I know Huntmaster of the Fells has been discussed before, but I wanted to see what people thought now that he's been out for a while.
For perspective, I looked at Eidolon's data. There are 2 solid 360 staples, Kird Ape and Bloodbraid Elf. 450 adds Sarkhan Vol and Raging Ravine. I've also seen Stormbind in cubes. I'm interested to see where Huntmaster fits in with those cards.
Personally, RG aggro seems somewhat weak, and the colors seems better as mid-range. I think the Huntmaster is a solid mid-range card, and offers more interesting game-play choices than Sarkhan Vol. I have never played with Ravine in cube, it seems okay, probably pretty close to Huntmaster in a vacuum, but worse when you're losing and better when you've got the initiative.
When my friend and I discuss Huntmaster in our cube, we often compare it (appropriately) to Bloodbraid Elf, which we also run.
Our conclusions have come to this: Bloodbraid Elf adds a lot more raw power and aggression, whereas Huntmaster's effect is more consistent and and defensive.
While BBE is more powerfull overall, Huntmaster's variation makes it an inclusion in our cube as well. Plus, once you're setting up your Huntmaster for profit, you giggle a little bit.
I think it's the 3rd best card behind Kird Ape and BB Elf. He's awesome. I switch him out with Stormbind. While I do miss Stormbind, I don't think I'll be switching back.
I haven't tested with it enough, but I wouldn't want to cut Stormbind because of the uniqueness of the effect. I love me value as much as anyone, but I like Stormbind as a card that certain decks just can't possibly beat.
I've been intending to try a project where I build a much more heavily multicolored cube and try to get a handle on all of the issues with still making aggro work there -- Huntmaster definitely gets a slot as soon as I have more than 1 'Bloodbraid slot'.
If I were using the "x slots, can be land or nonland" philosophy for my multicolor sections, I'd probably run Huntmaster over Ravine, but I like running the manlands to soften wraths further.
i like the card more than stormbind and raging ravine. i think it's about on par with vol. it's definitely great in midrange but i think it's a fine curve topper for slower aggro decks.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
My pick for 3rd best multicolor card in the cube...basically on par with Bloodbraid Elf (and this is coming from a person who snap-first-picks BBE over almost anything). This card NEEDS to be in cubes...it's stupid-good.
I'm pretty sure I would run Huntmaster of the Fells as my second GR card if I would allow double faced cards. That guy is just value all around, quite ridiculous actually.
It wasn't much better than any of the other 4cc creatures in the cube, and he doesn't guarantee near enough value to justify being a 4cc gold card. Bloodbraid makes this thing look silly bad, as do a handful of mono-colored creatures in both green and red. I think he's probably the 5th or 6th best card in RG, and I'd be looking to include it somewhere around 630 cards. The other options in that guild are far more important and unique than just an average value 4-drop. Unless it somehow goes crazy and flip-flops back and fourth turn after turn (which he doesn't/shouldn't) what are you guaranteed? 4-power and 2 life for 4 mana? Unimpressive.
I think if you run the Huntmaster, you are hoping he flips a time or two. It's an important feature of the card, since, I agree, at a simple four mana for 2 2/2s and 2 life it wouldn't be worth playing. The fact that he can and does flip makes him a wortwhile and unique add (I don't really value uniqueness but you seem to). How many other werewolves are you running after all? Two targets for four mana is also decent, and a useful feature. I like Huntmaster over Stormbind, and the lackluster Sarkhan, that's for sure.
I've found Sarkhan far from lackluster (the word I'd use to describe the Huntmaster adequately) and he's not nearly as important as Stormbind. It didn't flip much when we were testing it (none of the wolves did), and the body that has to survive is a 2/2. They can easily kill it with everything before it ever becomes a problem. Paying 4 mana and getting the same (or less) value than I do with Obstinate Baloth (another card I don't think is good enough for med/small cubes) just doesn't hack it for a gold card.
