Persecutor needs a strong sacrifice theme. If you have that, it's really really good (and a lot of fun to build around). If you don't, it comes with a pretty big liability so I can see why some wouldn't want to run it.
My 2 cents is New Drana is being slightly overhyped. It's going to be great in limited because removal is generally lacking there. In cube however, it won't be that good (because removal is so much better and abundant). She needs other dudes and they all need to live a turn or two before you are on value train. All by herself, she is slow and there are a half dozen more powerful black 3 drops you could run.
I'm not saying New Drana isn't going to be very good especially with strong black aggro support (she should be worth a slot in cubes pushing that). Just that it's not better than other options in a vacuum. I've heard more than one person call this the black Brimaz, and that to me is ridiculous.
I said it before, but Drana is not black Brimaz. I consider that to be Ophiomancer. Now that card is ridiculous on so many level. Flesh Carver is not so far behind either.
@Spike, I'll probably cut Price, then Edict and Hexmage last.
My 2 cents is New Drana is being slightly overhyped. It's going to be great in limited because removal is generally lacking there. In cube however, it won't be that good (because removal is so much better and abundant). She needs other dudes and they all need to live a turn or two before you are on value train. All by herself, she is slow and there are a half dozen more powerful black 3 drops you could run.
After seeing her in action, I don't think this is anywhere close to true. By herself, she's a solid 3-drop for black aggro. A 2/3 flying first strike for 3 is already decent value. Tack on the ability to incrementally pump - even just herself - and her value sky rockets. Just out of curiosity, what are the other six more powerful black 3-drops that you could be running? I'll give you Flesh Carver and Ophiomancer, possibly even Mardu Strike Leader, but after that I think the power level kind of evens out. I could see running Drana over any of the other commonly ran options at 3cc in black. I like her more than Hippy, Nighthawk, and Silumgar Assassin (assuming you count that as a 3). And I'd rank her about even with both Liliana, Heretical Healer and Master of the Feast. Even then, I'd give the nod to Drana just because she's new and deserves at least a test run. So even if your cube is 360 and can only find room for four or five black 3-drops, running Drana over anything other than the top three is fine. She might even prove to be one of those top three, honestly. She's pretty damn good.
To touch on the subject of Abyssal Persecutor, I'd certainly run her over that guy. If he was actually just a four mana 6/6 flyer, he'd be a staple, but requiring me to jump through the hoop of finding a way to get rid of him is too much of a liability.
Just out of curiosity, what are the other six more powerful black 3-drops that you could be running? I'll give you Flesh Carver and Ophiomancer, possibly even Mardu Strike Leader, but after that I think the power level kind of evens out. I could see running Drana over any of the other commonly ran options at 3cc in black. I like her more than Hippy, Nighthawk, and Silumgar Assassin (assuming you count that as a 3). And I'd rank her about even with both Liliana, Heretical Healer and Master of the Feast. Even then, I'd give the nod to Drana just because she's new and deserves at least a test run. So even if your cube is 360 and can only find room for four or five black 3-drops, running Drana over anything other than the top three is fine.
That's fair. You support black aggro though, right? She's a great fit there. I don't think anyone who runs black aggro is going to come back and say she isn't worth a slot in the cube. I just don't think she's insane is all. I see her as a black hellrider. Solid card in the right deck, but without other things on the board it's going to be pretty average. If my opponent plays that against me, I have time to deal with it assuming I've kept him from building an army. And if he built an army and I had no response, wouldn't he be doing just as well with a number of other 3 drops?
My black section looks a bit different though, so we aren't comparing apples to oranges. I like Geralf's Messenger more than New Drana in my list (it's a zombie and part of the recursive theme plus it support mono black). I still run Haakon because it ties in so well with zombies and recursive decks. Neither card is more powerful than New Drana in a vacuum, but these guys are key cards in my current cube anyway. I really like black focusing on recursive threats. It's super flavorful. White and red have plenty of support cards for "team" mechanics (green does too). Black is about losing life and putting threats in play that are difficult to get rid of (in my cube).
