Yup, I was just surprised that almost no one here runs Search. I understand that Entomb is a high priority pick for reanimate because of it's cheap cost and tutoring effect, but if you're pushing reanimate then I think Frantic Search is more than fair to run. My players have enjoyed it so I'll probably continue to run it for more testing purposes. Thing in the Ice looks so fun and there is a ton of flavor there. I might just give it a whirl and cut either Enclave Cryptologist or Serum Visions for it.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance vs. Sneak Attack. While they are both really powerful cards for red, which one do you think is more important or more useful in the cube?
Is there nothing else you can cut instead? Those cards seem like staples and are exciting to both draft and play. I don't think I would ever want to cut either, but if I had to choose then I guess I would cut Chandra because Sneak Attack diversifies Red by creating an entire archetype almost by itself.
I think both of those red 4's need to be in. I mean, the 4cc red noncreature section is stacked, and the competition is fierce, but it's largely because those two cards take up the first 2 slots in pretty much every cube.
While they're definitely staples on power level, not everybody supports Sneak and Show, which is why I classified Sneak Attack as an "optional" staple.
I value the greater amount of card selection in Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand (I know, you didn't ask) over the instant speed of Opt, but it's close. Having to wait until your opponent's upkeep for Portent to even replace itself puts it far down the list of cantrips, although in a big enough cube I could see running it.
I see Gush as too narrow for the typical cube, although it does see play and perform well in the MTGO Vintage Cube in Storm decks. While it might work out in some tempo decks, I wouldn't bother with Gush unless I were also supporting Storm.
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I agree with this. Serum Visions is the only one I'd consider, Sleight of Hand would be a reach but I guess acceptable, and I don't think the others are great cube cards except in cubes that aren't running Ponder/Preordain/etc
Gush is a strong effect that is hard to abuse in cube. I think it's the most powerful of those 5 though in a vacuum. After that, I like opt because it's instant and you dig 2 right away - so it's better at finding something now. Serum Visions is solid though I think a tad weaker than Opt personally. Sleight/Portent I don't think make cube at any size honestly. Unless you intentionally want to weaken blue card quality effects (potentially a legit design choice). If you are going for a more power oriented design though, there are simply way too many other better options.
Gush definitely has the highest ceiling but also by far the lowest floor. I think there are a lot more consistent blue cards you could run, when you are Gush'ing the way Gush is typically seen, you feel like a boss, but when it's 4U or returning two islands doesn't work out in your favor, feels bad.
Also, I saw on reddit the other day that there's an entire book on how to use Gush and it's applications both in game and with deck building in Vintage, written by Steve Menendian. I've read some of his free material on Gush, which were really interesting in terms of the scope and scale of the card in its application, so I imagine the book is probably that on steroids.
Serum Visions > Opt > Sleight of Hand >> Gush > Portent
I am playing and happy with the first three. Gush is by far the narrowest here, but at least I can see the applications for it and reasons to include it, which I cannot say about Portent.
Welp, I was also considering the other cantrips, but I had an inkling that Serum visions was going to be the highest voted card here. Glad to know I was right.
As much as I love Gush, I do agree that it might not be able to make it in cube. I imagine there's going to be too many instances where you don't want to bounce 2 islands making the card a bit too inconsistent. I do run fastbond so I guess it'll probably be a bit better in my cube than others though.
I think you want both Baral and Thing to support a spells matters deck, or maybe run neither. I was expecting Baral to be better, but after playing it more I think Thing is the more impressive effect. I have both in right now, but I think I'd cut Baral first if I were to let one go.
I was expecting Baral to be better, but after playing it more I think Thing is the more impressive effect. I have both in right now, but I think I'd cut Baral first if I were to let one go.
Can you expand on this? I think I have an idea why and probably will end up agreeing, but still wanna hear why.
Well I feel that the payoff is simply stronger, and it's a much more interesting effect to strive after. While I think Baral is more likely to have an impact on the average game, TitI is more likely to win one for you.
Baral is one of my favorite cards in magic right now. I love countering spells, and he is a bad ass in the story. But in a cube Thing in the Ice probably better. I think they are both playable at any size cubes, but Thing just looks playable in more decks.
I would say the opposite. I think Baral is playable is more decks, but Thing will perform better in shells designed to take advantage of it. And I don't think either are good enough for small cubes, personally.