We've had nothing but success with Huntmaster. I cut Sarkhan Vol for him and haven't looked back. I've successfully flipped Huntmaster several times, whether it's in aggro decks where you run him as a curve topper so you literally don't have any plays the turn after you play him (or your hand is all instants like bolt), or in RUG control decks where I was happy to pass the turn with countermagic up. I've also ramped him out T3 in green and had my opponent simply not have a T3 play.
Vol used to go really late in drafts, and not get played at all. He's pretty underwhelming the turn he comes down, which I think is important in those colors. He's great if you have him later, but he's hard to protect since his ability encourages you to attack with all of your dudes, so you don't have blockers.
Importantly, I think, Huntmaster is causing people to splash for him the way bloodbraid does. base green or red decks see huntmaster go by and try to splash the other color to fit him in. I almost never had that happen with Sarkhan. I think he's pretty clearly in the top R/G cards (BBE #1, then #2 is either huntmaster or Kird Ape)
We had the opposite experience. Players wanted the unique effects that Vol brought, and didn't care so much about the redundant Huntmaster. Vol is one of the only Threaten effects. One of the only Fires effects. One of the few anthem effects for RG. And it has an easily obtainable ultimate, that pretty much auto-wins (I think he's gone ultimate more than any other 'walker in my cube, even after taking a 6-month hiatus when I was at 360, none of the other planeswalkers came close to catching his numbers). And all of his abilities combine with other effects in the cube to make him even more valuable. He's so much more unique than the Huntmaster, who was just another playable 4-drop for Gruul.
I've found Sarkhan far from lackluster (the word I'd use to describe the Huntmaster adequately) and he's not nearly as important as Stormbind. It didn't flip much when we were testing it (none of the wolves did), and the body that has to survive is a 2/2. They can easily kill it with everything before it ever becomes a problem. Paying 4 mana and getting the same (or less) value than I do with Obstinate Baloth (another card I don't think is good enough for med/small cubes) just doesn't hack it for a gold card.
Surely there's quite a bit of value in FORCING a removal spell. Baloth's 4/4 body is much less of a threat than huntmasters 2/2 body.
If your opponent doesn't answer him, the upside is pretty significant.
It's not like every hand has 5 removal spells. Getting them to discard a removal spell helps all your other threats, and if they don't, huntmaster can do some sweet things.
Vol's abilities are just totally at odds with one another. His + ability, if used to attack makes him less safe, and more vulnerable to a lethal counter-swing. His -2 ability steals a creature, and then kindly returns it so that on the opponent's turn that creature can kill Vol. Vol rarely survived to ultimate, and he was in the cube for a long time. What I did end up seeing was a lot of conservative play where he got the +1 boost, and no creatures swung out. I won't miss him.
Stormbind is more powerful, but fits in less archetypes than Huntmaster. Stormbind, at least how I see it, is often a worse Sulfuric Vortex. That effect is so powerful, I would run redundant copies if I had space, like Words of War, Rivalry, or Ankh of Mishra-style effects. They all provide hard to stop damage that can close the deal for aggro.
Vol is probably better if you support green aggro. I dont, my cube is more green ramp, and Huntmaster of the Fells is much better in a ramp deck than Sarkhan Vol
Stormbind is fine, basically an easier-to-cast Seismic Assault with an activation cost. I think that Big Jim is basically right that aggressive decks want some way to close out the game, and Sulfuric Vortex (with its prohibition on life gain) and Ankh of Mishra are two of the best. I wouldn't run Words, though Rivalry is fine. I'd place Stormbind a bit lower than others. I just don't think it's all that amazing, especially without green aggro support in my cube.
Vol has never been disappointing and has led to some truly remarkable cube games of epicness.