I also think Hippie is more impactful the first swing (random discard is just brutal). New Drana is better after the first swing with a team, but over here that isn't going to happen more than Hippie destroying hands will. Vampire Nighthawk has a lower ceiling but it is playable in every black deck in existence. It's good in aggressive decks. It's an amazing blocker. The life gain is super relevant in black. Deathtouch on a flyer is impactful at all stages of the game, first strike usually isn't. I also still run Bone Shredder because it combos with so many things (not suggesting it's better, but New Drana doesn't replace it functionally).
Black also has several key non-creature cards at this CC, so it's just a very competitive slot unfortunately.
Yeah, black has a wealth of riches now and there are lots of possibilities for all kinds of sections. And Geralf's Messenger is a beast if you support mono-black as a deck. Ahadabans, I'm interested to see your list if you would add a link in your signature.
If you support all the decks that want Ulamog (reanimator, fatty-cheating and super-ramp) I'd agree with Goodking's ranking. Otherwise, I'd put it behind Karn.
If you support all the decks that want Ulamog (reanimator, fatty-cheating and super-ramp) I'd agree with Goodking's ranking. Otherwise, I'd put it behind Karn.
In a 360 cube, I have 4 mana fixers for eacho color pair.
For budget reasons, there are no Revised Duals, just Shocks and fetches.
The 3rd slot is sometimes a signet, sometimes a painland.
For the 4th slot, do you prefer:
In a 360 cube, I have 4 mana fixers for eacho color pair.
For budget reasons, there are no Revised Duals, just Shocks and fetches.
The 3rd slot is sometimes a signet, sometimes a painland.
For the 4th slot, do you prefer:
Falls. Manland=awesome
Vent. See: being awesome.
Prairie. When bounce lands work, they're great, and when they don't they're horrendous. At least stream is fetch able and doesn't make you return a land.
Hollow. See: above.
Reaches. See: being awesome.
Agreed on all of the above. I couldn't wait to get the Ravnica bounce lands out of my cube, they're way too durdly and risky for this format. I'd rank BFZ duals, checks, and pain lands over bounce lands in any color combination.
I'm having trouble understanding why a lot of people are valuing Vampire Hexmage over Ultimate Price. Splashable instant speed creature removal that hits the majority of creatures in the cube seems better to me than BB sorcery speed removal that pretty much only hits planeswalkers or acts as a hard to cast Youthful Knight. Ruinous Path seems like it fills the primary role of VH pretty nicely, and does quite a bit more for 1 more, on top of providing pseudo-card advantage in the later game. What am I missing here?
Also, could Malicious Affliction be a better cut for RP than any of the above?
Looking at blue 3's, cut one, and please explain why:
Black has a ton of answers to creatures, but answers to 'walkers are still much more scarce. And a 2-power first strike body isn't irrelevant in this format while it waits around to blank a 'walker. That's why I prefer Hexmage to Price.
I like Affliction more than Price too.
I'd cut Kira from that group, because unless you want the 1UU for devotion decks, it's not a great casting cost.
My 2 cents is New Drana is being slightly overhyped. It's going to be great in limited because removal is generally lacking there. In cube however, it won't be that good (because removal is so much better and abundant). She needs other dudes and they all need to live a turn or two before you are on value train. All by herself, she is slow and there are a half dozen more powerful black 3 drops you could run.
I'm not saying New Drana isn't going to be very good especially with strong black aggro support (she should be worth a slot in cubes pushing that). Just that it's not better than other options in a vacuum. I've heard more than one person call this the black Brimaz, and that to me is ridiculous.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
@Spike, I'll probably cut Price, then Edict and Hexmage last.
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After seeing her in action, I don't think this is anywhere close to true. By herself, she's a solid 3-drop for black aggro. A 2/3 flying first strike for 3 is already decent value. Tack on the ability to incrementally pump - even just herself - and her value sky rockets. Just out of curiosity, what are the other six more powerful black 3-drops that you could be running? I'll give you Flesh Carver and Ophiomancer, possibly even Mardu Strike Leader, but after that I think the power level kind of evens out. I could see running Drana over any of the other commonly ran options at 3cc in black. I like her more than Hippy, Nighthawk, and Silumgar Assassin (assuming you count that as a 3). And I'd rank her about even with both Liliana, Heretical Healer and Master of the Feast. Even then, I'd give the nod to Drana just because she's new and deserves at least a test run. So even if your cube is 360 and can only find room for four or five black 3-drops, running Drana over anything other than the top three is fine. She might even prove to be one of those top three, honestly. She's pretty damn good.