Visions over Moon. Moon is just bad removal. Blue isn't good at removing stuff, so splash another color and get removal that isn't jank. That's the whole point of the color pie.
I haven't played Baral or Thing. Thing looks really swingy but clearly requires a deck to maximize. Cost reducers are really only good in combo - storm or something - (a good spells matter deck won't benefit much from it IMO since you want a large number of 1CC cards), so that is going to be very cube dependent I feel. That said a 1/3 for 2 is serviceable in control even without the perk.
I cut Murderous Redcap from Rakdos a while ago, but I like the creature quite a bit and was looking at my black 4s and thought I may just run it as a black card. These ones are non-negotiable: Braids, Skinrender, Nekrataal. I've got room for two more black 4s.
Cut one: Abyssal Persecutor, Gonti, Redcap.
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You have two 187 guys already at the 4 slot (Nekrataal and Skinrender), so redcap is the most expendable IMO.
Abyssal Persecutor is my favorite of the three simply because of how much fun it is to play and how many interesting game situations it tends to create. Really great design. The "drawback" is mostly flavor text in actual play. I've never seen anyone lose to it. Your opponent has to respect that you probably have an answer, so letting that thing get them below zero health is extremely precarious. It's pretty rare when the persecutor player has to off him. Your opponent will almost always do it for you because 6/6 flying tramplers are a problem you generally can't ignore. Persecutor hits stupidly hard for a 4 drop, blocks like a champ too. Can't be chumped by anything other than a baneslayer. Card is game warpingly build-around good. I'd only second guess that card if your cube list is painfully short on sacrifice outlets. Most normal cubes can play persecutor with no issues at all. If you can run Bob, you can run persecutor.
What? Bob is completely fine in a deck without sacrifice outlets, so it's not the same thing at all. I can't remember ever sacrificing my own Confidant to mitigate its drawback in this format. It just goes in low-curve decks and draws extra cards. And even if removing Confidant was critical to your gameplan for some reason, there are a lot of ways to remove it that don't work with Persecutor. Like 'Clamp, all of black's toughness-based removal and every burn spell in the cube.
On the other hand, I found the drawback on Persecutor to be very real, and I'd much rather use any big dumb beater that doesn't have the words "you can't win the game" on it, and just aim my removal at my opponent's creatures.
Eh... Maybe I get more unlucky with Bob than others? I always seem to hit damage cards with him and it isn't uncommon to see situations where I have to ditch him or he'll kill me.
You have two 187 guys already at the 4 slot (Nekrataal and Skinrender), so redcap is the most expendable IMO.
Abyssal Persecutor is my favorite of the three simply because of how much fun it is to play and how many interesting game situations it tends to create. Really great design. The "drawback" is mostly flavor text in actual play. I've never seen anyone lose to it. Your opponent has to respect that you probably have an answer, so letting that thing get them below zero health is extremely precarious. It's pretty rare when the persecutor player has to off him. Your opponent will almost always do it for you because 6/6 flying tramplers are a problem you generally can't ignore. Persecutor hits stupidly hard for a 4 drop, blocks like a champ too. Can't be chumped by anything other than a baneslayer. Card is game warpingly build-around good. I'd only second guess that card if your cube list is painfully short on sacrifice outlets. Most normal cubes can play persecutor with no issues at all. If you can run Bob, you can run persecutor.
I agree that the card creates interesting game play situations but I have trouble fitting it into decks. Aggro decks do not want to delay their clock by the amount of turns it will take you to find a sac outlet. I remember instances in aggro where they just kept the card in hand as the chance to draw burn to finish the deal where higher than the chance of getting a sacrifice outlet.
When behind, AP just blocks one guy. It has flying, but look how better the other black four drops are in this role. In attrition based matchups, Persecutor has the problem of not providing any value if being answered by removals and bounce. Especially bad are answers that keep him on board, such as Maze of Ith, Tamiyo etc.
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Is there nothing else you can cut instead? Those cards seem like staples and are exciting to both draft and play. I don't think I would ever want to cut either, but if I had to choose then I guess I would cut Chandra because Sneak Attack diversifies Red by creating an entire archetype almost by itself.
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While they're definitely staples on power level, not everybody supports Sneak and Show, which is why I classified Sneak Attack as an "optional" staple.
