Decks that run Shardless Agent with counter spells he can hit aren't doing it right. Look at Legacy lists that run him--the general theme is to *never* run a counter spell that he can hit, and then you never have the feel-bad moments that can only be blamed on deck construction. This means you make some concessions in deck building, but there are a number of UG builds that would be made w/o shard less agent where a 2mana or less counter spell would be counterproductive as is considering how Im using my mana every turn i.e. tapping out, and those are the decks that run Shardless.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Agree completely. FWIW, I am no longer playing the kioras at 720.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
Agent > Depths > Wave
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
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EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
- Gifts Ungiven
- Glimmer of Genius
- Fortune's Favor
- Epiphany at the Drownyard
Rank these white token makers:- Angel of Invention
- Cloudgoat Ranger
- Secure the Wastes
...Shardless Agent vs Kiora, Master of the Depths vs Kiora, the Crashing Wave is a really hard question since they are quite close in power level. I think it mostly comes down to personal preference and which type of UG deck you want to support more. I've recently cut my last Kiora for Agent, but I can easily see myself switching back. Agent is kinda awkward when you want to run cheap counter spells in you Simic midrange deck. I prefer Depths to Wave because the latter turned out to be soooo boring. Plus plus plus ulimate win yawn. That's how she played almost every single game. At least Depths has a real choice with her plus and minus abilities.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Most interested in the following discussions points:
1) Which one is in a vacuum stronger.
2) Which one is the more interesting card to you.
3) In which decks would you rather have one over the other.
Angel > Cloudgoat ≥ Secure
..........
Lord of Innistrad >> Solemn Visitor, IMO.
1) The ability to increase loyalty while producing a threat makes LoI stronger in a vacuum.
2) I think producing emblems that stay after the 'walker is dealt with is a unique and interesting concept.
3) In races and aggro mirrors, I'd rather have SV because of the global lifelink. Otherwise I prefer SoI.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Angel > Cloudgoat > Secure
I think LoI is better but not by a whole lot (just > instead of >>). LoI is better when you have little to no board presence, better when you are not racing and better against mass removals. LoI is an endless supply of sac fodder for stacks decks. His ultimate is quite easy to achieve and very powerful, and if you do not care about the lifegain, his pump is better. I'd generally want him in most decks that play his colors. I find the tension between the plus and minus abilities to be real - both ways to victory are viable and require planning ahead.
SV is not splashworthy or even playworthy for decks with low creature counts. However it is undeniably a bomb in many common situations. In cubes where board stalls and big creatures are more common, SV gains a lot of value.
The list on cube cobra
Read my blog on cube - Latest post June 2nd 2022
GftT and Price have gone down a bit in value since adding vehicles (running 3 currently, and will probably add Heart of Kiran), but the BB on affliction is still tough sometimes. That said, I'm also considering just running two of the above and a Ruinous Path. That also has the problem of not hitting vehicles though. Any opinions?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
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Rank the following black 3 drops please:
Liliana, Heretical Healer, Mardu Strike Leader, Curse of Shallow Graves
450 Unpowered Cube Cobra
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
450 Unpowered Cube Cobra