MTG Salvation

Worldbreaker is my pick. Too much has to happen right in order to get great value from Vile Redeemer. It seems pretty average as you've experienced.

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I have a spot to test something in white. Pick one to keep:
Karakas vs Palace Jailer

How often does Karakas just play out as a plains? Does anyone have experience with Jailer in a power or unpowered cube? It's been pretty stellar in my peasant cube.

Pick one white 2 drop to keep:
Relic Seeker vs Leonin Relic-Warder

Definitely Seeker over Warder.

I've never cubed Karakas or Jailer. I think 4cc is too stacked in white, so I'd give Karakas a test over it.

Keep two:
Ajani Goldmane
Spectral Procession
Sram's Expertise

Cheers,
rant

Quote from steve_man »

Quote from rantipole »

Definitely Seeker over Warder.

I've never cubed Karakas or Jailer. I think 4cc is too stacked in white, so I'd give Karakas a test over it.

Keep two:
Ajani Goldmane
Spectral Procession
Sram's Expertise

Cheers,
rant

I'd keep Procession / Expertise.

Same, but I could see making the switch from Expertise back to Ajani over time.

Karakas is sometimes a Plains, but look how many legendary creature targets there are in most cubes. It's really easy for it to act as a repeatable free bounce which screws up plans totally. And that's before considering the potential of bouncing your own guys. People often talk about blink/bounce synergy, and this is one of the very few cheap and repeatable ways to do it. Without costing a card. You can save a key creature from death, too. Lots of applications.

With the Thalias, Isamaru, and now Kari Zev, it can be a way to protect early/important aggro beaters from sweeper effects and give you at least one body to start the rebuilding process with. It can also protect Barl from removal too. Each set seems to make Karakas more valuable.

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I was thinking that Karakas' stock kept increasing with the new sets so it might be worth it now. I'm not sure if I'm going to be running Baral, but definitely Kari.

I want to test out Fastbond in my cube. I'm thinking about cutting Polukranos, World Eater or Viridian Shaman. Which one should I keep ?I understand that green removal is premium and I don't have too much experience with Polukranos because my playgroup doesn't pick it, but it seems so slow. Being blown out by an instant spell as you try to activate the monstrosity for 4+ is a huge tempo loss. Polukranos is definitely cuttable at 450 right? I'm not missing some critical interaction here am I? I suppose I could just cut a mana dork for fastbond if World Eater is beast because they might be similar enough.

Polukranos is not a must-play creature at 450, no. Just make sure that you have enough supporting cards to break Fastbond; it can struggle as a face-value card.

I want to run 3 eldrazi titans in my cube.

I do not run any sneak attack or show and tell cards, but I do support super ramp and reanimator. It's a 450 unpowered cube.

Please rank the following eldrazi.

• Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
  
• Emrakul, the Promised End
  
• Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
  
• Kozilek, the Great Distortion
  
• Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
  
• Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
  
• Void Winnower

I agree with Steveman about the top 4

Quote from TalosMaximus »

I want to run 3 eldrazi titans in my cube.

I do not run any sneak attack or show and tell cards, but I do support super ramp and reanimator. It's a 450 unpowered cube.

Please rank the following eldrazi.

• Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
  
• Emrakul, the Promised End
  
• Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
  
• Kozilek, the Great Distortion
  
• Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
  
• Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
  
• Void Winnower

Emrakul, the Promised End - should see play in more decks than the rest as she is a solid finisher for some control shells
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - the most powerful eldrazi for reanimator and ramp
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - Cheapest eldrazi besides Emrakul and as lethal as any of them
Kozilek, the Great Distortion - narrow due to colorless, but is reanimatable which is significant if that is half of the archetypes that want the titans.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn - I'd say they are too narrow to run without Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Channel and the like

Quote from Magic-Jiffen »

But the problem from the point of a cube designer is:
Is it worth to reserve a slot in the cube for a card that is in most cases just a plains? Every slot in cube is very tight and should have a purpose.
There should be a high enough demand for Karakas by white drafters at a table, that Karakas is an average to low pick, which is totally fine. But I don't know if you have the slot in your cube.

Karakas is likely better for your cube than your weakest white card. Not only will it see vastly more play and raise the power level of decks, it will be a meaningful option more often during the draft process. After all, only 22-24 spells will see play in each deck, and even if we add nonbasic fixing and some sideboard options, we have some room for cards like this.