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Gush, Serum Visions, Portent, Opt
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I value the greater amount of card selection in Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand (I know, you didn't ask) over the instant speed of Opt, but it's close. Having to wait until your opponent's upkeep for Portent to even replace itself puts it far down the list of cantrips, although in a big enough cube I could see running it.
I see Gush as too narrow for the typical cube, although it does see play and perform well in the MTGO Vintage Cube in Storm decks. While it might work out in some tempo decks, I wouldn't bother with Gush unless I were also supporting Storm.
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I agree with this. Serum Visions is the only one I'd consider, Sleight of Hand would be a reach but I guess acceptable, and I don't think the others are great cube cards except in cubes that aren't running Ponder/Preordain/etc
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Also, I saw on reddit the other day that there's an entire book on how to use Gush and it's applications both in game and with deck building in Vintage, written by Steve Menendian. I've read some of his free material on Gush, which were really interesting in terms of the scope and scale of the card in its application, so I imagine the book is probably that on steroids.
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Serum Visions > Opt > Sleight of Hand >> Gush > Portent
I am playing and happy with the first three. Gush is by far the narrowest here, but at least I can see the applications for it and reasons to include it, which I cannot say about Portent.
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As much as I love Gush, I do agree that it might not be able to make it in cube. I imagine there's going to be too many instances where you don't want to bounce 2 islands making the card a bit too inconsistent. I do run fastbond so I guess it'll probably be a bit better in my cube than others though.
How about this one this then:
I'm currently running Brainstorm, Preordain, and Ponder.
Serum Visions vs Imprisoned in the Moon: I imagine giving blue the enchanment might round out the color more.
Baral, Chief of Compliancee vs Thing in the Ice: I'm thinking Thing for the flavor here.
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I think you want both Baral and Thing to support a spells matters deck, or maybe run neither. I was expecting Baral to be better, but after playing it more I think Thing is the more impressive effect. I have both in right now, but I think I'd cut Baral first if I were to let one go.
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Can you expand on this? I think I have an idea why and probably will end up agreeing, but still wanna hear why.
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I haven't played Baral or Thing. Thing looks really swingy but clearly requires a deck to maximize. Cost reducers are really only good in combo - storm or something - (a good spells matter deck won't benefit much from it IMO since you want a large number of 1CC cards), so that is going to be very cube dependent I feel. That said a 1/3 for 2 is serviceable in control even without the perk.
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Cut one: Abyssal Persecutor, Gonti, Redcap.
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Abyssal Persecutor is my favorite of the three simply because of how much fun it is to play and how many interesting game situations it tends to create. Really great design. The "drawback" is mostly flavor text in actual play. I've never seen anyone lose to it. Your opponent has to respect that you probably have an answer, so letting that thing get them below zero health is extremely precarious. It's pretty rare when the persecutor player has to off him. Your opponent will almost always do it for you because 6/6 flying tramplers are a problem you generally can't ignore. Persecutor hits stupidly hard for a 4 drop, blocks like a champ too. Can't be chumped by anything other than a baneslayer. Card is game warpingly build-around good. I'd only second guess that card if your cube list is painfully short on sacrifice outlets. Most normal cubes can play persecutor with no issues at all. If you can run Bob, you can run persecutor.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
What? Bob is completely fine in a deck without sacrifice outlets, so it's not the same thing at all. I can't remember ever sacrificing my own Confidant to mitigate its drawback in this format. It just goes in low-curve decks and draws extra cards. And even if removing Confidant was critical to your gameplan for some reason, there are a lot of ways to remove it that don't work with Persecutor. Like 'Clamp, all of black's toughness-based removal and every burn spell in the cube.
On the other hand, I found the drawback on Persecutor to be very real, and I'd much rather use any big dumb beater that doesn't have the words "you can't win the game" on it, and just aim my removal at my opponent's creatures.
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I agree that the card creates interesting game play situations but I have trouble fitting it into decks. Aggro decks do not want to delay their clock by the amount of turns it will take you to find a sac outlet. I remember instances in aggro where they just kept the card in hand as the chance to draw burn to finish the deal where higher than the chance of getting a sacrifice outlet.
When behind, AP just blocks one guy. It has flying, but look how better the other black four drops are in this role. In attrition based matchups, Persecutor has the problem of not providing any value if being answered by removals and bounce. Especially bad are answers that keep him on board, such as Maze of Ith, Tamiyo etc.
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