To answer the poster who said his abilities were contradictory...all I can ask is if you have played with him or not? If you are alpha striking with all your creatures and vol's +1...odds are you are swinging for the win. His - abilities has led to innumerable shenanigans. To illustrate an example, I lost a game this weekend to sarkhon. I was rolling W/B aggro and about to swing for the win the next turn. My opponent had an empty board. My opponent drops sarkhan, steals my silverblade, equips his sword of feast and famine and proceeds to deal the last 7 damage from nowhere. That was a pretty strong play.
@ Big Jim: I agree about Stormbind. Is it going to be broken? Probably not. But it's going to be a reliable source of finishing damage that you can use to put games away that combat damage can't seal for you. Which is why I think it's a more important card for the cube. It's not always about what's better in a vacuum, or what the BCS comparisons look like; it's about what's needed. And extra Vortex imitators are clutch.
Quote from LucidVision »
If your opponent doesn't answer him, the upside is pretty significant.
I'd say the same thing about Sarkhan, but with 10x the emphasis.
Quote from the42up »
Vol has never been disappointing and has led to some truly remarkable cube games of epicness.
I concur. Not only are the abilities unique, but they're all really powerful. Fires, Anthems and Threatens aren't attached to many cube cards, particularly not in red and green. So he provides a unique effect, and he's a threat that must be answered right away, or else your opponent will have 20 power worth of dragons coming for their face, and fast.
Quote from Torggo »
Vol is probably better if you support green aggro. I dont, my cube is more green ramp, and Huntmaster of the Fells is much better in a ramp deck than Sarkhan Vol
I like Vol in mid-range, and especially in ramp. It can combo with a lot of cards, and the fires effect is really strong there. It may actually be better in mid-range than it is in aggro. The only deck that I'd prefer the Huntmaster in is some sort of RG control. Huntmaster is an excellent creature against aggro. Which isn't something I typically need in RG, because it's often a mid-range color, which already has an advantageous matchup against aggro. Vol, on the other hand, is a great card for mid-range to shore up the weakness against control, which is a needed effect.
I like the Huntmaster a lot more than both Stormbind and Kird Ape. However I wouldn't include the card over Sarkhan Vol or even BBE.
I was also thinking about cutting Kird Ape. It's hard because that card is so nostalgic for me, but since RG is often a midrange color, it's a blocker more than an attacker for 2. Add to that, I often don't draft with 8 and so it's possible not to get any fetches/duals in RG.
I think we all agree BBE is awesome. I can see arguments for or against Sarkhan and Stormbind, so that leaves Kird Ape in the pantheon of includes. I am wary of having all 4-drops in RG...
I tried out Sarkhan Vol and cut him for being underwhelming.
I havn't tried Huntmaster in my cube yet, although I'm having a blast with him in standard. I think I will add him to the cube soon. I don't balance gold, but I think he's better than any of the RG spells other than BBE.
I think Huntmaster is amazing and played it over Stormbind in my 360. It's great in R/G aggro and R/G mid-range, and while there are lots of 4 drops in those archetypes, it's one of the better ones. It's nutty in 4cc and 5cc with blink/bounce (and it gains you life to boot).
I think I would play him in every cube at 450+, and if your playgroup really likes him (know thy playgroup) consider it over Stormbind at 360.
I think the order of R/G cards (for us anyway) goes:
Bloodbraid Elf
Kird Ape
Huntsmaster of the Fells
Stormbind
Sarkhan Vol
other stuff
For perspective, I looked at Eidolon's data. There are 2 solid 360 staples, Kird Ape and Bloodbraid Elf. 450 adds Sarkhan Vol and Raging Ravine. I've also seen Stormbind in cubes. I'm interested to see where Huntmaster fits in with those cards.
Personally, RG aggro seems somewhat weak, and the colors seems better as mid-range. I think the Huntmaster is a solid mid-range card, and offers more interesting game-play choices than Sarkhan Vol. I have never played with Ravine in cube, it seems okay, probably pretty close to Huntmaster in a vacuum, but worse when you're losing and better when you've got the initiative.