Quote from Metamind »

Emrakul, the Promised End - should see play in more decks than the rest as she is a solid finisher for some control shells
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - the most powerful eldrazi for reanimator and ramp
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - Cheapest eldrazi besides Emrakul and as lethal as any of them
Kozilek, the Great Distortion - narrow due to colorless, but is reanimatable which is significant if that is half of the archetypes that want the titans.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn - I'd say they are too narrow to run without Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Channel and the like

I agree with all of this. I think I like all three newer Eldrazi titans more than the old ones.

Quote from Metamind »

Karakas is likely better for your cube than your weakest white card. Not only will it see vastly more play and raise the power level of decks, it will be a meaningful option more often during the draft process. After all, only 22-24 spells will see play in each deck, and even if we add nonbasic fixing and some sideboard options, we have some room for cards like this.

I agree with this too. Karakas is often much more than a Plains. If you or your opponent play a legend in a given game, then it's relevant.

Quote from THUNDERWANG »

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I was thinking that Karakas' stock kept increasing with the new sets so it might be worth it now. I'm not sure if I'm going to be running Baral, but definitely Kari.

I want to test out Fastbond in my cube. I'm thinking about cutting Polukranos, World Eater or Viridian Shaman. Which one should I keep ?I understand that green removal is premium and I don't have too much experience with Polukranos because my playgroup doesn't pick it, but it seems so slow. Being blown out by an instant spell as you try to activate the monstrosity for 4+ is a huge tempo loss. Polukranos is definitely cuttable at 450 right? I'm not missing some critical interaction here am I? I suppose I could just cut a mana dork for fastbond if World Eater is beast because they might be similar enough.

Polukranos is expendable.

Warning: I've FINALLY made fastbond work with maximum effort to do so, and it's STILL only a fringe card that once every ~5 drafts creates a unique/cool archetype. Without maximum effort it's unplayable.

Critical cards (in aprox order):
Crucible of worlds/Zuran orb (infinite combo potential is what really defines the archetype)
Strip mine
Time spiral
Time twister
Life from the loam
Memory Jar
Wheel of fortune
Courser of Kruphix

Important cards:
Lotus Cobra
Oracle of mul daya
Wasteland
Horizon Canopy
Enlightened tutor
Tireless Tracker
X spells (big mana payoff)

Supplemental cards:
Gitrog monster
Molten Vortex
Heartbeat of spring/Mana flare

Thanks for the replies. Before I made my post earlier, I searched the forums board and read the SCD for Karakas. The last post was written in July 2015 so I probably shouldn't be surprised now if sentiments have developed or changed for Karakas. It's been a year and a half since and if testing has led to positive results since, I'll slip it in my cube and give it a shot.

@Lucid Vision: Thanks for the list of critical cards. Fortunately, I run almost all of those cards except Zuran Orb, Life from the Loam, and the supplemental cards. I'm just not sure if I can stomach slotting in Orb because a 3 card combo is significantly harder to assemble in a limited environment than a 2 card combo (correct me if I'm wrong). Is Life from the Loam too narrow for cubes? I haven't been able to find too much information on Life from the Loam on the boards here.

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Pick one to keep: Sram's Expertise vs Secure the Wastes: I'm thinking aboout going to go with Sram's because of the novelty and tempo. Expertise doesn't scale as well with Secure the Wastes late game, but it does a much better job earlier in the game.


I do want to bring up another card that's been on my mind: Rancor. I imagine that this card shines brighter if you support green aggro, but for those who do not, does this card still deserve a slot in your cubes? It's a pretty fair card and for cubes that are heavily powered, I think this card might get passed on quite a bit.

Yes, a 3 card combo is harder to assemble... but both zuran orb and fastbond are late picks, so it's not too rare to assemble the combo. Especially if you play with a large % of the cube in your drafts.

Zuran orb also has uses outside of the combo, much more so than something like voltaic key in the timevault combo. Quite good in wildfire/balance decks. Good with crucible of worlds without fast bond etc.
It's also a powerful anti-red sideboard card, if that appeals to you.

Loam is quite narrow. It's always on the cusp of being cut, but has some interesting decks that come together once and a while where it's a great card. Fastbond decks can reach critical mass of cards without loam, if that's the only thing missing.

So with the talk of Karakas I have got to ask:
Karakas vs. Kjeldoran Outpost?