To touch on the subject of Abyssal Persecutor, I'd certainly run her over that guy. If he was actually just a four mana 6/6 flyer, he'd be a staple, but requiring me to jump through the hoop of finding a way to get rid of him is too much of a liability.
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Keep Edict for sure; I'd likely cut Hexmage first and then Price but I'm not sure. I don't run either of those at 450.
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I agree with that.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
That's fair. You support black aggro though, right? She's a great fit there. I don't think anyone who runs black aggro is going to come back and say she isn't worth a slot in the cube. I just don't think she's insane is all. I see her as a black hellrider. Solid card in the right deck, but without other things on the board it's going to be pretty average. If my opponent plays that against me, I have time to deal with it assuming I've kept him from building an army. And if he built an army and I had no response, wouldn't he be doing just as well with a number of other 3 drops?
My black section looks a bit different though, so we aren't comparing apples to oranges. I like Geralf's Messenger more than New Drana in my list (it's a zombie and part of the recursive theme plus it support mono black). I still run Haakon because it ties in so well with zombies and recursive decks. Neither card is more powerful than New Drana in a vacuum, but these guys are key cards in my current cube anyway. I really like black focusing on recursive threats. It's super flavorful. White and red have plenty of support cards for "team" mechanics (green does too). Black is about losing life and putting threats in play that are difficult to get rid of (in my cube).
I also think Hippie is more impactful the first swing (random discard is just brutal). New Drana is better after the first swing with a team, but over here that isn't going to happen more than Hippie destroying hands will. Vampire Nighthawk has a lower ceiling but it is playable in every black deck in existence. It's good in aggressive decks. It's an amazing blocker. The life gain is super relevant in black. Deathtouch on a flyer is impactful at all stages of the game, first strike usually isn't. I also still run Bone Shredder because it combos with so many things (not suggesting it's better, but New Drana doesn't replace it functionally).
Black also has several key non-creature cards at this CC, so it's just a very competitive slot unfortunately.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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I only got so many rooms for big colorless fatties. What's your guys preference?
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100% agree.
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For budget reasons, there are no Revised Duals, just Shocks and fetches.
The 3rd slot is sometimes a signet, sometimes a painland.
For the 4th slot, do you prefer:
Yavimaya Coast or Lumbering Falls?
Isolated Chapel or Shambling Vent?
Azorius Chancery or Prairie Stream? No budget for Celestial Colonnade.
Dimir Aqueduct or Sunken Hollow? No budget for Creeping Tar Pit.
Lavaclaw Reaches or Smoldering Marsh?
Falls. Manland=awesome
Vent. See: being awesome.
Prairie. When bounce lands work, they're great, and when they don't they're horrendous. At least stream is fetch able and doesn't make you return a land.
Hollow. See: above.
Reaches. See: being awesome.
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I'm having trouble understanding why a lot of people are valuing Vampire Hexmage over Ultimate Price. Splashable instant speed creature removal that hits the majority of creatures in the cube seems better to me than BB sorcery speed removal that pretty much only hits planeswalkers or acts as a hard to cast Youthful Knight. Ruinous Path seems like it fills the primary role of VH pretty nicely, and does quite a bit more for 1 more, on top of providing pseudo-card advantage in the later game. What am I missing here?
Also, could Malicious Affliction be a better cut for RP than any of the above?
Looking at blue 3's, cut one, and please explain why:
Serendib Efreet vs. Stratus Dancer vs. Kira, the Great Glass-Spinner
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I like Affliction more than Price too.
I'd cut Kira from that group, because unless you want the 1UU for devotion decks, it's not a great casting cost.
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Edric, Spymaster of Trest
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@Niphred: Cut Kiora.
Cut Kiora. It's probably the #4 card.
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Could Clutch of Currents be good in cube as support for a blue tempo deck?
How does it compare to something like Vapor Snag or maybe Harbinger of the Tides or Thought Scour?
That would have been great as an instant. As is, I think I prefer Silent Departure over it (which has played well actually).
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/