Our conclusions have come to this: Bloodbraid Elf adds a lot more raw power and aggression, whereas Huntmaster's effect is more consistent and and defensive.
While BBE is more powerfull overall, Huntmaster's variation makes it an inclusion in our cube as well. Plus, once you're setting up your Huntmaster for profit, you giggle a little bit.
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I've been intending to try a project where I build a much more heavily multicolored cube and try to get a handle on all of the issues with still making aggro work there -- Huntmaster definitely gets a slot as soon as I have more than 1 'Bloodbraid slot'.
If I were using the "x slots, can be land or nonland" philosophy for my multicolor sections, I'd probably run Huntmaster over Ravine, but I like running the manlands to soften wraths further.
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Vol used to go really late in drafts, and not get played at all. He's pretty underwhelming the turn he comes down, which I think is important in those colors. He's great if you have him later, but he's hard to protect since his ability encourages you to attack with all of your dudes, so you don't have blockers.
Importantly, I think, Huntmaster is causing people to splash for him the way bloodbraid does. base green or red decks see huntmaster go by and try to splash the other color to fit him in. I almost never had that happen with Sarkhan. I think he's pretty clearly in the top R/G cards (BBE #1, then #2 is either huntmaster or Kird Ape)
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Surely there's quite a bit of value in FORCING a removal spell. Baloth's 4/4 body is much less of a threat than huntmasters 2/2 body.
If your opponent doesn't answer him, the upside is pretty significant.
It's not like every hand has 5 removal spells. Getting them to discard a removal spell helps all your other threats, and if they don't, huntmaster can do some sweet things.
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To answer the poster who said his abilities were contradictory...all I can ask is if you have played with him or not? If you are alpha striking with all your creatures and vol's +1...odds are you are swinging for the win. His - abilities has led to innumerable shenanigans. To illustrate an example, I lost a game this weekend to sarkhon. I was rolling W/B aggro and about to swing for the win the next turn. My opponent had an empty board. My opponent drops sarkhan, steals my silverblade, equips his sword of feast and famine and proceeds to deal the last 7 damage from nowhere. That was a pretty strong play.
I'd say the same thing about Sarkhan, but with 10x the emphasis.
I concur. Not only are the abilities unique, but they're all really powerful. Fires, Anthems and Threatens aren't attached to many cube cards, particularly not in red and green. So he provides a unique effect, and he's a threat that must be answered right away, or else your opponent will have 20 power worth of dragons coming for their face, and fast.
I like Vol in mid-range, and especially in ramp. It can combo with a lot of cards, and the fires effect is really strong there. It may actually be better in mid-range than it is in aggro. The only deck that I'd prefer the Huntmaster in is some sort of RG control. Huntmaster is an excellent creature against aggro. Which isn't something I typically need in RG, because it's often a mid-range color, which already has an advantageous matchup against aggro. Vol, on the other hand, is a great card for mid-range to shore up the weakness against control, which is a needed effect.
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I was also thinking about cutting Kird Ape. It's hard because that card is so nostalgic for me, but since RG is often a midrange color, it's a blocker more than an attacker for 2. Add to that, I often don't draft with 8 and so it's possible not to get any fetches/duals in RG.
I think we all agree BBE is awesome. I can see arguments for or against Sarkhan and Stormbind, so that leaves Kird Ape in the pantheon of includes. I am wary of having all 4-drops in RG...
I havn't tried Huntmaster in my cube yet, although I'm having a blast with him in standard. I think I will add him to the cube soon. I don't balance gold, but I think he's better than any of the RG spells other than BBE.
I think I would play him in every cube at 450+, and if your playgroup really likes him (know thy playgroup) consider it over Stormbind at 360.
I think the order of R/G cards (for us anyway) goes:
Bloodbraid Elf
Kird Ape
Huntsmaster of the Fells
Stormbind
Sarkhan Vol
other stuff
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