I am running a powered 360, but have been playing since Kjeldoran Outpost was a powerhouse during Ice Age and Mirage. At that time Karakas was $3. I have a hard time with the nostalgia aspect of cube...

I love Loam, and I don't even play the Fastbond support.

Karakas > Outpost.

Quote from THUNDERWANG »

Thanks for the replies. Before I made my post earlier, I searched the forums board and read the SCD for Karakas. The last post was written in July 2015 so I probably shouldn't be surprised now if sentiments have developed or changed for Karakas. It's been a year and a half since and if testing has led to positive results since, I'll slip it in my cube and give it a shot.

@Lucid Vision: Thanks for the list of critical cards. Fortunately, I run almost all of those cards except Zuran Orb, Life from the Loam, and the supplemental cards. I'm just not sure if I can stomach slotting in Orb because a 3 card combo is significantly harder to assemble in a limited environment than a 2 card combo (correct me if I'm wrong). Is Life from the Loam too narrow for cubes? I haven't been able to find too much information on Life from the Loam on the boards here.

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Pick one to keep: Sram's Expertise vs Secure the Wastes: I'm thinking aboout going to go with Sram's because of the novelty and tempo. Expertise doesn't scale as well with Secure the Wastes late game, but it does a much better job earlier in the game.


I do want to bring up another card that's been on my mind: Rancor. I imagine that this card shines brighter if you support green aggro, but for those who do not, does this card still deserve a slot in your cubes? It's a pretty fair card and for cubes that are heavily powered, I think this card might get passed on quite a bit.

It is hard to say about the two white cards without testing SE. I do not play green aggro, and ran Rancor for a short while after that decision. It had no home and got cut quite quickly.

Quote from oakcitylarry »

So with the talk of Karakas I have got to ask:
Karakas vs. Kjeldoran Outpost?

Karakas. Easier to include in decks (as easy as they come in fact), usually has more impact and does something unique in white.

Dance of the Dead vs. Necromancy?

If you're already running animate dead, then I prefer Necromancy. The upkeep cost on dance can be annoying and the ability to flash a creature in one for turn can be useful.

Necromancy is way better. But if you're playing reanimator as an archetype, the answer is both.

wtwlf123,

Your reply has sparked my interest in providing additional details. I run a 360 cube, and do try to support reanimator as an archetype. It may be that I am trying to cram to 10 lbs into a 5 lbs bag.

For reanimator I include the following reanimation spells/creatures:
Reanimate
Exhume
Living Death
Animate Dead
Necromancy
Recurring Nightmare
Nezumi Graverobber
Karmic Guide
Reveillark

The following discard outlets:
Dack Fayden
Kolaghan's Command
Psychatog
Survival of the Fittest
Wheel of Fortune
Faithless Looting
Firestorm
Mind Twist
Smallpox
Thoughtseize
Liliana of the Veil
Pack Rat
Fact or Fiction
Frantic Search
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

And the following popular reanimation targets (although others will do as well)
Baneslayer Angel
Sun Titan
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Consecrated Sphinx
Palinchron
Grave Titan
Griselbrand
Crater Hellion
Inferno Titan
Greater Gargadon
Primeval Titan
Hornet Queen
Terastodon
Woodfall Primus
Steel Hellkite
Wurmcoil Engine
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan

Of course the monsters are fought over by other archetypes that I am trying to support, ramp, tinker, sneak attack/show and tell. I am trying to keep all of the monsters as castable as possible, but a couple (Griselbrand) are on the edge of that now.

In black specifically I am trying to also support aggro, pox (Braids/Smokestacks), a decent amount of discard, and a few tutors. Black also has great sweepers and spot removal, so those need a spot too.

One thing I have really noticed since I started lurking here several years ago is that the number of people running small cubes (~360) has really decreased. I think this may have to do with the quality of the cardpool more than any other factor. I can't imagine that peoples drafting groups of grown so much that a 720 card cube is needed.

I don't get the opportunity to cube very often at all. In fact I haven't drafted my cube since July (well, cubetutor). This makes it extremely hard to tell how balanced the cube is. For now, this cube is mostly a thought exercise even though it really exists. I hope in a couple of years my kids will be old enough to get the concept of drafting and the fun will begin.

If anyone is interested in looking at my list when commenting on my post it it #376 on cubetutor.